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  #1306   ^
Old Sat, Jan-25-20, 11:12
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,678
 
Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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When Dr. Fung first started his protocol of IF to resolve T2D with patients, he didn't emphasize conversion to low carb; although, he indicates a preference for low carb. His objective was to get people used to IF to get the therapeutic benefits of that protocol, first. Over time, as low carb/ keto has become more more popular and wide spread, he has guided patients to find a healthy, whole food WOE that works for them while continuing with IF. I believe that's where he stands today. Many of his patients were and are still able to do IF/ TRE consistently and get benefits without radically changing their WOE.
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  #1307   ^
Old Sat, Jan-25-20, 11:25
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,391
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/123/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 139%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benay
In reading Dr Fung's diet plan, he allows fruits - for example.

So my question is - does IF depend upon a low carb program to be effective - or can you eat anything at all as Dr Fung seems to suggest.

Just confusedabout Dr Fung's message


This might help:

Quote:
Replace, donít Add Fruit Ė Hormonal Obesity XXI

So, should we eat more fruits and vegetables? Yes, definitely. But only if they are replacing other unhealthier foods in your diet. Replace. Not add. Losing weight boils down to reducing insulin levels. Eating more of something, even as healthy as fruits and vegetables simply does not achieve that goal.

https://thefastingmethod.com/replace-dont-add-fruit/


As I told Mr WereBear just today at the grocery store: "Don't even look at the goodies. Get nuts, get fruit. At least you get nutrition out of those." He's still adjusting to the ketogenic diet. So we're looking at "treats" differently. I'm buying better coffee, turning my low-sugar fermented drinks like Kevita into a portion of "wine" to sip of an evening, and berries with heavy cream as a dessert. A recent discovery is chocolate from Finland: now that's a square of happy.

Here's the thing:

It's not about the plan. There are so many plans, and then there's the plan for you. The one that will work with your unique genetics, challenges, issues, and goals.

Often, we have to figure that out for ourselves.

I've seen many people with the misconception about "I'm working the plan! The plan allows X and Y and Z!"

If you are working the plan, and the plan's not working: then it's not the plan for you. And they might not have a plan for you: I've tried EIGHT formal plans. To reach the one I'm on now, a custom plan, that works for me. Here's what I've taken from each of them:

Atkins: Induction level carbs
Epi-Paleo: seafood and seasonal
Wheatbelly: go gluten free
Primal: allows dairy
Gutsense.org: fiber is not for everyone
Wahls Protocol: find the foods that don't work for you
Dr. Fung: Intermittent fasting
Carnivore: focus on MEAT

This is the WereBear plan, and I could write a book on how it works for me, and there probably are people who it works for, and people who think I AM INSANE to eat this way

I'm afraid that's how it works. If what you are doing isn't working, use different plans to get ideas, and be willing to try something different.

Everyone knows what doesn't work!
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  #1308   ^
Old Sat, Jan-25-20, 11:45
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,892
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/125/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 109%
Location: Vermont
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
Here's the thing:

It's not about the plan. There are so many plans, and then there's the plan for you. The one that will work with your unique genetics, challenges, issues, and goals.

Often, we have to figure that out for ourselves.

I've seen many people with the misconception about "I'm working the plan! The plan allows X and Y and Z!"

If you are working the plan, and the plan's not working: then it's not the plan for you.


Absolutely! I've heard people say I can't eat paleo because paleo includes too much fruit. Silly. You can eat paleo and just omit the fruit. Whatever plan you use you have to make it work for your particular set of circumstances and if it doesn't you have to change what you are doing. This can make it all more complicated but it is what it is and once you've got it figured out, at least for the moment, the results are worth the effort.
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  #1309   ^
Old Sun, Jan-26-20, 05:18
Benay's Avatar
Benay Benay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 793
 
Plan: Protein Power/Atkins
Stats: 250/181/165 Female 5 feet 6 inches
BF:
Progress: 81%
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
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Question:

As a "turtle" when do you decide the plan you are on "is not working"?
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  #1310   ^
Old Sun, Jan-26-20, 06:51
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,391
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/123/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 139%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benay
Question:

As a "turtle" when do you decide the plan you are on "is not working"?


