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  #106   ^
Old Sun, Dec-11-05, 15:30
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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I think you're underestimating the emotional complexity of cats. They can develop quite a lot of neurotic behaviors, just like humans can.
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  #107   ^
Old Sun, Dec-11-05, 15:55
DietSka DietSka is offline
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Plan: Atkins
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheWooo
The carb addict kitties I've known prefer carb food since it is "normal" to them, that's what they've eaten their whole lives.


It's not carb addiction. While we are omnivores and are naturally drawn to carbs (think fruit), cats are pure carnivores.

Cats often have a reputation as fussy eaters. This is because they have a scent organ in the roof of their mouths called the vomeronasal, or Jacobson's organ. When this organ becomes sensitised to a specific food, a cat will reject any food that doesn't fit the pattern it is expecting.
http://felinegreat.com/characteristics.html
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  #108   ^
Old Sun, Dec-11-05, 16:09
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potatofree potatofree is offline
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Plan: Back to Atkins
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheWooo
I think it's both heredity and environment, but I mean if your sister were feeding your cats ONLY meat I don't think they could become hugely obese like the cats I've known. I've found feeding a cat meat in an early age does two things. One, it prevents obesity by keeping metabolism healthy. Two, it changes their palate and makes them NOT like the fake foods.

Like, human children also get to be round beach balls like our kitties on carbs. Human children only get this way when fed carbs from birth. Human children's favorite foods become fake garbage like crackers shaped like goldfish, and they are excessively hungry fed this way. They find it very hard to change even when they consciously understand as adults what it does, because psychologically they've learned goldfish crakers are "normal food" and they prefer it. The carb addict kitties I've known prefer carb food since it is "normal" to them, that's what they've eaten their whole lives. Like I said I even knew a cat that would eat pasta. I don't know if in time the cats would remain stubborn eating the grain-less food, but I know carb addicted humans often do. Then again humans choices are more complex, humans feel past experiences more intensely, so it's probably likely a cat would eventually get over carb addiction.

Either way, off carbs, her cats simply would NOT eat that much. I've never known a pet owner with an obese cat that wasn't feeding them very grainy food.
When I overfed my cat when I was fat, he just didn't eat the extra and I threw it out. Grain food he didn't like that much so he wouldn't eat a lot, and meat food he simply would become naturally satisfied and eat the rest when he became hungry. He didn't have a special metabolism, he simply regulated his feeding.
If your sisters cat did this, she would force him to eat it all? How? I'd like to know! It's torture spending so much time spoon feeding my cat when he disappears on us for a few... I wish I knew how to make my cat eat a lot to keep on weight. The best he can do is get up to "healthy normal" and maintain that.

Cats unlike people cannot develop the complex emotional disorders that make us eat even when we are so full ours tomachs hurt, and don't much want food.


As far as I know, she didn't force them to finish, but kept fussing with every brand of food she couls find to please their "finicky" palates. I have no clue how much was grainy cat food (most likely) or meat.

I've never known of a human baby not fed carbs from birth, since human breast milk is quite carby itself and sweet-tasting. If we're supposed to subsist on meat and vegetable matter, I doubt the food designed to sustain an infant to the age of eating solid foods would be full of lactose. That's just my own theory, I have no proof of it.

Pets can be quite neurotic, and even get cravings based on physical needs that make NO sense. When one of our cats needs a worming, she tries to eat plastic. Another used to lick photographs. My daughter's cat, the plastic-eater has an insatiable appetite for earwax. Knowing the boy is a rich source of grubby gunk, she'll practically maul him if she sees him stick a finger in his ear. <bleh> I don't know if we seek out freakish pets, or if we make them that way. Heredity vs environment again!
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  #109   ^
Old Sun, Dec-11-05, 16:38
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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I had a cat that would lick the q-tips I threw in the trash... was it the ear wax he was after? ew! I know he also ate some of my ear plugs because I saw he had passed them in his kitty litter.

