60 Minutes just had a segment about the Pima Indians in Arizona. Before WWII they were farmers and thin, and many competed in long distance racing. After WWII, the goverment damned up their irragation water, and they were not farming, and the goverment was providing them with food, mainly white flour. (A lot of the men went off to war, and thats when/why these changes were allowed to happen).

Obesity and diabetes went through the roof!

Now the government is trying to study their genetics to see how it causes obesity. They are spending millions on this. Yet, at least one person seems to know what the problem is. A nun at a school there petitioned the govt to change the kids diets in school (basically lower carb, and more veggies), and is trying to get the kids to excercise.

My opinion is that genetics cannot be the cause of obesity with this population--because the genetics have been held constant. The thing that changed was the end of the farming (physically hardworking) lifestyle and the end of the whole foods they grew and ate.

Granted, genetics explains why the Pima are more likely to get obese and have diabetes than "Whites" do when eating the same diet. But the genetics is not causing the problem.

Very sad to see the difference between the Pima on film pre-WWII compared to the population today. Same genes, yet before they looked lean and now they look fat.

I'm not trying to blame them. In fact, my wife pointed out that the govt taking away their water and giving them white flour is about the same as when it gave other native americans smallpox. I don't think it was deliberate as that, but the effect may be nearly the same.

I think this says a lot about Americans in general. I think it says getting obese is caused by a lack of excerise and the introduction of a poor diet. Overeating isn't necessarily the main point, but eating too much of the bad stuff, and not enough of the good stuff is the point.

I agree with you on some degree.... I think that a lot of obesity is caused by lack of exercise and poor diet. (Myself included!)....

But I do believe that there are some people out there that are genetically inclined to obesity. Insulin reistance is one of the genentic things that can assist in obeseity. This is the excepton, not the norm - of course, many people will use "genetics" as an excuse to be obese, which it shouldn't be.

What a shame that the gov't can't see what the problem is. It's very sad.

Well, hope you weren't looking to cash in on any grants for research on this. If you're not going to be pointing the finger at genetics, red meat, cholesterol, little green men from Area 51, or whatever, then I doubt you're going to be considered for any grants...

It IS their genetics that makes them particularly susceptible to obesity with the change in diet. It is true for most people who are genetically descended from populations that have long been nomadic, rather than farmers. Nomadic peoples have had extreme pressure to stash fat at the slightest overage, where farming populations had a more stable supply of food.

While it is the change in diet that puts the fat on these populations, it is their genes that makes them pack it on faster than it might go on someone like me.

Similar logic applies to the rates of alcoholism in these populations--farming communities suffered enormous die-offs of people who were unable to tolerate any alcohol at the time we first started living in cities. Nomadic peoples didn't HAVE to drink fermented beverages because they didn't pollute their water the way people living in cities did, so they never had the "test."

You can see the same effect in why some people descended from populations that survived the plague do better with AIDS.

I am very confused by kestrel's post. I assume it was an attempt to be sarcastic???

I'm pretty much there withyou,jeffrey, after the industrial revolution and the modernization of farming and mass production overseas, the american diet changed DRASTICALLY. And it shows- (as there have been many [probably grant funded] studies done by REAL scientists).
The example you used concerning the native americans is a fine representation of this.

Any of the aboriginal people's in North America that adopted the "civilized" diet and discarded their traditional hunter-gather diets, saw sky-rocketing incidences of tuberculosis, diabetes, heart disease that far surpassed the stats in agricultural settlers. They were genetically unable to tolerate the settler's diets and, in the old days of tuberculosis, had to go back to the reserve and return to their traditional diet to cure their tuberculosis.

The Pimas generally have the thrifty gene to store body fat, as someone said. Don't know if it was mentioned but some teenagers in the population are developing diabetes. They are eating a very high fat/high carb, nutrient poor diet.

I agree that genetics don't cause obesity... but metabolism traits are inherited. Unless you've inherited a serious metabolic disease, you're not genetically doomed to being overweight.

Then again, if all you know about nutrition is the food pyramid, I guess you are doomed...

I think very few people believe that genetics is the sole cause of obesity. However, it cannot be disputed that genetic potential plays a role so crucial that obesity *would not* exist without it.

Obesity is the result of genetic potential interacting with certain environmental triggers (mainly, a diet too high in refined energy). Even though ultimately you can control your obesity by controlling your diet and lifestyle (removing the triggers), we must not forget the importance of having genetic potential.

Me and my siblings grew up on identical diets.
My brother never had a weight problem and was always skinny - the refined foods he ate were a very satisfying source of energy for him, and his body was capable of keeping weight and energy intake normal.
My sisters had more of a problem with them than he did, and became overweight, but not to the point of obesity.
I, on the other hand, like my brother, was the weight-exception. Whereas my brother was exceptional in that he stayed very slim naturally and ate very little, I became very overweight and ate a lot.

Changing the composition of my diet gave me control over food and hunger. I shouldn't say "control" as that implies something occurring within the conscious mind - actually it was a natural normalizing of energy intake.

What do I think is responsible for the difference in weights between me and my brother and sisters? I think a lot of it is genetic. We ate similar types of food, we lived similar lifestyles, yet for one of us they maintained very thin weight, for another two they became "chubby" but still normal, and for me I became morbidly obese. Now it's possible it could be psychological differences causing the weight diversity, however I doubt it. While a certain degree of obesity can be attributed to psychological issues (using food to self-medicate, or having no psychological interest in food for example) and I would recognize this in both myself and my brother (I greatly enjoyed food, whereas much of his life he couldn't stand eating), I don't think it's enough to account for such a marked divergence in weight. The body naturally regulates its weight and energy intake over a long period of time, and tends to jealously guard its set point weight. A healthy person will not diverge too far above or below this set point without their body changing things around to get them back to where it wants to be.

