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  #16   ^
Old Mon, Aug-02-04, 01:20
dannysk dannysk is offline
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Plan: Atkins
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" All studies say that those who lose that much weight typically have abnormally slow metabolisms afterward - 25% slower due to starvation response "
These studies, of course, are for those on a low-calorie (carb rich) diet. Every time you empty your clycogen stores, you begin to break down fat to ketones..BUT until you have enough ketones to run your body, you convert protein to glucose. If the diet does not include enough protein you break down muscle. This causes the slowing down of metabolism in a carb rich low calorie diet which refills and re-empties glycogen stores every day. Dr. Miriam Nelson of Tufts U. USDA school of nutrition spells this all out in "strong women stay slim". She claims that 21-25% of all weight lost on a diet (low cal carb rich) is really muscle... but she never quite got to low-carb.

brobin:
Nutritionists know all about effecient carbs, they have the mantra "carbs are the body's most effecient food". I must have read that at least 100 times. It is probably one of the reasons that low-carb became popular. That is when people realized what they were really saying.

danny
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  #17   ^
Old Mon, Aug-02-04, 20:45
brobin's Avatar
brobin brobin is offline
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Posts: 470
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 231/172/175 Male 70 inches
BF:30%/19%/17%
Progress: 105%
Location: Ontario
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Dannysk.... LOL, you are correct. They love to tell you that carbs are so efficient and an easy fuel, then mock you when you suggest losing weight by eating low efficiency fuel.

But what do I know, apparently I am brain dead as I have not had my mandatory 130 grams of carbs a day to maintain brain function... ROFL...

Brobin
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  #18   ^
Old Tue, Aug-03-04, 17:56
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catfishghj catfishghj is offline
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Posts: 428
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 330/217/190 Male 70 in
BF:?/30/less than 20
Progress: 81%
Location: Tucson, AZ
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I believe that there is a metabolic advantage to fat and protien being less efficient fuels and I believe, based on things I have read, that the loss of ketones through breath and urine is a very minimal effect. But I thing these things are minor effects. This way of eating works mainly because you are not eating carbs which make you incredibly hungry.
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  #19   ^
Old Wed, Aug-04-04, 07:02
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adkpam adkpam is offline
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Plan: Atkins
Stats: 185/151/145 Female 67 inches
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Progress: 85%
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This means all carbs can be used for is fuel...they don't get used to rebuild cell membranes and muscle the way fat & protein do. Doesn't that give you a metabolic advantage right there? In terms of the fact that eating fat and protein are not only inefficient fuels, but some of it is diverted to body reconstruction off the top.
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  #20   ^
Old Wed, Aug-04-04, 08:50
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JL53563 JL53563 is offline
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Plan: The Real Human Diet
Stats: 225/165/180 Male 5'8"
BF:?/?/8.6%
Progress: 133%
Location: Wisconsin, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adkpam
This means all carbs can be used for is fuel...they don't get used to rebuild cell membranes and muscle the way fat & protein do. Doesn't that give you a metabolic advantage right there? In terms of the fact that eating fat and protein are not only inefficient fuels, but some of it is diverted to body reconstruction off the top.



Great point, adkpam. Why is it that otherwise intelligent people cannot see this?
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  #21   ^
Old Tue, Aug-10-04, 01:04
cc48510 cc48510 is offline
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Plan: Atkins
Stats: 320/220/195 Male 6'0"
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I suspect the numbers posted stating Fat was 97% Efficient are based on storage and a High-Carb Diet. I've seen it said quite often that Fat is the most efficiently stored fuel followed by Carbs and Protein [which is why they claim a diet should be Low in Fat and high in Carbs]...But, that's based on a typical High Carb Diet, and only comes into play when you eat too much. What it means is that if you eat a typical HC American Diet, that only 3% of your excess Fat Calories will be lost storing it as Body Fat versus 10% or more for Carbs and Protein.

But, that's only how efficiently its stored. What we're really concerned with is how efficiently its used as fuel and more importantly how the Macronutrient composition (LC vs. HC) effects that efficiency. Ketosis/Lipolysis is believed by many to be highly ineffcient in that fuel is outright wasted through sweat/urine/etc...A person on a typical HC Diet is not going to be in Ketosis/Lipolysis, but instead will be burning Carbs and storing extra Fat.

