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  #1   ^
Old Wed, Dec-16-09, 17:23
20lbstogo's Avatar
20lbstogo 20lbstogo is offline
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Posts: 92
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 165/152.5/135 Female 5 foot 5 inches
BF:28%
Progress: 42%
Default die off symptoms???common????

Hi I am on the candida cleanse diet and am in my 6th day. My symptoms have been bearable however I have noticed that my kidneys have started to hurt. Is this normal??

I am supposed to start the antifungals on Friday and want to ensure that I am not hurting myself with too intense of a die off in regards to my overall health.
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  #2   ^
Old Thu, Dec-17-09, 12:15
Annajen's Avatar
Annajen Annajen is offline
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Plan: candida diet
Stats: 116/113/110 Female 5'1"
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HI 20lbstogo

Are you sure it's your kidneys? It may be, since candida can affect the urinary tract and can often cause burning sensations on urination too.

Are you also sure you're drinking enough water on this diet? You should increase your water from what it normally was, and include some herbal teas such as peppermint and fennel (not the very sweet floral ones though, if you can help it, because of the sugars) to try to help your kidneys get rid of the waste.

Who is in charge of your programme? I mean, who is putting you on the antifungals Friday? Have you mentioned the symptoms to them?
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  #3   ^
Old Thu, Dec-17-09, 14:10
peteranac peteranac is offline
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Posts: 100
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 175/154.5/135 Female 5'5"
BF:38.8%
Progress: 51%
Default

I am not sure it is my kidneys but the ache is in that general area. I am drinking lots of water to the point that I go to the washroom quite frequently. I am wondering if my adrenals are just stressed out too much and if the antifungals will help in the long run. We'll see.

I have put in a call to my matruopath but she is so busy and always is with people. I have sent her an email as well. Just have to wait it out I guess.
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  #4   ^
Old Thu, Dec-17-09, 14:21
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capmikee capmikee is offline
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Posts: 5,160
 
Plan: Weston A. Price, GFCF
Stats: 165/133/132 Male 5' 5"
BF:?/12.7%/?
Progress: 97%
Location: Philadelphia
Default

Maybe you're drinking too much?
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  #5   ^
Old Thu, Dec-17-09, 15:27
justin1984 justin1984 is offline
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Posts: 30
 
Plan: candida diet
Stats: 185/173/180 Male 72 inches
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Hey...I started the diet last week and my lower back hurts too...I'm not sure if it's my kidneys or my colon though. It seems like it may be a little lower than my kidneys but i'm not too sure. This is interesting though.
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  #6   ^
Old Thu, Dec-17-09, 15:54
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capmikee capmikee is offline
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Posts: 5,160
 
Plan: Weston A. Price, GFCF
Stats: 165/133/132 Male 5' 5"
BF:?/12.7%/?
Progress: 97%
Location: Philadelphia
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What is your diet specifically? There are so many. Perhaps you could post a day or two of what you're eating.
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  #7   ^
Old Thu, Dec-17-09, 16:36
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20lbstogo 20lbstogo is offline
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Posts: 92
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 165/152.5/135 Female 5 foot 5 inches
BF:28%
Progress: 42%
Default

Hey there,

What I am eating is as follows (and tends to be this everyday)
Breakfast
rice cake with almond butter
plain probiotic yogurt
1/2 pear for morning snack

Lunch salad with baked chicken, sunflower seeds olive oil and lemon

I drink water throughout the day. Typically 45 - 50ounces

Dinner is some meat and another salad with olive oil and lemon juice.

Not sure if it my kidneys but it is around my waist area. I am on day 6 of the diet alone and will start with the antifungals (Candida Clear) weening them in 1 1 a day for 3 days and them 2 1 a day for three days and then 3 1 a day for the remainder of 2 months.

Any ideas? Also sorry for the graphic detail but no matter how much I drink my urine is always yellow.
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  #8   ^
Old Fri, Dec-18-09, 10:36
capmikee's Avatar
capmikee capmikee is offline
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Posts: 5,160
 
Plan: Weston A. Price, GFCF
Stats: 165/133/132 Male 5' 5"
BF:?/12.7%/?
Progress: 97%
Location: Philadelphia
Default

You might not be eating enough fat. Saturated fat is a potent antifungal. Lots of people use coconut oil, though I prefer lard myself. And all the meat I eat is fatty - chicken with skin, untrimmed steak, 20-30% fat hamburger, etc.

