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  #1   ^
Old Mon, Jun-28-04, 09:55
ManOfSteel's Avatar
ManOfSteel ManOfSteel is offline
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Talking Medical World Debates Risk of Being Pudgy - or the B in BMI

Medical World Debates Risk of Being Pudgy

2 hours, 1 minute ago



By DANIEL Q. HANEY, AP Medical Editor

There is little doubt among mainstream health professionals that being truly obese is a health hazard. But what about the borderline plump? The mildly pudgy? All those people with BMIs between 25 and 29, who according to the charts are overweight?

Government health agencies often lump all degrees of overweight together, noting for instance that over 60 percent of Americans are too heavy. But more than half of these people — roughly one-third of all Americans and 800 million people worldwide — are overweight but not obese.

Riding to the mall one Saturday, Joanne Ikeda's younger sister turned to her and asked, out of nowhere, "Do you know that I am now overweight?"

From heart-sinking personal experience, millions upon millions of people can imagine exactly what led up to that admission. She had stepped on the scales and noticed a number a little north of usual. So she looked it up on a body mass index chart. And — No! — she was officially too heavy.

Not obese, not even close. But her BMI was 26, a full, leaden point above the carved-in-stone cutoff for being overweight.

Many who are overweight but not obese are like Ikeda's sister, Irene Pakel: 55 years old, 5-foot-3, weight in the mid-140s, maybe 10 pounds or so into the overweight category. Does she have a weight problem, one that might even shorten her life?

To many in the field, the answer is clear.

"Over 99 percent of experts throughout the world are convinced by overwhelming data that being overweight is a huge problem indeed for the majority of the world," says Dr. Philip James, chairman of the International Obesity Task Force in London.

But as co-director of the Center for Weight and Health at the University of California at Berkeley, Ikeda has a professional, though somewhat contrarian, opinion: Not likely.

"She's very physically fit," says Ikeda. "She goes to Curves everyday after work. To look at her, you would say, 'Here is someone who is not even slightly chubby.'"

Ikeda has a weight problem of her own. Her BMI is 33, which makes her officially obese. Does that bother her? "Not really," she said. "What matters is my metabolic fitness."

Some in the world of diet and health — and as James says, they are a minority — feel too much is made of the lower end of the BMI scale, that perhaps even the entire category called overweight causes much anxiety for nothing.

"This is so ludicrous," says Ikeda. "Why are we doing this to ourselves? I think it has a lot to do with the dieting and pharmaceutical industry and the pressure to medicate every condition."

"A completely phony category" is what University of Colorado attorney Paul Campos calls overweight. He is author of "The Obesity Myth" and argues that the real health problem is too little exercise, not too much weight.

"There is no basis in the medical literature to draw the conclusion that having a BMI between 25 and 29 an is an independent health risk," he says. "It is quite preposterous to make that claim."

Such out-of-step pronouncements are fighting words in the field of nutrition and health, where many consider the evils of fat to be beyond question.

Former New England Journal of Medicine (news - web sites) Editor Jerome Kassirer remembers the indignation six years ago when he wrote a skeptical editorial calling the data linking weight and ill health "limited, fragmentary and often ambiguous."

"We got flack from just about everybody except the fatties," he remembers, although he hasn't seen anything since to change his mind.

One of the most persistent doubters is Steven Blair of the Cooper Aerobics Center in Dallas. His research buttresses the idea that fitness is more important than fatness.

Following 25,000 Cooper patients for eight years, he found that it is better to be fit and fat than skinny and sedentary. In fact, overweight people who have good stamina on a treadmill test live just as long as equally fit people who are not overweight.

"If you look at people in the overweight category, many have none of the conventional risk factors, like elevated blood pressure and cholesterol," says Blair. "Should they be stigmatized and treated? For what?"

Many obesity experts concede Blair has a point: People who are overweight but fit probably do escape many of the consequences of their size. But they often add: So what?

"It may be true, but the fact is, overweight people are not fit," says Dr. Xavier Pi-Sunyer, head of obesity research at St. Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital Center in New York City. "The average American is incredibly sedentary."

Not always, says Blair. About half of the oversize people who get physical exams at Cooper in fact are physically fit, based on their treadmill tests. While hardly a random sample — these people are overwhelmingly white, educated and well off — Blair contends plenty of overweight Americans are just like him.

"I'm a short fat guy," says Blair, whose BMI is about 32. "Would I rather be a short thin guy? Sure. But I'm not. I run everyday and eat a healthy diet and do what I can."

Until a few years ago, government agencies generally agreed that concern about weight begins when a man's BMI hits 28 and a woman's 27. That's 152 pounds for a 5-foot-3 female. But in 1997, the World Health Organization (news - web sites) adopted a new standard. BMIs between 25 and 29.9 were now "preobese."