A person on a HC Diet will be using Carbs for energy and storing Fat for later use. Carbs are an efficient source of energy, and Fat is an efficient means of Storage. So, this is the optimal state to be in if you want to eat less, and gain weight. OTOH, when someone eats a LC Diet, they go into Ketosis/Lipolysis. In this state, they use Fat for fuel and generally store little or no new Fat. Fat is very inefficient when its actually used as fuel. Alot of it gets wasted.

Protein is not generally going to be used to an extensive degree for fuel. Some is needed to be converted to Glucose for those cells that can't use Ketones. But, most gets used to build new tissue, and for other needs that the body might have for it...and what is left over is not very easily converted and stored as fat, so Ketosis/Lipolysis is a very inefficient state, making it ideal for someone who wants to lose Weight/Fat.
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  #22   ^
Old Fri, Aug-13-04, 19:34
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tamarian tamarian is offline
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Plan: Atkins/PP/BFL
Stats: 400/223/200 Male 5 ft 11
BF:37%/17%/12%
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Location: Ottawa, ON
Default Study: All Calories Are Not Created Equal. Low-Carbohydrate Diets Have Metabolic Edge

Press Release
Source: SUNY Downstate Medical Center

All Calories Are Not Created Equal

Friday August 13, 2:24 pm ET

Researchers Say Low-Carbohydrate Diets Have Metabolic Edge

NEW YORK, Aug. 13 /PRNewswire/ -- In a paper published last week in the Nutrition Journal, researchers from SUNY Downstate Medical Center show that low-carbohydrate, high-protein diets can be expected to be more effective for weight loss than low-fat diets. Their supposition goes against long standing prejudices of the nutritional community which for years have claimed that only calories count in the battle to lose weight."There are numerous examples of low-carbohydrate diets being more effective than low-fat diets with the same number of calories. It doesn't always happen but it can happen," said Dr. Richard Feinman of the Department of Biochemistry, SUNY. "The nutritional establishment has been reluctant to accept this, because they say it violates the laws of thermodynamics. However, they have not really looked seriously at thermodynamics. If they had, they would see that these results are possible, and according to the second law of thermodynamics, are also to be expected."

Feinman and Fine reviewed the existing literature on studies that compared low-carbohydrate and low-fat nutritional approaches. In doing so, they found a sufficient number of reports in the literature to establish the existence of a metabolic advantage. Clinical studies from such well-established research facilities as Duke and Harvard(1)(2), among others, were reviewed and analyzed. The researchers tabulated results from 10 studies, demonstrating that low-carbohydrate diets can lead to greater weight loss than isocaloric low-fat diets.

To explain this metabolic advantage, Dr. Feinman and Dr. Eugene J. Fine suggest that carbohydrates make an efficient fuel for the body, whereas protein does not.

"Your brain needs glucose to function properly," Feinman said. "There's no argument about that. Now, this glucose can come from dietary carbohydrates, but your body can make glucose from protein and, to a much lesser degree, from fat. However, the process of making glucose from protein is inefficient, and to get the extra energy needed, your body will burn the fat that it has already stored. I think that's the bottom line."

The researchers stress that the human body is not a storage locker. They compare it to a machine, and the efficiency of the machine is controlled by hormones and enzymes, which are impacted by nutrients. Carbohydrates increase insulin and other hormones that regulate enzymes which can lead to storing fat rather than burning fat.

"Of course, people are different" said Dr. Eugene Fine, a professor of nuclear medicine at Downstate and Jacobi Medical Center in the Bronx. "But many people are sensitive to the effects of carbohydrates and for them, a low- carbohydrate diet is going to work well."

The practical point is that getting rid of the idea that "a calorie is a calorie" opens the door for serious research into what kind of diets will be most effective and which people will benefit most.

"This is important," Feinman explain "because millions of people are seriously trying to lose weight on low-carbohydrate diets, and instead of being given directions on the best way to do this, they have been largely discouraged by health professionals and self-appointed expert groups. The obesity epidemic is too important to allow this to happen."

(1) Westman, E.C., Mavropoulos, J., Yancy, W.S., et al., "A Review of
Low-Carbohydrate Ketogenic Diets", Current Atherosclerosis Reports,
5(6), 2003, pages 476-483.