For me, grains and nuts are not friends. I know some candida diets allow rice, but rice cakes are an industrial product that has been made into a health food by the miracle of marketing. Nuts and seeds tend to have mold on them which is no good for candida. I had particular problems with almonds. Seeds can be high in oxalates, too, which can give you kidney stones.

Dairy can also aggravate candida problems - I used yogurt as a probiotic for years before I finally admitted that it was making things worse, not better. Some candida diets allow special long-fermented yogurt, but I think it's better to get your probiotics from kimchi.

Your water intake sounds like it's probably on target, though.
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  #9   ^
Old Fri, Dec-18-09, 14:28
KT12 KT12 is offline
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Posts: 54
 
Plan: N/A
Stats: 127/127/127 Male 165cm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capmikee
You might not be eating enough fat. Saturated fat is a potent antifungal. Lots of people use coconut oil, though I prefer lard myself. And all the meat I eat is fatty - chicken with skin, untrimmed steak, 20-30% fat hamburger, etc.

Dairy can also aggravate candida problems - I used yogurt as a probiotic for years before I finally admitted that it was making things worse, not better. Some candida diets allow special long-fermented yogurt, but I think it's better to get your probiotics from kimchi.


Hey Capmikee,

It's a bit more complicated than that. The saturated fat in coconut oil is not the same saturated fat you find in animal fat. The saturated fat in coconut oil is made up of 3 medium chain fatty acids which are caprylic acid, capric acid, and lauric acid. These 3 fatty acids have an antimicrobial, antifungal, and antiviral effect in the body. The saturated fat found in animal fat and most vegetable oil consist of long chain fatty acids, which do not have these same effects. Also medium chain fatty acids are burned faster and easier by the body, and are not stored as fat as easily as long chain fatty acids.

I've read that butter and palm oil have lauric acid in them as well, which is one of the good fatty acids in the fight against Candida. In regards to lard, i've read that the content of the saturated fat depends on the diet that the pigs are fed. I don't believe many pigs in the West are brought up on coconut, palm oil, or butter.

Besides that, livestock are pumped so full of growth hormones and antibiotics before they arrive on your dinner plate. Organic free range meats would be the better option, but I know they are expensive as heck to buy! I don't even buy them myself.

Also, what kind of yogurt did you used to eat?
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  #10   ^
Old Fri, Dec-18-09, 15:52
Tom873 Tom873 is offline
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Plan: N/A
Stats: 140/140/140 Male 5'6"
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Is it common during die off to be feeling fine and, then all of a sudden, just feel really tired out from nowhere? Like all the energy in your body was sucked away.
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  #11   ^
Old Fri, Dec-18-09, 15:53
capmikee's Avatar
capmikee capmikee is offline
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Posts: 5,160
 
Plan: Weston A. Price, GFCF
Stats: 165/133/132 Male 5' 5"
BF:?/12.7%/?
Progress: 97%
Location: Philadelphia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KT12
It's a bit more complicated than that. The saturated fat in coconut oil is not the same saturated fat you find in animal fat. The saturated fat in coconut oil is made up of 3 medium chain fatty acids which are caprylic acid, capric acid, and lauric acid. These 3 fatty acids have an antimicrobial, antifungal, and antiviral effect in the body. The saturated fat found in animal fat and most vegetable oil consist of long chain fatty acids, which do not have these same effects.


Those are the fatty acids that have been well studied. I tend to think there's a lot more in food that hasn't been studied, and I can say with reasonable confidence that people haven't been looking for a lot of benefits in animal fat.
There are animal fats that have antimicrobial properties though. Stearic acid, for example, which is found in beef. By the way, the words "capric" and "caprylic" are derived from the Latin caper, meaning "goat." They are named after goats because that's what they smell like. I'm going to take a wild guess and say that goat fat has a reasonable amount. I'm emphasizing animal fats because I haven't had any success with coconut oil - all it does is irritate my throat. Also, because of the dairy complications, I don't recommend butter or even ghee, though that may work for some people.

Quote:
In regards to lard, i've read that the content of the saturated fat depends on the diet that the pigs are fed. I don't believe many pigs in the West are brought up on coconut, palm oil, or butter.

Yes, that's true. But in general, I think most foods are improved over their original state when they become incorporated into the flesh of an animal.

Quote:
Besides that, livestock are pumped so full of growth hormones and antibiotics before they arrive on your dinner plate. Organic free range meats would be the better option, but I know they are expensive as heck to buy! I don't even buy them myself.

I'm sorry, I thought that went without saying. I buy them whenever I can, but as I mentioned, I think even the lowest quality animal products are better than plant-based frankenfoods available to us. I'd rather eat beef that was given hormones than eat the phytoestrogens in soybeans, for example.