The next year, an expert committee of the U.S. National Institutes of Health (news - web sites) came to the same conclusion and called the new category "overweight." Suddenly an extra 35 million Americans were judged to have weight problems.

"We felt it makes sense that if someone's BMI is between 25 and 30, they should not gain more weight," says Pi-Sunyer, who headed the U.S. committee. "We don't feel those millions of people should be trying desperately to lose weight. At a BMI of 30, the risk for both disease and early mortality is so great that people should begin to lose weight."

The 25 cutoff was chosen, he said, because of evidence that the risk of diabetes, high blood pressure and high cholesterol all seem to increase around that point.

The studies backing this up are mostly reviews of large population groups that look for ties between increasing weight and the risk of various diseases and death. The individual studies may have flaws, but taken together, many contend they draw a convincing picture of weight being on a continuum from good health to ill.

"Some say it's all made up, that there's no risk to being moderately overweight," says Dr. Lawrence J. Cheskin, director of the Johns Hopkins Weight Management Center. "But there is more and more data to show a very definite dose effect. The heavier you are, the greater your risk."

Some believe the ideal body weight is actually around a BMI of 20 or 21, or a willowy 115 pounds for that 5-foot-3 woman. Others put it closer to 24 or 25. "Everybody agrees that if your BMI is 28, you are at increased risk," says Dr. Steven Heymsfield of St. Luke's-Roosevelt.

This view is backed by studies showing mortality inching up gradually when BMIs reach the high 20s, then climbing more sharply through the 30s and beyond.

One of the most recent, published last year in the Journal of the American Medical Association (news - web sites), concludes that white men and women lose about an average year of life if their BMIs top 26 or 27 by the time they reach middle age. However, for reasons that are not easy to explain, this may not be true for blacks. They actually seem to live a year or so longer if overweight but not obese.

While some question the scientific rigor of the mortality estimates, there is less disagreement that common health problems increase among people who are overweight but still below the obesity threshold of a BMI of 30.

For instance, a woman with a BMI of 26 is twice as likely as one who is 21 to develop coronary heart disease. She is twice as likely to get high blood pressure. And she is eight times as likely to get diabetes. Of course, a very thin woman has only a tiny risk of these diseases, so a risk that is double or triple may still be small.

Nevertheless, national health surveys show that about a quarter of people who are overweight but not obese have metabolic syndrome, a particularly worrisome combination of high blood sugar, high blood pressure, low HDL and high triglycerides.

Diabetes is an especially important concern, even for those nowhere near rotund. In fact, the ideal size for avoiding this disease appears to be around a BMI of 22. The risk goes up 25 percent with each unit of BMI after that, and it appears to be especially great for those with pot bellies, even small ones.

Of course, just because surveys of thousands of people show a clear link between rising BMIs and bad health doesn't mean that any particular individual is in trouble with a BMI that hits 25. Many lucky people carry their extra pounds with no ill effect, especially if they have normal blood sugar, healthy blood pressure and no worrisome cholesterol signs.

Many experts contend the biggest hazard of being overweight is what almost inevitably comes next.

"Fat people get fatter," says Dr. Peter McCullough, head of the weight control center at Beaumont Hospital in suburban Detroit. "It is very clear that those who are overweight will become obese over time. People need to understand they have to get this under control."

___

EDITOR'S NOTE: Medical Editor Daniel Q. Haney is a special correspondent for The Associated Press.

___

On the Net:

Overweight statistics:

http://www.niddk.nih.gov/health/nut...bs/statobes.htm what

BMI chart: http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/obesity/bmi_tbl.htm



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  #2   ^
Old Mon, Jun-28-04, 10:28
DebPenny's Avatar
DebPenny DebPenny is offline
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Quote:
the ideal size for avoiding this disease [diabetes] appears to be around a BMI of 22

The ideal method for avoiding this disease is keeping your bloodsugar/insulin low (i.e. limiting carbohydrates). BMI is not a factor. It just appears to be because people who overeat carbs tend to gain weight too. There are plenty of lower-weight people who get type II diabetes.

My BMI is currently 34.6. But I am no longer at risk for diabetes because I am controlling my bloodsugar and insulin through low-carbing. My other health-risk indicators are also low -- all due to low-carbing.

This article still seems to make weight the cause rather than a symptom. If weight were the cause, no amount of controlling my bloodsugar/insulin would keep me from becoming diabetic.

On top of everything, it hasn't been in the news lately, but there have also been studies that appear to show that losing weight does not improve a person's overall health risk and may even make it worse. My opinion on that is that if you lose weight but continue to eat mostly carbs, you are not making yourself healthier even with exercise.