That's up to you. It's not always about weight loss, either. Are you feeling better, sleeping better, seeing improvement in aches and pains?

What do you want? is the first question to ask, and the second one is, Am I getting it?
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  #1311   ^
Old Sun, Jan-26-20, 09:03
Kristine's Avatar
Kristine Kristine is offline
Forum Moderator
Posts: 22,816
 
Plan: Primal/P:E
Stats: 171/155/155 Female 5'7"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Southern Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benay
Question:

As a "turtle" when do you decide the plan you are on "is not working"?
As Wearbear pointed out, one really has to have a hierarchy of what defines "working". Here's mine:
  • Stamina/energy to do my job.
  • Mental health - depression/anxiety being kept at bay
  • Pain control - arthritis, plantar fasciitis, tendonitis under control
  • Decent sleep
  • Gut health - no more diarrhea or discomfort
  • Good lipid profile, fasting glucose, A1C, and other lab results that keep the doctor off my back.
  • (a whole bunch of other things above this next one)
  • Being as skinny as I was at 27. That's just not going to happen again and it's not a priority for me anymore. The things I'd have to do to accomplish that, would negate the more important things.
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  #1312   ^
Old Sun, Jan-26-20, 12:29
bluesinger's Avatar
bluesinger bluesinger is offline
Posts: 4,821
 
Plan: TheraKeto~Atkins72
Stats: 170/133/140 Female 62 inches
BF:24%
Progress: 123%
Location: Nevada Desert, USA
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I am always running new experiments on myself (n=1s.)
As an example, my recent giving up dairy gave me a weight loss for the first time in I think 2 years. It also cleared up my lower GI distress.

I also recently did blood glucose tests of myself throughout the day to make certain what was happening when I drank non-caloric beverages, as well as how much my BG rose after eating a LC meal. These readings made me more secure in my WOE.

TRE also has helped me maintain.

And of all the graphics I've swiped from Dr. Fung, this is the one I live by:
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  #1313   ^
Old Mon, Jan-27-20, 04:53
Benay's Avatar
Benay Benay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 793
 
Plan: Protein Power/Atkins
Stats: 250/181/165 Female 5 feet 6 inches
BF:
Progress: 81%
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
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I am still confused

When does a stall/plateau morph into "the plan isn't working for you"
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  #1314   ^
Old Mon, Jan-27-20, 06:13
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,892
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/125/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 109%
Location: Vermont
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benay
I am still confused

When does a stall/plateau morph into "the plan isn't working for you"


Maybe this article will help.

https://www.dietdoctor.com/how-to-l...t/break-a-stall

The truth is that there are no hard and fast rules to follow and we all just have to find our own way based on a sound plan but tweaked to fit our individual needs, goals and results. I think a lot of us get waylaid by impatience. Sometimes just sticking to an established plan like Dr Westman's for an extended length of time without deviation will do it.
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  #1315   ^
Old Mon, Jan-27-20, 07:38
Benay's Avatar
Benay Benay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 793
 
Plan: Protein Power/Atkins
Stats: 250/181/165 Female 5 feet 6 inches
BF:
Progress: 81%
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
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Cotonpal - thanks for the link - very informative

Unfortunately, I am still on the confused side. I clicked on the waist height ratio (a comment had to provide how to do the calculation as the article did not) did the calculation and found my ratio as 0.57. Since I have an hour glass figure (calculated from another site) that is not surprising (hourglass=waist 10 inches smaller than both/either hips or bust).

Yesterday I was reading the thread on the Eades book 6-week-cure-for-the-middle-aged-middle (54 pages) and noticed how many were plateaued for months and months. But they stuck to low carb anyway.

My attempt at IF was/is 14 hour fast plus low carb.

