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  #76   ^
Old Wed, Aug-20-03, 16:21
rhaazz's Avatar
rhaazz rhaazz is offline
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Lisa N I love your posts and you have helped me many many times. You have given me strength and patience to stay with this diet. Also I LOVE some of your very scientific posts. Love love love them -- you answer my questions.

But you know -- we don't have to choose between being all pro- or anti-study, you know? My husband is a scientist and he was shocked to learn (in grad school) that good, reputable scientists do skew their results. They're not "lying" exactly -- just selectively viewing their results so as to confirm hypotheses (and promote their research). (It's not quite like picking patterns out of the stars to see "constellations" when the stars are actually random, but it's a little bit comparable to that.)

That doesn't mean scientists have nothing to offer (I agree, this anti-LC guy is a little extreme in seeming to reject ALL scientific evidence). It turns out Gregor Mendel exaggerated/falsified some of his results, as we now know, but that doesn't mean he didn't do good science or make useful discoveries.

I don't know about you, but I used to believe all the authorities that said that animal fat in one's diet was absolutely deadly. Now I'm annoyed that the authorities were really lying to me (and that's not the first time). So this whole LC experience has made me much more distrustful of medical authority in general.
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  #77   ^
Old Wed, Aug-20-03, 16:40
Lisa N's Avatar
Lisa N Lisa N is offline
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Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
Stats: 260/-/145 Female 5' 3"
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Location: Michigan
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Quote:
My husband is a scientist and he was shocked to learn (in grad school) that good, reputable scientists do skew their results. They're not "lying" exactly -- just selectively viewing their results so as to confirm hypotheses (and promote their research).


Hi Rhazz!

Yes, I do realize that this happens. However, as I noted before, one study doesn't necessarily prove anything, but when the results can be duplicated by a variety of scientists (with different motivations), that tends to show that the results are reliable and accurate.
Studies can also be skewed to achieve a desired result, but again that is often obvious when you read the details of the study and know what you are reading (a good example of this is the studies that have "proved" high fat and saturated fat to cause cardiac disease).
Distrust of ALL studies because the above has happened on occasion borders on paranoia and is really throwing out the baby with the bathwater. You can either throw up your hands in frustration and say "I just don't know WHAT to believe" and ignore and disbelieve it all (and what a state we would all be in if everyone did that!) or you can educate yourself so that you can see the difference between a sound study and one where the results have been deliberately skewed through the methods of the study or where information has been deliberately ignored in favor of the results that the researchers were after.
In an unscientific way, all of us who are following a low carb lifestyle are verifying the results of the studies that have been done by duplicating the results in our own lives and experience.

Quote:
I don't know about you, but I used to believe all the authorities that said that animal fat in one's diet was absolutely deadly. Now I'm annoyed that the authorities were really lying to me (and that's not the first time). So this whole LC experience has made me much more distrustful of medical authority in general.


To be honest, with what I know it never made a great deal of sense to me and I never completely followed the "low fat" recommendation (I've always refused to give up butter in favor of margarine, for example) and the high carb recommendations also didn't make a lot of sense to me in regards to diabetes since diabetes is by nature a problem with carbohydrate metabolism. Do I feel I've been lied to? Yes and no. Those that made those recommendations in large part were basing them on what they mistakenly believed to be sound science (doctors, for example, who really have very little training in nutrition and have to rely on the recommendations of others). Others had more sinister motives, such as promoting their particular interests and those are the people that I am most annoyed with.
Instead of making me more mistrustful, the result that it had on me was to learn more myself so that I could make an informed decision on what was best for my health instead of relying on someone else to tell me what that is. I've disagreed with my doctor on more than a few occasions and while I can't say that he's thrilled with that, he does respect my knowledge and opinion at this point and is always willing to hear me out. We've become partners in caring for my health and that is as I believe it should be.

Last edited by Lisa N : Wed, Aug-20-03 at 16:51.
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  #78   ^
Old Wed, Aug-20-03, 19:04
gymeejet gymeejet is offline
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hi ws,
you be the man. yea, you gotta get results. i am a results person. i have already given in to these diets for diabetics, and such, if that indeed is gives them the healthiest results.

i put forth the diet that i think works best for the majority. in so doing, each individual should get tested, to see where he is. probably most of us have some nutrients that we don't absorb as well, or need more of, for whatever reason.

so i would say that just about everyone would need some supplementation. but i would be the first one to admit my diet was not working for someone, when and if it did not. obviously, if you have lost the ability to metabolize sugar, my diet would not work for you.
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  #79   ^
Old Wed, Aug-20-03, 19:24
gymeejet gymeejet is offline
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hi ashtaroth,
one needs to have enough sense and wisdom to understand the situation. if i go to an architect for blueprints for my house, it makes no difference to him what size timber i use. he has nothing to gain or lose. his only goal is to make sure the house is strong enough to stand the elements. so i would value his professional opinion. for the most part, i would say that most of what your profession does would not have strings attached.

in the computer field, it was not so good. consultants would very often reccommend IBM, so they would not get in trouble, or the machine that they personally knew the best, or in the worst situation the machine, because they got kickbacks from the manufacturer.