(2) Greene, P., Willett, W., Devecis, J., et al., "Pilot 12-Week Feeding
Weight-Loss Comparison: Low-Fat vs Low-Carbohydrate (Ketogenic)
Diets," Abstract Presented at The North American Association for the
Study of Obesity Annual Meeting 2003, Obesity Research, 11S, 2003,

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040813/nyf088_1.html

Source: SUNY Downstate Medical Center
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  #23   ^
Old Fri, Aug-13-04, 22:00
JL53563's Avatar
JL53563 JL53563 is offline
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Posts: 1,209
 
Plan: The Real Human Diet
Stats: 225/165/180 Male 5'8"
BF:?/?/8.6%
Progress: 133%
Location: Wisconsin, USA
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Wow, it is very unusual to hear this kind of support for low carb eating. I hope this gets some attention from the media, although I fear it will not.
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  #24   ^
Old Sat, Aug-14-04, 10:00
CindySue48's Avatar
CindySue48 CindySue48 is offline
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Posts: 2,816
 
Plan: Atkins/Protein Power
Stats: 256/179/160 Female 68 inches
BF:38.9/27.2/24.3
Progress: 80%
Location: Triangle NC
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Good article. Thanks for posting
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  #25   ^
Old Sat, Aug-14-04, 12:38
VAgrrl VAgrrl is offline
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Posts: 196
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 140.5/121/120 Female 5'6"
BF:
Progress: 95%
Location: Virginia
Default

Their supposition goes against long standing prejudices of the nutritional community which for years have claimed that only calories count in the battle to lose weight.

"prejudices" is right!

"This is important," Feinman explain "because millions of people are seriously trying to lose weight on low-carbohydrate diets, and instead of being given directions on the best way to do this, they have been largely discouraged by health professionals and self-appointed expert groups. The obesity epidemic is too important to allow this to happen."

I just breathed a big sigh of relief when I read that--it's like Finally!!

thanks for the article
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  #26   ^
Old Sun, Aug-15-04, 11:44
ewert ewert is offline
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Posts: 79
 
Plan: Zone first, now just lowcarb my own way
Stats: 145/145/145 Male 166cm
BF:
Progress:
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"Protein is not generally going to be used to an extensive degree for fuel. Some is needed to be converted to Glucose for those cells that can't use Ketones. But, most gets used to build new tissue, and for other needs that the body might have for it...and what is left over is not very easily converted and stored as fat, so Ketosis/Lipolysis is a very inefficient state, making it ideal for someone who wants to lose Weight/Fat."

Technically (if one can say that about the human body), one doesn't need to use protein based gluconeogenesis to get the required glucose for operating anaerobic cells. Reforming anaerobically burned glucose back into glucose means all anaerobic energy can be "recycled" "infinitely" (not exactly, but you get my drift). The glucose that gets burned can be formed from the glyserol-base of fat burned for energy. According to one biochemistry text, the numbers came down to 19grams from fat glyserol and 16grams of glucose burned, so given a bit of leeway I'd say that comes suspiciously close to being evolutionarily purposeful: barring refueling after anaerobic bursts of excersice, the human body is totally fuelable by fat.

Go fat! Fat rules! :P
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  #27   ^
Old Sun, Aug-15-04, 14:00
ceberezin ceberezin is offline
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Posts: 619
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 155/140/140 Male 68
BF:18%
Progress:
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Quote:
Nutritionists know all about effecient carbs, they have the mantra "carbs are the body's most effecient food".

When nutritionists tell you to eat carbs because they are burned efficiently, they are assuming a particular logic to the body. Naturally, in their assumption, the body wants to burn the most efficient fuel, as any machine would. But there are other logics. The body is not a machine. It makes more sense to say that the body burns carbs before fat because it wants to get rid of them as quickly as possible before they can damage tissues through glycation.
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  #28   ^
Old Mon, Aug-16-04, 13:37
woodpecker woodpecker is offline
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Posts: 265
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 185/180/165 Male 68 inches
BF:25
Progress: 25%
Location: Nova Scotia
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I find that walking a mile or two a day for a month speeds up my metabolism and this effect will last for about 6 months with no further exercise. I usually do this in the summer and then in February - I start to put the weight on again.
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  #29   ^
Old Sun, Sep-12-04, 11:13
sb24u sb24u is offline
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Posts: 23
 
Plan: protien power/atkins
Stats: 210/189/125 Female 5'1 inches
BF:
Progress: 25%
Default excellent...

if it is true and real..it will be proven to be so.....great and important article....




Quote:
Originally Posted by nobimbo
Thermodynamic Edge For Low Carbohydrate Diets: SUNY Downstate Researchers Say All Calories Are NOT Alike

In a paper published in Nutrition Journal (Open Access, available without subscription at http://www.nutritionj.com/home), two researchers from SUNY Downstate Medical Center show that low carbohydrate, high protein diets can be expected to be more effective than low fat diets, going against long standing prejudice of the nutritional community, which has claimed that only calories count.