He also loved to lick my ears, but he did that to his buddy cat too. Definitely some sort of ear fetish going on. Then I have a siamese that LOVES to lick plastic shopping bags. I have no idea why. I'd call these idiosyncracies rather than neurosies.
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  #110   ^
Old Sun, Dec-11-05, 18:03
Lisa N's Avatar
Lisa N Lisa N is offline
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Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
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Quote:
Though an animal cannot be intuitive, an animal can follow biological orders from its body (instinct). An animal is by default an intuitive eater, he is capable of no more or less. Intuition is to be intimately linked with whatever the focus of your intuition (empathy), and in the case of an animal, they are almost entirely their body with little higher thought processes, so no other outcome is possible. While it might not be a proper intuition (in that there really is no consciousness and therefore awareness for intuition to take place) but the net effect is the same: harmony and assimilation between body and mind.


The net effect may be the same, but the amount of rational thought that goes into each one is different. Animals act on instinct and respond to stimuli; they get hungry, they go looking for something to eat and eat the first thing available that is edible to them; they don't think about what to eat or how much of it to eat. Let's look at the definition of Instinct:

"A largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason."

Now, contrast that with the definition of Intuition:

"Immediate apprehension or cognition, the power or faculty of attaining to direct knowledge or cognition without evident rational thought and inference, quick and ready insight". The operational word here is evident; that's not to say it doesn't happen, it's just not obvious.

It's not about not thinking at all and eating the first thing that we find that is edible as an animal would do; I can't see a wolf passing up an easy elk calf kill because it 'feels' more like moose that day. Going back to the original article, the definition of intuitive eating is this:

Quote:
“The basic premise of intuitive eating is, rather than manipulate what we eat in terms of prescribed diets -- how many calories a food has, how many grams of fat, specific food combinations or anything like that -- we should take internal cues, try to recognize what our body wants and then regulate how much we eat based on hunger and satiety,”


Instead of worrying about how many calories, fat grams, protein grams, carb grams, sugar grams or combination of all of them, the author chooses to try to figure out what his body wants and provide it and then only enough of it to satiate, not stuff. This works only when the 'signals' are not messed up and interfered with by disease. It also involves a lot more thought and thinking about food than one might think (hmmm...I'm hungry, but what am I hungry for?). Instead of thinking about defined, measurable things, the intuitive eater now needs to 'get in touch' with their body's signals which are a lot harder to measure and define.
Personally, I think I find it a lot easier to only count carbs and let the rest of my macros work themselves out, eat when hungry, stop when I'm not hungry any more. It's also a lot easier to plan meals and do my shopping when I'm not having to think about what my body wants at every meal.
To tell you the truth, if I was this guy's wife I have a feeling I'd find myself saying all too often, "I made chicken for dinner. If you feel like salmon instead, feel free to go buy it and cook it your own *&$% self!"

Last edited by Lisa N : Sun, Dec-11-05 at 18:11.
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  #111   ^
Old Sun, Dec-11-05, 21:48
LC FP LC FP is offline
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The wife says:

Quote:
"I made chicken for dinner. If you feel like salmon instead, feel free to go buy it and cook it your own *&$% self!"


This is where the definition of intuition comes in--

Quote:
"Immediate apprehension or cognition, the power or faculty of attaining to direct knowledge or cognition without evident rational thought and inference, quick and ready insight".


Ths husband says, evidently without conscious thought, "I'd love chicken, honey."
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  #112   ^
Old Sun, Dec-11-05, 22:29
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locarbbarb locarbbarb is offline
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  #113   ^
Old Sun, Dec-11-05, 22:48
LC FP LC FP is offline
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Wooo
Quote:
A simple experiment would be to give a bear access to berries when all other aspects of environment tell the bear seasons aren't changing: would the bear gorge and gain fat? I don't think so, I suspect the berries alone would not do much to change its feeding patterns in absence of other environmental cues that signal season change.


This story is no experiment, but... I used to live in a town in central PA that had a high meadow up in the mountains about 1000 feet above the town. Every July people went up there in groups to pick wild blueberries. The meadow was covered with high bush blueberries, and there were so many berries that the meadow itself looked blue.

The reason people went there in groups was evident in the name of the place, Bear Meadow. These were black bears, not grizzlies, but often sows had cubs with them, and were plenty dangerous.

I doubt photoperiod had much to do with them being there, it was usually July when the berries were ripe.

There isn't much fat in blueberries, but they sure are sweet. The bears risked interactions with humans to eat there in broad daylight.

I think the bears were just reacting to opportunities in their environment. They abandon some of their reticence because they are drawn to berries, just like our ancestors probably were. Hunter-gatherers are good at taking advantage of gathering opportunities and know where to be and when to be there.