BTW: My goal BMI is 24-25. But I intend at that point to have a decent body-fat percentage, and that is my primary measure. And I'm not going for skinny, I personally don't think skinny women are very attractive.
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  #3   ^
Old Mon, Jun-28-04, 11:32
bvtaylor's Avatar
bvtaylor bvtaylor is offline
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Talking The trouble with BMI...

To me, the trouble with BMI is that it doesn't take into account different types of build, whether bone structure or muscle tone. The range for "healthy" is kind of broad but averages out everyone, so for those of us who are not average, it is tough to guage.

My BMI ranges from about 26.2 (at 148) to 25.3 (at 143). I've been bouncing around here for a couple of months. I can relate to the women in these examples. I went to the Dr. this weekend and asked her if 125 should still be my goal. She said it sounded reasonable, then looked at my body again and told me that I have a few rolls which I could lose, but that I had a muscular build and that at my current weight I was healthy (bloodwork illustrated that as well), so I didn't have any urgent weight loss need.

My bodyfat percentage on mybodycomp was in the 27 range, on my Tanita it ranges from 27 to 29 percent when I'm properly hydrated.

I'd like to get down to 20% body fat, which means I need to lose around 7-10% of my current weight in body fat which gives me a target of roughly between 137 and 132 lbs or 10 - 15 lbs of body fat to lose remaining.

I keep this info from WEBMD handy:

The CDC provides the following ranges for BMI values for adults:

Underweight - Less than 18.5
Recommended - 18.6 to 24.9
Overweight - 25.0 to 29.9
Obese - 30 or greater

The American Council on Exercise provides the following ranges for body-fat percentage:

********** Women --- Men

Essential fat - 10-12% -- 2-4%
Athletes------ 14-20% -- 6-13%
Fitness------- 21-24% -- 14-17%
Acceptable--- 25-31% -- 18-25%
Obese-------- 32% plus - 26% plus

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  #4   ^
Old Mon, Jun-28-04, 11:38
ItsTheWooo's Avatar
ItsTheWooo ItsTheWooo is offline
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What they are saying is ridiculous. It's like if they were saying "those who cough and wheeze frequently are at a higher risk for developing lung cancer, emphysema, pneumonia, the common cold, flu, among other respiratory diseases". Coughing doesn't cause any of those things, it is merely a symptom of various diseases.

It's not the obesity, it's all the things that promote obesity which cause the diseases. Obesity is a sign of metabolic disorder, not a disease. It's the metabolic disorder which is causing the hyperlipidemia which causes and is related to heart disease. It's the hyperinsulinemia which leads to diabetes, as well as contributing to the obesity itself. Reducing hyperinsulinemia and hyperlipidemia associated with insulin resistance has much less to do with typical slimming preoccupations like how many calories you are eating & how much exercise you are getting, than they do types of calories. Don't get me wrong, not exercising and eating a lot of calories does promote hyperinsulinemia and hyperlipidemia... just not *nearly* as much as eating the wrong kinds of calories for an insulin resistant person does.

The problem with trying to treat "obesity" - this symptom of disease - is that it makes the task much more difficult than it needs to be. If we instead just went after the #1 cause of morbid obesity & obesity (metabolic disorder insulin resistance) by eating low glycemic, we would find obesity levels as well as disorders that cluster with obesity would all fall dramatically. Of course, ironically the same obesity researchers probably would recommend the absolute worst diet for metabolic disorder related obesity (high carb & low fat). Such a diet is virtually unlivable to someone with insulin resistance (can you say "starving 10 minutes after a meal?"), and most definitely unsustainable for this reason. They not only are not the most optimal for controlling insulin resistance and reducing disease (they may help if the calories are so low that it is a low glycemic diet relative to your previous diet), but by being so unsustainable and unsatisfying they also exacerbate the problem by promoting a yo-yo diet mentality.
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  #5   ^
Old Mon, Jun-28-04, 12:40
bvtaylor's Avatar
bvtaylor bvtaylor is offline
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Lightbulb Cause, Effect, and When it is a Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheWooo
What they are saying is ridiculous. It's like if they were saying "those who cough and wheeze frequently are at a higher risk for developing lung cancer, emphysema, pneumonia, the common cold, flu, among other respiratory diseases". Coughing doesn't cause any of those things, it is merely a symptom of various diseases.

It's not the obesity, it's all the things that promote obesity which cause the diseases.
I totally agree with the premise that Obesity is a symptom rather than a disease. But this raises another issue... what is the point that being "overweight" is symptomatic of an emerging metabolic disorder vs. merely a behavioral change?