but the worse scenario of all, is information we get delivered to change the masses (i call it advertising), and there is a lot of money to be made in the nutritional field (we all gotta eat).

so again, evaluate the particular situation we find ourselves in, to see if said information benefits someone else.
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  #80   ^
Old Wed, Aug-20-03, 19:28
gymeejet gymeejet is offline
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tamarian,
that is where i disagree with you. you seem to think that studies by someone else is the only scientific method.

i already explained to you the "scientific method" - that of theory, testing, and then repostulating your previous theory so it can stand up to the new empirical evidence.

this i do faithfully. i am simply not willing to allow third-hand information to make decisions for me.
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  #81   ^
Old Wed, Aug-20-03, 19:42
gymeejet gymeejet is offline
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hi rhaazz,
because the body has limited glycogen stores, it will try to burn fat whenever possible. here is what occurs.

when exercise commences, sugar is used first. for whatever reason, it takes the body awhile to get its fat-burning system going.

as exercise continues, and the fat burners have warmed up, the body will attempt to burn fat, when possible, during aerobic activity.

if you turn up the burners, and go anaerobic, the body has to burn sugar to have a chance to keep up with you.

one can do more exercise one of 3 ways. (more often, longer, or harder). all 3 are good. but to push your body to the next level, you gotta go harder, which let me tell you, is by far and away the hardest one to do, of the 3. it separates the men from the boys, or the women from the girls.

while i have never had a meter put on me, i would suspect that my vigorous routine puts me in anaerobic mode at least 50% of the time, and i go for 80 minutes. not only do i need glycogen stores, i need sugar in my drink, while i am working out. because once the body gets low on something, it sure as heck doesn't care whether you want to do some exercising. it goes into protection/starvation mode. it allows me to get crazy, only if i do not let it get low on any nutrients.
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  #82   ^
Old Wed, Aug-20-03, 19:53
gymeejet gymeejet is offline
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hi lisa,
never did i say that you were missing any vitamins, etc. carbohydrates are essential for optimum health. our bodies prefer to burn glucose. if you want to rationalize that away, and think it wants to burn ketones, that is your choice.

if carbs are not essential, then why eat them at all ? our bodies prefer to burn glucose - any physiology book will tell you that. if you want to listen to a group of people, who have lots to gain, then that again is up to you.

with regards to jack, sure they used his name and he made a lot from the gyms. but look at his personal accomplishments, both before and after he became wealthy. and most importantly, look at what he was able to do, at his respective age, versus others at his age.
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  #83   ^
Old Wed, Aug-20-03, 20:08
gymeejet gymeejet is offline
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again, i am a results person. if i want to know how to do something, i go to the person who knows how to do it. jack lalaane was a pioneer in eating healthy. he wasn't just a muscle jock. he was THE PIONEER in terms of exercising, and had to take ridicule from the WHOLE MEDICAL COMMUNITY, who branded him a nut who was advising people to do something dangerous to their bodies. this is why i admire him. he stood his ground WHEN ALL THE STUDIES TOLD HIM HE WAS WRONG.

what many of you guys do not seem to understand is that my opinions did not just float into my brain one evening. i have used many books, some well-educated people in the field to toss around ideas. i then used the scientific method and tested stuff. it has been over a long, long time that these ideas have come to me, not by osmosis.

but at 48, i will tip my hat to any 21-year-old who can keep up with me. i haven't lost a bit of energy capacity yet. to me, that is one heckuva lot more persuasive to me than a million best sellers. again, show me the doctor who can keep up with me, and he will get my attention. not because of what he wrote, but what he can do from what he has learned - that is the proof of the pudding. OOPS - my testosterone is going up again. LOL.
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  #84   ^
Old Wed, Aug-20-03, 20:39
tamarian's Avatar
tamarian tamarian is offline
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Posts: 19,570
 
Plan: Atkins/PP/BFL
Stats: 400/223/200 Male 5 ft 11
BF:37%/17%/12%
Progress: 89%
Location: Ottawa, ON
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
this i do faithfully. i am simply not willing to allow third-hand information to make decisions for me.


LOL, but you have nothing but thrid hand information!

Your personal stories, are only first hand information to your anonymous self.

Scientific evidence that has been confirmed by multiple parties, with hundreds of subjects, repeated numerous times, with reproducable results and documented, is a lot more scientific than an unknown person preaching undocumented results based on their faith that theey are healthier than others. Let alone more credible first-hand personal accounts by members how know about scientific methods.

Your knowledge of scientific studies, based on what you said so far is based on a few brochures published by sponsored organizations, and a comment made by your doctor stating how healthy you are. You should hear how Dr. Ornish describe his health, and we've all seen him.

Wa'il
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  #85   ^
Old Wed, Aug-20-03, 20:46
tamarian's Avatar
tamarian tamarian is offline
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Posts: 19,570
 
Plan: Atkins/PP/BFL
Stats: 400/223/200 Male 5 ft 11
BF:37%/17%/12%
Progress: 89%
Location: Ottawa, ON
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gymeejet
again, show me the doctor who can keep up with me


I know of a couple of 70 year old low-carberss who can have you bite the dust, one happens to be a doctor. But that's probably not good enough for you, since none of them happen to be you, so they probably don't count.

