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  #1   ^
Old Fri, Oct-01-10, 09:19
glasslid glasslid is offline
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Default Running - is burning carbs the same as not eating them in the first place?

Hi everyone! I am new here (and new to low carbing). I have a specific question re burning carbs. I've had a look through the forum but can't find the answer - hopefully I haven't just missed it!

I run about 6-7 miles per day (at about 8min/mile). I guess that counts as high intensity exercise, which supposedly burns 90% calories from carbs (as opposed to fat), so that's 450 calories. Given that 1g carbs = 4 cals, that means I'd burn 112.5g carbs (ish - I know there's a lot of guessing/estimating here!)

So my question is, if I eat 100g carbs a day, is that practically the same as someone who does no exercise eating zero carbs? Is it like calories in that if carbs eaten < carbs burned you're in the safe zone?

Thanks!
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  #2   ^
Old Fri, Oct-01-10, 11:20
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Seejay Seejay is offline
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Welcome glasslid!

That's a good question. My opinion is, the carb calories might work out the same, but the effect on your health is not so good from that kind of running. I think your calculations about calories from carb are right on but there is more to the story especially hormonally because of all the effects on the body of what "comes along for the ride" with daily high intensity runs.

From Mark Sisson's "Case Against Cardio" -

Quote:
But here’s the real take-home message for us: We did not evolve to rely heavily on a carbodydrate-fueled energy system, and yet, carbohydrate metabolism seems to rule our lives today. Yes, carbohydrate (in the form of glucose) can play a major role in the production of energy in skeletal muscle, but it turns out that the heart and skeletal muscle prefer fatty acids (fat) as fuel over glucose.

Our hunter-gatherer ancestors didn’t regularly ramp their heart rates up for over an hour a day like so many of us do now. Even when the concept of organized hunting came along, it would appear that our hunter-gatherer ancestors relied more on superior tracking ability (using our highly evolved and exceptionally large brains) and walking (using our superior fat-burning systems), rather than on actually “chasing down” their prey. In fact, squandering valuable energy reserves (and increasing carbohydrate [glucose] metabolism by a factor of ten) by running hard for long periods of time was so counterproductive it would have likely hastened your demise (imagine chasing some game animal for a few hours and – oops – not succeeding in killing it. You’ve spent an incredible amount of energy, yet now you have no food to replace that energy. You have suddenly become some other animals prey because you are physically exhausted).

So, what does all that mean for us in the 21st century seeking to maximize our health and fitness?

Well, we know that this current popular high intensity aerobic pursuit is a dead-end. It requires huge amounts carbohydrate (sugar) to sustain, it promotes hyperinsulinemia (overproduction of insulin), increases oxidative damage (the production of free radicals) by a factor of 10 or 20 times normal, and generates high levels of the stress hormone cortisol in many people, leaving them susceptible to infection, injury, loss of bone density and depletion of lean muscle tissue – while encouraging their bodies to deposit fat. Far from that healthy pursuit we all assumed it was! What, then, is the answer?

Knowing what we know about our hunter-gatherer ancestors and the DNA blueprint, we would ideally devise an aerobics plan that would have us walking or hiking several hours a day to maximize our true fat-burning systems and then doing intermittent “life or death” sprints every few days to generate those growth spurts that create stronger, leaner muscle.

However, since allocating a few hours a day to this pursuit is impractical for most people, we can still create a plan that has a fair amount of low level aerobic movement, such as walking briskly, hiking, cycling at a moderate pace, etc a few times a week and keep it at under an hour. Then, we can add a few intense “interval” sessions, where we literally sprint (or cycle or do anything intensely) for 20, 30 or 40 seconds at a time all out, and do this once or twice a week.
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  #3   ^
Old Fri, Oct-01-10, 12:06
jschwab jschwab is offline
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I think it depends on your metabolism. My observation from hanging around these threads and runners (I am a runner) is that if you metabolize carbs well - meaning no high blood sugars, no hypo episodes, etc - eating more carbs will give you more energy for your workouts and help with recovery, blah blah. If you are low carbing due to a metabolic issue that leaves you slumpy when you eat carbs, the carbs will eat into your energy for running. Me and hubby are opposite - I can handle lots of carbs and he gets more energy from zero carb (both runners). I find I have been able to lose weight on over 100 carbs a day, but only combined with intermittent fasting.
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  #4   ^
Old Fri, Oct-01-10, 12:15
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Seejay Seejay is offline
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jschwab do you run high intensity every day? (measuring by heart rate?) You are my go-to person for learning about running from someone who loves it and is doing well on it.
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  #5   ^
Old Fri, Oct-01-10, 13:51
jschwab jschwab is offline
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Plan: Atkins72/Paleo/NoGrain/IF
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seejay
jschwab do you run high intensity every day? (measuring by heart rate?) You are my go-to person for learning about running from someone who loves it and is doing well on it.