Quote:
Also, what kind of yogurt did you used to eat?

Stonyfield plain full-fat yogurt. Towards the end, I started making my own yogurt with raw grass-fed milk. More recently I tried making coconut milk kefir, but with kefir grains from dairy kefir. It made me "drunk" for two days.
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  #12   ^
Old Sun, Dec-20-09, 08:40
KT12 KT12 is offline
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Plan: N/A
Stats: 127/127/127 Male 165cm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capmikee
Those are the fatty acids that have been well studied. I tend to think there's a lot more in food that hasn't been studied, and I can say with reasonable confidence that people haven't been looking for a lot of benefits in animal fat.
There are animal fats that have antimicrobial properties though. Stearic acid, for example, which is found in beef. By the way, the words "capric" and "caprylic" are derived from the Latin caper, meaning "goat." They are named after goats because that's what they smell like. I'm going to take a wild guess and say that goat fat has a reasonable amount. I'm emphasizing animal fats because I haven't had any success with coconut oil - all it does is irritate my throat. Also, because of the dairy complications, I don't recommend butter or even ghee, though that may work for some people.


Could you point me in the direction of that research? I did a google search on "Stearic acid Antifungal" and couldn't find anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by capmikee
Yes, that's true. But in general, I think most foods are improved over their original state when they become incorporated into the flesh of an animal.


I wish this were true. Let's look at fish as an example. Fish such as tuna, mackerel, grouper, sea bass, etc. all have high levels of mercury, lead, or other PCB's. They get these high levels because the are predatory fish, eating smaller fish who have already been contaminated with these dangerous toxins. The longer these predatory fish live, the higher their levels of toxins. This has been proven time and time again with scientific testing and research. Clearly the same thing can happen to land animals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by capmikee
I'm sorry, I thought that went without saying. I buy them whenever I can, but as I mentioned, I think even the lowest quality animal products are better than plant-based frankenfoods available to us. I'd rather eat beef that was given hormones than eat the phytoestrogens in soybeans, for example.


Ah, o.k. I can see you've been doing some reading over on the Weston A Price Foundation website. There have been both positive and negative research in regards to soybeans and soymilk. It's clear that further research is needed in regards to soybeans. I hope scientists will continue their work in this regard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by capmikee
Stonyfield plain full-fat yogurt. Towards the end, I started making my own yogurt with raw grass-fed milk. More recently I tried making coconut milk kefir, but with kefir grains from dairy kefir. It made me "drunk" for two days.


I would love to make my own yogurt, but i'm too lazy...LOL. I just buy the plain natural one with live active cultures from the store. Maybe I should make it myself though and save some money!
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  #13   ^
Old Mon, Dec-21-09, 09:35
capmikee's Avatar
capmikee capmikee is offline
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Posts: 5,160
 
Plan: Weston A. Price, GFCF
Stats: 165/133/132 Male 5' 5"
BF:?/12.7%/?
Progress: 97%
Location: Philadelphia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KT12
Could you point me in the direction of that research? I did a google search on "Stearic acid Antifungal" and couldn't find anything.

I was using "stearic acid antimicrobial" as my search term. But I was only skimming because I thought I'd already heard about it. Perhaps I was wrong. Although it's the main ingredient of soap, the studies I turned up seemed to say that it reduces the effectiveness of antibacterial soap.

Quote:
I wish this were true. Let's look at fish as an example.

I'm not sure fish is a good example. The oceans are a dumping ground for the world's toxic waste, and my understanding is that the marine food chain is much longer than the terrestrial one.

But the heavy metal fears we have with eating all predators have to be weighed against a couple things: First of all, good things also accumulate, such as omega-3s. That's why fish has more of that than terrestrial animals too. Also, having a healthy Vitamin D status, which can be supported indirectly by eating animal foods, helps your body balance its minerals. It may be speculative, but I think that includes absorbing more minerals and less heavy metals.

Another reason the example of heavy metals in fish may not be representative of eating animals in general is this: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think pesticides don't accumulate in animals in the degree that heavy metals do. Even if that's not a significant factor, the loss of nutrients involved in eating carbs makes me think that eating conventional grains and fruits is much riskier than eating any sort of meat.

Quote:
Ah, o.k. I can see you've been doing some reading over on the Weston A Price Foundation website. There have been both positive and negative research in regards to soybeans and soymilk. It's clear that further research is needed in regards to soybeans. I hope scientists will continue their work in this regard.