I don't think eating food when it is available is necessarily intuitive, it's just smart.

But if addictive and potentially dangerous "food" is available in unlimited supply all year round, we have to invent ways to stay thin, and having good intuition may be one of them.
Quote:
I think it's both heredity and environment


I agree, it's both. I think we're hard-wired to seek and consume carbs, and in a pre-agricultural environment they aren't available in quantity long enough to make us sick.
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  #114   ^
Old Mon, Dec-12-05, 00:19
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nawchem nawchem is offline
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My home in Colorado is surrounded by pine trees and squirrels. Great now I have someone to feed the bread to from the fastfood cheeseburgers and I put out nuts every few days. When they find the nuts the squirrels sit down and eat them until there gone but the bread might sit there several days. Maybe they are somewhat intuitive eaters. I haven't seen any fat squirrels.
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  #115   ^
Old Mon, Dec-12-05, 09:47
jmom jmom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by locarbbarb

Of course some animals put on weight before the winter, or whatever biological event (pregnancy, maybe). I just mentioned it because I felt it seemed like a human condition, where, if you took a random group of humans (especially now-a-days ) you'd find at least one overweight one. And according to statistics, when it comes to adults, isn't it something like 50% ?!

So that's all I meant about the animals in nature, although it was an interesting point that some do put on weight seasonally (and maybe we have that inclination, still, too.) And it was interesting about the animal experiments, as well.

I still don't think animals put on weight because of carb-sensitivity in nature (well, maybe they do - I don't know any more after all this!) and I really don't believe they overeat because of childhood issues!

I still believe they eat intuitively, and has been pointed out before, they only drift from that when there is human intervention (experiments, overfeeding).



It's not just animals "in nature." Growing up on a ranch, I can say that different animals gain or lose weight in rates that vary about as much as you and I. All our horses had the same diet--grass in the summer, hay in the winter-of course they chose the quantity as it is difficult to tell a horse out in the pasture when to quit munching. We had one mare that was consistently very fat. The kids all loved her gentle and slow nature. I don't know what "childhood issues" she may have had nor if she had personal concerns about her figure. The other horses also ranged considerably in weight, but none as much as her.

Feeding cattle with the express intention of fattening them up (more fat = more cash), also has wide variations in success on exactly the same food and constant access.

We've had dogs that you could let them have constant access to food and they would self-regulate. We've also had dogs that would blow up like balloons if you didn't limit their access.

We are animals.
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  #116   ^
Old Mon, Dec-12-05, 10:52
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locarbbarb locarbbarb is offline
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Quote:
We had one mare that was consistently very fat. The kids all loved her gentle and slow nature. I don't know what "childhood issues" she may have had nor if she had personal concerns about her figure




Well, there it is then. Thanks for the info. As I've never seen a fat horse (just typing that makes me want to laugh!) I would never have known. I guess they use the model horses on TV!
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  #117   ^
Old Mon, Dec-12-05, 11:10
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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There are genetic and hormonal differences in animals too. I know cats tend to get hyperthyroid and dogs tend to get hypothyroid diseases. Maybe horses as well. Plus whatever else underlies the differences in metabolism from one individual to another probably also takes place in animals.
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  #118   ^
Old Mon, Dec-12-05, 13:12
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bladegem bladegem is offline
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I have a fat cat and two skinny cats from the same litter. Both parents are thin...
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  #119   ^
Old Mon, Dec-12-05, 13:33
jmom jmom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by locarbbarb


Well, there it is then. Thanks for the info. As I've never seen a fat horse (just typing that makes me want to laugh!) I would never have known. I guess they use the model horses on TV!


All the little children would learn to ride on her. My dad made us all learn to ride bareback first. She was wide enough that little 2 and 3 year-old kid legs would practically stick straight out when they were on her back. She would trot along, they would fall off, then she would stop and stand there until someone came to rescue them and plunk them back on her. She would do about anything for a kid, but put an adult on her and she would hardly move. Not much of a cow pony, but the greatest kid horse you could find.

I believe there are about as many variations in animals in both physiology and psychology as there are in humans. We even had a completely gay horse-she would have added quite a discussion to the heredity vs. environment arguments!

Anyway, as far as intuitive eating, I intuitively know that method of eating would keep me as fat as the gentle old mare I grew up with!
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