So, I am still wondering - when do you decide your plan is not working - rather than being an extended plateau/stall.

I do not plan to give up low carb in the near future
Have no intention of being a vegan

I still have IBS symptoms
Still have high blood pressure
No change in energy level
Clothes fit the same
etc.
These seem to be the criteria suggesting I need to change my plan
But I want to stay low carb and fast 14 hrs/day

I remain puzzled
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  #1316   ^
Old Mon, Jan-27-20, 08:53
Benay's Avatar
Benay Benay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 793
 
Plan: Protein Power/Atkins
Stats: 250/181/165 Female 5 feet 6 inches
BF:
Progress: 81%
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
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In looking over the waist/hip and waist/height ratios - I wonder if they aren't a product of our genes.

My waist/hip - waist/height ratio is due mainly from the genes I inherited. IMO I put on weight all over my body, so my ratios stay the same.

Others may be predisposed to putting on weight at the belly.

Does that mean we are genetically pre-disposed to insulin resistance (as my ratios say I am not insulin resistant)
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  #1317   ^
Old Mon, Jan-27-20, 09:13
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 14,680
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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I don't know if there is a problem with bellyfat-->insulin resistance as such--at least not the subcutaneous belly fat, any more than with surface fat anywhere else in the body. People who distribute their fat evenly all over the body might be described as having more places to store the fat--maybe a greater capacity, so that that 'fat threshold' that Dr's Fung, Naiman and others describe can take longer to reach than it might have otherwise. More of a buffer against ectopic fat developing in the vital organs. A buffer, maybe a higher threshold before we get in trouble--but not a total protection.
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  #1318   ^
Old Mon, Jan-27-20, 09:22
bluesinger's Avatar
bluesinger bluesinger is offline
Posts: 4,821
 
Plan: TheraKeto~Atkins72
Stats: 170/133/140 Female 62 inches
BF:24%
Progress: 123%
Location: Nevada Desert, USA
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As an "hour glass" person I can tell you how my fat has always been distributed. When I gain or lose weight, it's as if air is being let out of or added to a balloon. Everything grows or shrinks in tandem.

The biggest difference I've noticed over the years is others' perception of my weight. I weigh about 20 lbs more than they think I do. I guess I carry it differently. I always thought this is because my genes from my paternal side are big, heavy and those from my maternal side are small and light. I'm a short person with heavy bones. IDK what's accurate.
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  #1319   ^
Old Mon, Jan-27-20, 10:11
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 14,680
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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https://www.sciencedaily.com/releas...00123170721.htm

Intervention study with a fasting arm. 5:2 style, where two days a week, self-selected, are very low calorie. Plans were self-selected, that's interesting in itself. I wonder how compliance compares to the same intervention, but with people randomized into diets.

4 kg weight loss for the fasting group might be described as modest--but for an intervention study like this, it's not bad.

The paleo diet was altered to include grains, beans, and dairy. It's beyond me how this could have left much difference between it and the Mediterranean diet.

Quote:
Weight loss and health improvements with Mediterranean, fasting & Paleo diets


There were some weight loss and health benefits for overweight adults who followed the Mediterranean, Intermittent Fasting and Paleo diets, though adherence to the diets dropped off considerably during the one-year study, new University of Otago research shows.

Intermittent fasting -- whereby participants limit their energy intake to about 25 per cent of their usual diet (500kcal for women and 600kcal for men) on two self-selected days per week, led to slightly more weight loss than the other diets. The Mediterranean diet also improved blood sugar levels.

Co-lead author Dr Melyssa Roy, a Research Fellow in the Department of Medicine, says the amount of weight loss was modest -- on average two to four kilograms for the 250 participants, but for those choosing the fasting or Mediterranean diets, clinically significant improvements in blood pressure were also seen.

The aim of the research was to examine how effective all three diets were in a "real world" setting, where participants self-selected which diet they wished to follow, without any ongoing support from a dietitian.

Dr Roy says the evidence shows that for some people the Mediterranean, fasting or paleo (Paleolithic) diets can be "healthful, beneficial ways to eat."