That may be true from a purely scientific point of view, but from a historic point of view I think the answer is clear. Soybeans have been eaten by humans for less than half the time that grains have, and I consider grains to be a novel addition to our diet that has only led to poor health. For centuries, the primary way to consume soy was as soy sauce, a fermented food that eliminates many of the harmful factors through heavy processing. Tofu came much later, and that also involves processing to counter soy's mineral-binding properties. Soy milk was introduced in the last century by an American - it's a byproduct of making tofu and was never regularly consumed before. And I hope no one is under the impression that "soy protein isolate" is anything but an industrial frankenfood.

Lately I've been seeing some serious shortcomings to the science of food. By isolating individual food chemicals and taking a reductionist approach to nutrition, it is possible to come up with any answer you want: simply ignore the antinutrients and the nutrients make your food look healthy... or vice versa. Even the most unbiased researcher can't possibly get enough solid data to really see the big picture. That's why I prefer the philosophy of Sir Albert Howard: We know how Nature has done it for millenia, even if we don't know why. I prefer to stick with that.

The fish issue is disturbing because there have been so many changes to the environment in the last century. I don't eat that much fish, and when I do eat fish, I go for the most "nutrient-dense" stuff - oysters, anchovies, caviar, salmon. Wild if at all possible.
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  #14   ^
Old Mon, Dec-21-09, 10:49
KT12 KT12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capmikee
I was using "stearic acid antimicrobial" as my search term. But I was only skimming because I thought I'd already heard about it. Perhaps I was wrong. Although it's the main ingredient of soap, the studies I turned up seemed to say that it reduces the effectiveness of antibacterial soap.


I looked through a couple of the sites but didn't really see any detail in regards to what kind of organisms stearic acid inhibited. Antimicrobial has such a broad meaning. I'd like to see some research on it's effect on Candida Albicans directly. LOL, if there are any researchers reading this post, then you have a new project!


Quote:
Originally Posted by capmikee
I'm not sure fish is a good example. The oceans are a dumping ground for the world's toxic waste, and my understanding is that the marine food chain is much longer than the terrestrial one.


Yes, but not only are we destroying the oceans, but we are destroying or land as well. Runoff from chemical plants, factories, etc are polluting our ground water and soil. Terrestrial animals are still susceptible to these toxins. But yeah, you're right that the marine food chain is longer than the terrestrial one, which provides more opportunity for the bigger fish to accumulate these heavy metals. I just wanted to point out that I didn't think that most foods are improved over their original state when they become incorporated into the flesh of an animal. It depends on what the animal is eating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by capmikee
Another reason the example of heavy metals in fish may not be representative of eating animals in general is this: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think pesticides don't accumulate in animals in the degree that heavy metals do. Even if that's not a significant factor, the loss of nutrients involved in eating carbs makes me think that eating conventional grains and fruits is much riskier than eating any sort of meat.


LOL, so I can choose fruits and grains that have been genetically modified and sprayed down with pesticides, or I can choose eating animals that have been feed the same grains that have been genetically modified and sprayed with pesticides, as well as being pumped full of antibiotics, growth hormones, and god knows what else. Which one is the lessor of the two evils.....


Quote:
Originally Posted by capmikee
That may be true from a purely scientific point of view, but from a historic point of view I think the answer is clear. Soybeans have been eaten by humans for less than half the time that grains have, and I consider grains to be a novel addition to our diet that has only led to poor health. For centuries, the primary way to consume soy was as soy sauce, a fermented food that eliminates many of the harmful factors through heavy processing. Tofu came much later, and that also involves processing to counter soy's mineral-binding properties. Soy milk was introduced in the last century by an American - it's a byproduct of making tofu and was never regularly consumed before. And I hope no one is under the impression that "soy protein isolate" is anything but an industrial frankenfood.

Lately I've been seeing some serious shortcomings to the science of food. By isolating individual food chemicals and taking a reductionist approach to nutrition, it is possible to come up with any answer you want: simply ignore the antinutrients and the nutrients make your food look healthy... or vice versa. Even the most unbiased researcher can't possibly get enough solid data to really see the big picture. That's why I prefer the philosophy of Sir Albert Howard: We know how Nature has done it for millenia, even if we don't know why. I prefer to stick with that.


In regards to soy, I tend to focus on the research only. Problem is the research has been mixed, so it's difficult to say if the good outweigh they bad or vice versa. Personally I don't drink soy, but that's because I don't like it. I prefer goat's milk. It's easier to digest than cow's milk.

I totally agree that there are shortcomings in regards to food science. It's hard to tell what's good for you nowadays! A person could drive themselves crazy trying to keep up with all the information that's available.
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