No, not at all, but I doubt the OP is, either. I think they were referring to the forum title (Advanced/High intensity) not the level of their workouts. I am recovering from injury and only slowly building miles, but I have never run more that 4-5 times a week to avoid injury - currently I run three days a week and will be adding a fourth day this coming week.

Two days usually a week I cross train, either doing high intensity drills/strength training specific to running, swimming (not so often since I'm really bad at it) or lifting weights/pylometrics. One day I will usually combine an easy run with a gym workout. My schedule looks like this:

Monday: rest (this is where I am adding a fourth running day)
Tuesday: 3-8 mile run with 4.5 miles tempo or 676 meter speed repeats
Wednesday and/or Friday: gym workout/strength training
Thursday or Friday: 3-7 mile easy run or sometimes hill repeats if Tuesday has been easy
Saturday:
Sunday: 10 mile long run

I have been running about 20 miles a week this past month and I'll jump to 30 by years' end. I don't train with a heart rate monitor but I do train by effort (easy effort on easy days; hard effort on tempo or speed runs). This week, for example, I ran 8 miles on Tuesday with tempo in the middle, had an upper body session with the trainer on Wednesday because I am training for an obstacle course mud run, ran hill repeats on Thursday. I'll rest today and tomorrow and Sunday I'll run my usual ten miles. I am feeling frisky this week, so I would probably go swimming tomorrow if I didn't have to go to DC for work.
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  #6   ^
Old Fri, Oct-01-10, 15:03
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Seejay Seejay is offline
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Ah, thank you. I don't know from pace so I thought OP's daily runs were high intensity.

That sounds like a very fun week. And nice balance of rest and friskiness. When I get to more of a fightin weight I want to take up roller blading. That could be like running right? only you can feel the breeze and no sweating and there is coasting. LOL
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  #7   ^
Old Fri, Oct-01-10, 15:57
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southpaw southpaw is offline
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I tend to agree with jschwab. I'm walking my first half marathon in about 4 weeks. I tried going low/no carb for my 9 mile walk last week, and not only bonked, but got dehydrated as well.

Tomorrow I have a 12 mile walk, and I've decided that I'm going to apply sort of the "carb cycling" principle to my remaining workouts as I train for my half. I'm going to cut out the sugary drinks, opting for water and electrolyte pills instead. But I have a fuel routine with Shot Bloks that has served me perfectly well through two Century rides and the first two months of my half marathon training. I'm going to continue with that.

I asked my counselor (as I go to Medi Weightloss) about it this past week. As I put it to her: "I burn 400 calories an hour - about 100 per mile - during my walks. My body is used to consuming 100 calories of carbs each hour. So, if I consume 100 calories of carbs, but burn 400 calories, will that throw me out of ketosis?"

Her response was, "It's pretty clear to me you know your body's needs when you're working out. I can't tell you for sure, but do what's working for you and what you need to do to keep going for a long period of time."

So I'm giving it a whirl tomorrow and will be checking to see if it throws me out of ketosis for a few days after. I'll report back.
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  #8   ^
Old Fri, Oct-01-10, 20:08
jschwab jschwab is offline
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' I don't know from pace so I thought OP's daily runs were high intensity.'

It doesn't have to do with pace Everybody has a different speed which is not really in itself a measure of intensity - for one person, 8 minute miles could be the fastest they could run and for another it could be glacially slow, even if they are running with the same effort. To run 6-7 miles a day, I would guess that 8 minute miles is an easy pace for the OP - otherwise, they would quickly burn out completely. Their hard pace is probably much much speedier. 8 minute miles are awesome though - I wish I had that speed!