(PRWEB) July 31, 2004 -- “There are numerous examples of low carbohydrate diets being more effective than low fat diets with the same number of calories. It doesn’t always happen but it can happen,” said Dr. Richard Feinman of the Department of Biochemistry. “The nutritional establishment has been reluctant to accept this, because they say it violates the law of thermodynamics. However, they never seriously look at the thermodynamics, which not only says its possible, but it is to be expected.” he added.

In their paper, Dr. Feinman and Dr. Eugene J. Fine explain that thermodynamics is as much about efficiency as it is about energy conservation. Carbohydrate is an efficient fuel, whereas protein is not. On a low carbohydrate/high protein diet, even though total energy is conserved, more energy is wasted as heat, a process known as thermogenesis. This energy comes from burning fat.

The researchers stress that “the human body is not a storage locker. It is a machine and the efficiency of the machine is controlled by hormones and enzymes. Carbohydrates increase insulin and other hormones that regulate enzymes, leading to storage rather than burning of fat.”

“Of course, people are different” said the authors, “but many people are sensitive to the effects of carbohydrates and for them, a low carb diet is going to work well.”

The practical point is that getting rid of the idea that “a calorie is a calorie” opens the door for serious research into what kind of diets will be most effective and which people will benefit most. “This is important,” they explain “because millions of people
are seriously trying to lose weight on low carbohydrate diets, and instead of being given directions on the best way to do this, they have been largely discouraged by health professionals and self-appointed expert groups. The obesity epidemic is too important to allow this to happen.”

Note to editors/reporters: You can read the entire scientific paper by going to http://www.nutritionj.com/home and clicking on “Provisional PDF” at the bottom of the headline.

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/7/prweb145415.htm
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  #30   ^
Old Sun, Sep-12-04, 12:12
cc48510 cc48510 is offline
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Posts: 2,018
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 320/220/195 Male 6'0"
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Progress: 80%
Location: Pensacola, FL
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I did some searching, and it appears that once various fuels are actually metabolized, the percentage of available released is similar for both Fat and Carbs (about half.) But, the real issue is not what percentage is released, but what is wasted and how the energy is used. A "High Protein/Low Carb" diet is believed to be less efficient by some because it releases more energy as heat than a High Carb Diet. One other theory is that when ketone levels begin to rise too high, the body has to excrete them to keep its pH within an acceptable range. Thus, the body excretes fuels (Ketones) unused.

Unless you're a Diabetic, you don't excrete Glucose unused. Glucose is very efficient in that manner. If its not used its either converted back to Glucose/Glycogen, or converted to Fat, and stored on the body. Even in an Anaerobic Metabolism, when Glucose yields very little ATP (Energy) per unit of Glucose, it produces a byproduct (Lactate,) which the body can further Metabolized to get more ATP (Energy.) Lactate can also be converted back to Glucose [with very little loss of Energy] later on, and used again.

http://web.indstate.edu/thcme/mwkin...metabolism.html

Protein is unique in that depending on the Amino Acid composition, it may be metabolized more like Carbs or more like Fat. Amino Acids come in 3 types: Ketogenic, Glucogenic, and Keto/Glucogenic. In some instances, Amino Acids can be directly metabolized for energy.

The Ketogenic Amino Acids (Lysine and Leucine) CANNOT be converted the Glucose. They are metabolized to Acetyl CoA, the same stuff Fatty Acids are Metabolized to. From there, they are metabolized the same as Fatty Acids, including the possibility of being converted to Ketone Bodies.

The Keto/Glucogenic Amino Acids (Isoleucine, Phenylalanine, Threonine, Tryptophan, and Tyrosine) can be metabolized to either Acetyl CoA, Pyruvate, TCA Intermediates, or a combination thereof. Pyruvate and TCA Intermediates can be either metabolized for energy or converted to Glucose via Glucogenesis.

The Glucogenic Amino Acids (Glutamate, Aspartate, Alanine, Ornithine, Proline, Serine, Cysteine, Methionine, and Glycine) CANNOT be directly metabolized to Acetyl CoA, and thus don't yield Ketone Bodies. They are metabolized to Pyruvate or TCA Intermediates, which may be metabolized for energy or converted to Glucose.
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