"This work supports the idea that there isn't a single 'right' diet -- there are a range of options that may suit different people and be effective. In this study, people were given dietary guidelines at the start and then continued with their diets in the real world while living normally. About half of the participants were still following their diets after a year and had experienced improvements in markers of health.

"Like the Mediterranean diet, intermittent fasting and paleo diets can also be valid healthy eating approaches -- the best diet is the one that includes healthy foods and suits the individual."

The Mediterranean diet encouraged consumption of fruit, vegetables, whole-grain breads and cereals, legumes, nuts, seeds and olive oil with moderate amounts of fish, chicken, eggs and diary and red meat once a week or less.

The paleo diet consists of mostly less-processed foods with an emphasis on eating fruit and vegetables, animal proteins, nuts, coconut products and extra-virgin olive oil. While "original" Paleo diets strictly exclude all legumes, dairy and grains, this study used a modified version including some dairy as well as up to one serving daily of legumes and grain-based food.

Co-lead author Dr Michelle Jospe, a Postdoctoral Fellow in the Department of Medicine, says the results showed people found the Mediterranean diet to be the easiest to adhere to.

"Our participants could follow the diet's guidelines more closely than the fasting and paleo diets and were more likely to stay with it after the year, as our retention rates showed."

Most of the 250 participants (54 per cent) chose the fasting diet, while 27 per cent chose the Mediterranean and 18 per cent the paleo. After 12 months, the Mediterranean diet had the best retention rate with 57 per cent of participants continuing, with 54 per cent still fasting and 35 per cent still on the paleo diet.

After 12 months, the average weight loss was 4.0kg for those choosing the fasting diet, 2.8kg on the Mediterranean diet and 1.8kg on the paleo diet.

Reduced systolic blood pressure was observed among those participating in the fasting and Mediterranean diets, together with reduced blood sugar levels in the Mediterranean diet.

Dr Jospe explains participants who said they were still following their diet at 12 months lost even more weight, showing the importance of choosing a diet that is sustainable.

She believes the results of this study are relevant to the thousands of people following self-chosen diets with little supervision and indicates more realistic outcomes.



So I found this bit interesting;


C
Quote:
o-lead author Dr Michelle Jospe, a Postdoctoral Fellow in the Department of Medicine, says the results showed people found the Mediterranean diet to be the easiest to adhere to.

"Our participants could follow the diet's guidelines more closely than the fasting and paleo diets and were more likely to stay with it after the year, as our retention rates showed."

Most of the 250 participants (54 per cent) chose the fasting diet, while 27 per cent chose the Mediterranean and 18 per cent the paleo. After 12 months, the Mediterranean diet had the best retention rate with 57 per cent of participants continuing, with 54 per cent still fasting and 35 per cent still on the paleo diet.


Bit of bias here, do you really want to make out that 54 percent still fasting is that much worse than 57 percent still on the Mediterranean diet? Also, since half as many even chose the Mediterranean diet in the first place--in a real-world setting of whether people even go on a diet, way more people might get helped on that fasting regime.

And that poor Paleo performance for selection--adding dairy, grains and beans in small amounts--you can't do that and actually think there's legitimately anything to the popular Paleo diet. If Loren Cordain or Rob Wolff's version of paleo had been used, I'd bet there'd have been more people choosing paleo.
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  #1320   ^
Old Mon, Jan-27-20, 12:28
Benay's Avatar
Benay Benay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 793
 
Plan: Protein Power/Atkins
Stats: 250/181/165 Female 5 feet 6 inches
BF:
Progress: 81%
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
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Agree with you. The "Keto" diet looks hokey.

I have just returned from shopping at Natural Foods (a "healthy" food store promoting the vegan diet) where they are now advertising the keto diet. I have trouble getting my mind around a vegan keto diet promoting grains and veggies.

I went there to get the Egg protein powder - as recommended - since my local health food store has closed. Most places seem to sell whey.
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