Re: Rollerblading. Rollerblading is great - it's also great crosstraining for running I like ice skating for that reason. Sometimes there are rollerblading groups - I think there is a roller derby player here on the forum who might have training tips.

Last edited by jschwab : Fri, Oct-01-10 at 20:18.
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  #9   ^
Old Fri, Oct-01-10, 20:15
jschwab jschwab is offline
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Plan: Atkins72/Paleo/NoGrain/IF
Stats: 285/220/200 Female 5 feet 5.5 inches
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southpaw
I tend to agree with jschwab. I'm walking my first half marathon in about 4 weeks. I tried going low/no carb for my 9 mile walk last week, and not only bonked, but got dehydrated as well.

Tomorrow I have a 12 mile walk, and I've decided that I'm going to apply sort of the "carb cycling" principle to my remaining workouts as I train for my half. I'm going to cut out the sugary drinks, opting for water and electrolyte pills instead. But I have a fuel routine with Shot Bloks that has served me perfectly well through two Century rides and the first two months of my half marathon training. I'm going to continue with that.

I asked my counselor (as I go to Medi Weightloss) about it this past week. As I put it to her: "I burn 400 calories an hour - about 100 per mile - during my walks. My body is used to consuming 100 calories of carbs each hour. So, if I consume 100 calories of carbs, but burn 400 calories, will that throw me out of ketosis?"

Her response was, "It's pretty clear to me you know your body's needs when you're working out. I can't tell you for sure, but do what's working for you and what you need to do to keep going for a long period of time."

So I'm giving it a whirl tomorrow and will be checking to see if it throws me out of ketosis for a few days after. I'll report back.


I have gotten more accustomed to getting my carbs from my meals and less from cycling in the sports beans for hard workouts. But I used to do like you do, and it worked out pretty well - it was certainly critical to performance and also electrolyte absorption. For a race, I will take Gatorade or beans for sure. I switched to eating more carbs (mostly potatoes) but practicing intermittent fasting because I could not lose weight while I trained. If you continue to lose the weight you want, the carbs won't hurt.

Atkins was very clear that endurance athletes may require alot more carbs than people who do not engage in those activities.

Which half marathon are you doing? I will be running the Philly Half in November.
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  #10   ^
Old Sat, Oct-02-10, 13:34
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southpaw southpaw is offline
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Hey jschwab thanks for checking in with some more information. Since you're the expert here, do you mind if I ask your advice?

I carbed up a little this morning prior to my workout, but my pace was much slower today than it has been in the past - by just over a min/mile. The legs just weren't turning over like they did prior going LC. My theory is that lack of glycogen from being LC is what caused that.

So I guess my question is, when you switched to LC, did you lose speed at first, and then regain it? I felt okay today, and fueled like clockwork during the walk, but my pace was shot!

BTW, I'm doing the Myrtle Beach Mini marathon, 3rd weekend in October. I know you'll rock the half! I'm so biomechanically screwed up that I'm hoping if I lose all this weight I'll be able to try running too, but my knees and ankles tend to blow up if I try with any meat on my bones. As it is right now, walking these distances is giving me a terrible case of achilles tendonitis.
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  #11   ^
Old Sat, Oct-02-10, 18:10
jschwab jschwab is offline
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Plan: Atkins72/Paleo/NoGrain/IF
Stats: 285/220/200 Female 5 feet 5.5 inches
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Progress: 76%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southpaw
Hey jschwab thanks for checking in with some more information. Since you're the expert here, do you mind if I ask your advice?

I carbed up a little this morning prior to my workout, but my pace was much slower today than it has been in the past - by just over a min/mile. The legs just weren't turning over like they did prior going LC. My theory is that lack of glycogen from being LC is what caused that.

So I guess my question is, when you switched to LC, did you lose speed at first, and then regain it? I felt okay today, and fueled like clockwork during the walk, but my pace was shot!

BTW, I'm doing the Myrtle Beach Mini marathon, 3rd weekend in October. I know you'll rock the half! I'm so biomechanically screwed up that I'm hoping if I lose all this weight I'll be able to try running too, but my knees and ankles tend to blow up if I try with any meat on my bones. As it is right now, walking these distances is giving me a terrible case of achilles tendonitis.