The Atkins website hilighted a study several months ago that showed that more than calories alone, the sedentary nature of most of our lifestyles (we have a lot more conveniences than our ancestors) seems to stand behind the gradual creep in weight both in the US and elsewhere in the developed world.

Couple the lack of activity with a serious increase in refined carbohydrates and it certainly promotes problems. But note that carbohydrates can be tolerated in much greater quantities by people who are extremely active. That's how Atkins explains the diet of folks in Asia who eat a lot more rice and other carbohydrates in general.

Although 60% of the nation (US) may be overweight, that means that 40% of the US population is maintaining (or at least AT) a healthy weight and I would venture that not all of them are low-carb eaters. Some people have more tolerance to carbohydrates, have different body types and metabolic rates, so it's always hard to make any type of indicator one-size-fits-all. And naturally some of those people also exercise a lot.

There are issues with a gradual and small weight gain (overweight) and a serious health-risk weight gain (obesity). It may be one and the same issue or it may be separate ones. Not all of those who are overweight or obese have a metabolic disorder and conversely not all those who are overweight or obese do.

Looking at an individual and trying to identify where the problem is may not be as simple as just counting carbohydrates. I believe that exercise may be an even more important factor in general than carbohydrate control--although the two together are amazingly powerful in controling obesity.
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Old Mon, Jun-28-04, 13:04
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DebPenny DebPenny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bvtaylor
Although 60% of the nation (US) may be overweight, that means that 40% of the US population is maintaining (or at least AT) a healthy weight and I would venture that not all of them are low-carb eaters.

But I'd be willing to bet that most of them are under 30. The problem with these stats is that they don't show the age breakdown. It takes time for most people to get fat. So even though all those skinny people are eating a lot of carbs, they may still have the developing problems that will show up as they age, including overweight/obesity. Their age makes them appear immune to the problems of eating too many carbs.
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Old Mon, Jun-28-04, 13:13
bluesmoke bluesmoke is offline
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Obesity causes diabetes like high cholesterol causes heart attacks, in both cases, people who should know better confuse symptoms with causes. Nyah Levi
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Old Mon, Jun-28-04, 13:31
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Body weight studies are very hard to make sense of. At what timedo you assign the weight? Cancer patients usually lose lots of weight before they die. If you use death weight, then that will bias the results to show that being thin is unhealthy. Uncontrolled diabetes will cause weight loss and I know of two formerly obese persons whose diabetes were caught after they both had lost many pounds and were of 'normal' weight. If you go by the weight they were at when diagnosed, then again the statistics are biased.

One thing that cannot be denied is that the average American is significantly heavier than 30 years ago. I doubt that the increase is muscle.
I saw this article in my local newspaper on Sunday. It had a picture of Joanne Ikeda and her sister. I saw the picture before reading the article and I thought that the sister was slightly chubby and the Joanne could stand to lose a lot of weight.
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Old Mon, Jun-28-04, 18:24
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CindySue48 CindySue48 is offline
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Quote:
Some people have more tolerance to carbohydrates, have different body types and metabolic rates, so it's always hard to make any type of indicator one-size-fits-all. And naturally some of those people also exercise a lot.


What they don't write about in these articles, though, is that some of these will also become diabetic, develop heart disease, etc....but remain at a good weight. I have several friends who were always thin, but developed diabetes....or I should say they were thin before being treated for diabetes!

Also....back when I was working, weight gain was seen as a symptom of diabetes, and was a red-flag to check and monitor a patient's blood sugar. Today, weight gain is seen as a cause of diabetes...diabetes is a symptom of weight gain. If the patient isn't diabetic yet, they may get counseling on prevention....but the information it'self is bad. Most likely, tho all the doc is going to do is tell the patient to loose weight....with little or no help, advice, support.
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  #10   ^
Old Tue, Jun-29-04, 02:56
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tholian8 tholian8 is offline
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The "B" in BMI ought to stand for "bu!!$#!t." There is entirely too much individual variation to make it a useful measure for anything other than looking at large groups of people statistically. Used for individuals, it's another way to define "obesity" downwards so as to catch more people in the net of the massive diet and fitness industry. Anything that can be used to classify stick people as "healthy weight" and athletic people as "obese" should be thrown right in the bin with all the other trash.
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Old Tue, Jun-29-04, 04:53
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UpTheHill UpTheHill is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bvtaylor

Although 60% of the nation (US) may be overweight, that means that 40% of the US population is maintaining (or at least AT) a healthy weight


Actually, that 40% will also include those that are underweight. It's interesting that we don't see the percentage of people who are below healthy weight called out in the breakouts.

Lynda
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