Wa'il
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  #86   ^
Old Wed, Aug-20-03, 21:00
Rosebud's Avatar
Rosebud Rosebud is offline
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Quote:
our bodies prefer to burn glucose - any physiology book will tell you that.

Actually, given a choice, our bodies prefer to burn alcohol before burning either glucose or fat! So by your logic we should live on alcohol? Could be fun...

Rosebud
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  #87   ^
Old Wed, Aug-20-03, 22:00
gymeejet gymeejet is offline
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tamarian,
i realize my info is 3rd hand to you guys. if the situation were reversed, you already know that i would not believe myself. i do not expect any of you to believe me, either. but i relate to jack because i understand how he must have felt, when he was experiencing what exercise was doing for him, just as i am experiencing the gift of real youth - i wouldn't trade it for all the tea in china.

but on the same token, since you have never seen me, you have no scientific basis whatsoever to make a judgment about whether someone else is more energetic than myself.

but all i can say, is that i doubt it - LOL. my level of self-confidence is pretty high - LOL.
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  #88   ^
Old Wed, Aug-20-03, 22:05
gymeejet gymeejet is offline
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btw, i was wondering if your sign-off had any particular meaning, so i searched the internet, and found the following :

The meaning of Wa'il
Origin: Muslim
Meaning: Coming back (for shelter).

does this correspond with your sign-off ?
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  #89   ^
Old Thu, Aug-21-03, 04:22
Lisa N's Avatar
Lisa N Lisa N is offline
Posts: 12,028
 
Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
Stats: 260/-/145 Female 5' 3"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Michigan
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Quote:
if carbs are not essential, then why eat them at all ?


Because while carbs in and of themselves are not essential (and you can not eat them at all and remain healthy and fit....take the Inuits and Masai for example, who live primarily on protein and fat), the fiber, vitamins, minerals and phytochemicals that they contain can be helpful in promoting optimal health. You can get plenty of all those things without eating high glycemic carbs or a lot of them and still keep insulin response and circulating insulin levels low enough to prevent fat storage as well as a host of inflammatory responses associated with high levels of circulating insulin.


Quote:
carbohydrates are essential for optimum health.


And your proof of that would be? Wait...you don't have any other than subjective opinion and third hand information. As Rosebud pointed out, our bodies will burn alcohol in preference to any other energy source available, but you won't hear anyone stating that we should be getting all our energy from Jack Daniels. Our bodies have become a primarily glucose burning system because we have made them that way through out diets. Before the advent of agriculture, this was not the case and most humans were using primarily ketones for energy.

Quote:
never did i say that you were missing any vitamins, etc.


So your sole argument with a low carb lifestyle is that it is lacking in carbs which for some reason that you cannot prove you feel are necessary for optimal health? Gymeejet...you don't even know how many carbs those who are on maintainace are getting while you're maintaining that they are not getting enough of them!
LOL...you still haven't posted what you think an average days menu looks like on maintainance low carb.

Quote:
had to take ridicule from the WHOLE MEDICAL COMMUNITY, who branded him a nut who was advising people to do something dangerous to their bodies. this is why i admire him. he stood his ground WHEN ALL THE STUDIES TOLD HIM HE WAS WRONG.


Wow...sounds just like Dr. Atkins and to a lesser degree the rest of the doctors who have been promoting a low carb lifestyle as healthier and better for our bodies than the currently recommended diet. And yet, you're willing to trash all of their studies and experience with their patients based on....????
As for doctors who are healthy, Dr. Bernstein (Bernstein's Diabetes Solution), who is a type 1 diabetic in his 60's, is an active runner and uses weight resistance training, all on 30 grams of carb per day, which you keep maintaining is impossible to do without a lot of carbs.
Exercise? Let me ask you...how much exercise at the intensity level you are recommending is someone who is 100 pounds or more overweight (or even 50 pounds overweight) capable of? They need to lose weight first? Now how would you recommend that they do that?
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  #90   ^
Old Thu, Aug-21-03, 08:27
gymeejet gymeejet is offline
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hi lisa,
with respect to the typical maintenance diet, 10 people probably eat 10 different things. but you already told me that it is between 30 and 100 grams of carbs.

for obese people, i won't argue with you.

i tire of all this comparison to what the caveman used to eat. for some reason, people think that they used to be really healthy 2000 years ago or more. the truth is that one was a grandpa if he made it into his 40's. their lifespan was very short in comparison. they have found egyptian mummies riddled with arthritis, worms, etc. people in the olden days were far from optimum health.

your arguments are based upon helping those with problems, i.e. diabetes, obesity, etc. i have already told you that my focus is what people should be eating TO PREVENT THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE. i have no problem with special diets for special needs. it is when they attempt to tout that diet as what is healthiest from the GET-GO, where my disagreements begin.

also, there is a huge difference between essential for life, and essential for optimum health.
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