I don't know if I'm an expert LOL! It took me forever to figure out how not to blow up when training from the extra carbs! I lost weight before I started running. I lost about 40 pounds first. After I started I never found a way to train and lose (I always gained). I would only lose if I took off from running for a few months. I broke through that with intermittent fasting instead of cycling in carbs for each workout. I think you might consider carbing up at least an hour before your workout . I would probably try carbing up even the day a workout before to see if it helps. I eat my carbs at noon and find my runs after 7 at night I am totally fine performance-wise (I have gotten used to this schedule). I have had injuries but never any ones that seemed related to weight, fortunately. Try to stretch your soleus muscle for the achille tendonitis (google it). You might have tight calves. I can't wait for my half. What time are you going for at Myrtle Beach?
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  #12   ^
Old Sun, Oct-03-10, 11:41
JustSmurfy JustSmurfy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jschwab
Re: Rollerblading. Rollerblading is great - it's also great crosstraining for running I like ice skating for that reason. Sometimes there are rollerblading groups - I think there is a roller derby player here on the forum who might have training tips.


It's going to sound a bit odd, but the best crosstraining I've found for roller derby has been swimming. Roller Derby (like running) can be demanding on the body and particularly on the joints, and swimming a couple times per week has done wonders for keeping my knees pain free. Also, I've had a sharp reduction in injuries and "aches and pains" since I started swimming. Well, I actually don't swim well, mostly I do laps with my paddle board and some doggy paddling.

Skating is a great workout for your whole body, but especially your calves, hamstrings, and glutes. If you do decide to skate I'd suggest:
1) Try it out at your local rink for fun - look for an Adult skate and enjoy the cheesy music and laser lights.
2) If you like it, get your own skates. A zillion times more comfortable than those rentals. Consider a speed-skate. The Riedell R3s are a great speed (quad) skate you can get for 99 bucks including wheels. If you get quad skates, get one that doesn't have the high-top. Those are for artistic skaters, not for cardio.
3) Get some basic protection. I'd never skate without my knee pads and wrist guards. It's easy to snap your wrist bones if you fall back, and the wrist guards prevent that. If you are feeling spendy, a pair of shorts with a tailbone protector is an awesome thing.
4) If you want to skate for fitness and endurance, go on Youtube and look at the videos on how speed skaters or derby skaters move. The way most of us were taught to skate as kids isn't very good for fitness. You should be pushing out hard with each stride and moving from one foot to the other rather than balancing on both.

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  #13   ^
Old Sun, Oct-03-10, 12:58
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Seejay Seejay is offline
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The Portland area has lessons for roller derby skating, and a wonderful learning community it seems like. However I only went once. I didn't feel safe even with padding. Not to stay upright, but in case things went sideways, I could tell the agility and strength needed to correct stumbles or whatever if things went wrong, and I don't have it. I did used to skate a lot so I know what it's like and don't want to do it at this size. My choice, I know, other people and other bodies might not have that gut feeling of "don't go there".

Also the instructor was so cool she showed how to get up from a fall without putting hands on the floor (required if you want to scrimmage). Well that would be a one-legged 2.5x bodyweight squat for me and I'm not interested. So I will go when I've lost some more.

It was a blast however.
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  #14   ^
Old Wed, Jan-19-11, 16:27
runnerbabe runnerbabe is offline
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My general thing seems to be this: anything intense like a run or spin class, that is extremely high intensity and demands a lot from the body BUT LASTS ABOUT AN HOUR, give or take, does NOT need any special carb attention from me. I hydrate before, MAYBE eat a piece of string cheese and a small handful or berries if I'm reeeeally hungry. I DO make a point of eating a small protein meal within 1/2 hour after exertion, that is important or my sugars drop and I get ravenous!

But once I get into 8 or more miles of running, I need more. I need more carbs before or I'll hit a wall (learned that one the hard way. the really really hard way). A deli flat with peanut butter and some berries, a small apple and a slice of cheese, something like that. Water and I'm working on sugar-free supplements - little packets of peanut butter? And a small recovery meal.

If I ate that many carbs I'd be huge. I am carb sensitive and have a low tolerance for them, even though I am so active!
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