Maybe chubbiness might be attributed to loving to eat food (like my sisters, who do love to eat as I do), but the kind of obesity I had was I think significantly the result of physiological issues. A healthy body will not become 150 lbs overweight. Hyperinsulinemia and insulin resistance in response to diet, on the other hand, will create an anabolic/fat storing metabolic environment in which catabolism is nearly impossible (due to the high insulin).

One more thing...
The obesity/overweight statistics lie. Even though our weights are climbing, they are not all climbing evenly. Those likely without a genetic tendancy towards obesity (the vast majority of the population) are staying pretty much the same, and fluctuating only within a very small amount of pounds... gaing 5 or so maybe. Those who have a tendancy to be fat, on the other hand, are seeing a sharp dramatic increase in weight (in response to increased carb consumption). In other words, those of us who have a natural tendancy towards heaviness are becoming very fat, those without it are not.

The obesity "epidemic" is mostly an invention of the diet industry, designed to threaten people with a symptom of a disease they likely do not have the genetic potential to express.

I think obesity is more than that. My family is probably fairly typical with regard to weight. As kids and young adults we are thin and healthy. Then our lifestyle changes and we still keep eating a lot. We become overweight and obese, and get diabetes and die off earlier than we otherwise would.

Genetic? Nope. Family members that stay active and eat a better diet remain thin and do not get diabetes.

America is getting fatter across the board, across genetically different people, because Americans are less active and are eating crap.

At least, that's what I think. And the problem is only worse for those who have a natural genetic pre-disposition to get really obese from food that just makes other people overweight.

You are right, but ?????? my ex girlfriend 4 feet 11 and 170 pounds, here sister 5 feet and a very slim 115 pounds, here father 5 feet 7 and 220 pounds here mother 5 feet 1 and 140 pounds.

"Granted, genetics explains why the Pima are more likely to get obese and have diabetes than "Whites" do when eating the same diet. But the genetics is not causing the problem."

Wow, you are really contradicting yourself here.

If things were this simple, I think there'd be a lot less obese people in America. There is a genetic predisposition in some people (like degrees of insulin resistance), that may or may not be realized throughout one's life. It's a combination of nature (genetics) and the environment that can cause obesity.

It's like having schizophrenia; you need a combination of genetics and environmental factors to come into play before it manifests itself.

I think environment has a really big part to play. (begin rant)

I now work in a state that is number two I think, in overall obesity rates (WV). I am from a state that has a much lower rate (CA). The food choices here in Appalachia are vastly different than they are back home.

Now, I was fat back home as well. But I had more CHOICES. (I just made really bad ones) For instance, my normal supermarkets where I lived had produce sections that took up a full quarter (at least!) of the store. (I went home earlier in the year, before I began LCing, and noticed then, so its not a bias). The dairy and butcher were very well stocked, and whole foods in general are much more prevalent. Out here, processed foods and junk take up a great deal more real estate. I had no idea potato chips had so many flavors. There are cans of things I still can't really get my head around. Even the whole foods are odd to me. Who knew you could eat so many parts of a pig, and why is it pickled/pre-breaded/in a special container? Corn and potatoes are kings. I know people here who have never tasted fresh asparagus (and lets face it; canned asparagus is disgusting). Can't pronounce avocado, much less identify one. I have to drive 25 miles for parsley. Like, 60 percent of the produce is high glycemic, and a good deal of the more affordable meat is processed and high in calories.

In this county, most (yes most) of the population is on food stamps. You have to stretch your dollars to feed your family, and guess what? Most of the cheap stuff is highly processed, high carb, high glycemic crap. And it tastes starchy and sweet and good. Pick up a can of soup. Corn syrup is in the top five ingredients. Always.

I saw a mom the other day, a college educated, normally on the ball local mom, take out a pacifier and douse it in Dr. Pepper, then stick it in her crying baby's mouth. Twice in ten minutes. What the heck is that?!!

The low carb diet is creeping in, but in insidious ways. Its all junk food (I try so hard not to buy it, but its difficult). People figure if they can eat LC ice cream and a bag of LC chips, its still okay.

Staying LC is not easy in most situations (IMHO) but here, culturally, its pretty bad. When you come home and Mamaw had cooked up a big mess of fried chicken, cornbread and pinto beans, and you love it and her and have eaten that all your life, it must wear on the soul a bit to say no.

Its doable, but dang! I love this region, and the people are spectacular, but the dietary challenges they face are amazing. I wouldn't have lost a size or almost two in 3 months if I'd had to deal with that every day. I live alone, and am pretty much captain of my own kitchen.

(end rant)

I was thinking of starting a thread on budget LC. Or is there a good one I can reference? I'm not that great at searching on this site.

whew!

The Pima Indians, specifically, were the subject of a study I read several years ago in Scientific American. If I recall correctly, there was a genetically similar branch of the same tribe, living in Mexico.

The Pima group living in Mexico are quite healthy, as described in the original post before the government food program went into effect, while the US Pima are generally overweight/obese. It was pretty clear when I read that article back in the mid-1990s that the problem with the Pimas (and the rest of us!) was diet, not genetics.