Active Low-Carber Forums
Atkins diet and low carb discussion provided free for information only, not as medical advice.
Home Plans Tips Recipes Tools Stories Studies Products
Active Low-Carber Forums
A sugar-free zone


Welcome to the Active Low-Carber Forums.
Support for Atkins diet, Protein Power, Neanderthin (Paleo Diet), CAD/CALP, Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution and any other healthy low-carb diet or plan, all are welcome in our lowcarb community. Forget starvation and fad diets -- join the healthy eating crowd! You may register by clicking here, it's free!

Go Back   Active Low-Carber Forums > Main Low-Carb Diets Forums & Support > Low Carb Health & Technical Forums > Thyroid Disease
User Name
Password
FAQ Members Calendar Mark Forums Read Search Gallery My P.L.A.N. Survey


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   ^
Old Fri, Jun-03-11, 02:45
gregory b gregory b is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 89
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 146/134/134 Male 165cm
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Thailand
Default Suspect T3 resistance: no RT3 test available: could I try low dose R3?

I was inspired by Lisa's (awriter) account of how she lowered lipids after diagnosing herself as T3 resistant and treating herself with T3 supplement.

http://forum.lowcarber.org/archive/...p/t-404752.html

I am having runaway LDL and triglycerides that are going up despite dropping to 30g total carb per day. At first I considered fatty liver might be responsible for the triglyceride increase. But liver enzymes are low and ultrasound shows no enlargement.

I'm trying to test for thyroid and adrenal issues. I did basic thryroid tests:

TSH: 1.48
Free T4: 1.7
Free T3: 2.69.

Unfortunately, living in Thailand, I can't get an RT3 test. However, I have read that T4 above 1.7 suggests a high level of RT3. And R3 of 2.69 is on the low side, which tends to support my suspicion.

I did a full iron panel. But the 24 hour saliva test for adrenals is not available here. I've resorted to keeping temperature records, following Dr Rind's website: http://www.drrind.com/therapies/met...mperature-graph. The results are rather low, but stable: 97.9 to 98.4, suggesting adrenals are OK, but thyroid is not functioning optimally. I've only done two days. I need to confirm this range over a few more days.

If the "low but stable" result is confirmed and if iron is sufficient, could I try a low dose of T3 and see whether it is tolerated? I have read that the only side effects are heart palpitations and anxiety. Are there any others?
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2   ^
Old Sat, Jun-04-11, 08:28
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,842
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
Default

Well, the effects of T3 intolerance is the same as hyperthyroid symptoms, so you could google that. It is the T4 that gets turned into RT3. I know if folks are supplementing T4 meds they switch to T3 to get rid of the RT3. I don't know about someone with a functioning thyroid that is presumably pumping out T4 already. Maybe the additional T3 will overwhelm the RT3 as they compete for receptors? I have no idea!

Could you post the ranges with your lab results? I don't have them memorized. I suppose it couldn't hurt to try a low dose of T3. I'm guessing it isn't difficult to come by in Thailand!

The side-effects of excess T3 are extremely unpleasant so there's little chance you'll voluntarily take too much.
Reply With Quote
  #3   ^
Old Sun, Jun-05-11, 00:21
gregory b gregory b is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 89
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 146/134/134 Male 165cm
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Thailand
Default

Ranges with lab results. (My results in parentheses)

TSH: 0.465 - 4.68 (1.48)
FT4: 0.78 - 2.19 (1.70)
FT3: 2.77 - 5.27 (2.69)

Iron panel results just arrived. All are normal except ferritin, which Val writes could be a result of hypothyroid. She claims hers were falsely elevated at 159. Looks similar.

Serum Iron 104.00 range: 70-180 ug/dl
TIBC 288.40 range: 150-450 ug/dl
UIBC 184.40 range: 80-270 ug/dl
Transferrin sat 0.36 range: 24- 45%
Ferritin 167.70 range: 22-322 ng/ml

I'm still hesitating: in the absence of an RT3 test, it's only guesswork that the meds would work on my lipids. Unlike others who have commented on RT3 (including Lisa) I am losing weight. I am also bounding with energy and feel fine - unlike most who report hypothyroid symptoms. So I'm taking things slowly.

Last edited by gregory b : Mon, Jun-06-11 at 00:00. Reason: clarification
Reply With Quote
  #4   ^
Old Sun, Jun-05-11, 09:14
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,842
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
Default

Greg, I'd delete that last paragraph. I don't think posting about that is allowed in the forums.

Yeah, I think if you feel pretty energetic and the weight is coming off, maybe you're all right?
Reply With Quote
  #5   ^
Old Mon, Jun-06-11, 00:08
gregory b gregory b is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 89
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 146/134/134 Male 165cm
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Thailand
Default

Last paragraph amended. I think I follow. But I better review posting rules. Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #6   ^
Old Wed, Jun-08-11, 12:44
Scarlet's Avatar
Scarlet Scarlet is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,452
 
Plan: Gluten free wholefoods
Stats: 173/145/147 Female 5"4.5 inches
BF:37/?/25
Progress: 108%
Default

Yes, please be very careful with that. I was hyper once and endured severe anxiety (like I have never felt in my entire life), extreme paranoia, palpitations, tachycardia and WILD blood sugar swings (from super low to super high). It's really awful and I wouldn't want anyone to go through it.

If I were you, I'd write to Genova and ask if they take International orders. Personally, I get my bloods shipped to another country, as there are no RT3 tests available in my country either.
Reply With Quote
  #7   ^
Old Thu, Jun-09-11, 04:23
gregory b gregory b is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 89
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 146/134/134 Male 165cm
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Thailand
Default

Scarlet, thanks for your comment.

I spoke to a well-known thryoid consultant in the US. She looked at my TSH, T4 and Free T3 numbers and concluded that my condition required T3 treatment. She said that my iron panel was "perfect" and that my adrenals were not yet indicative of any problem. But that if I didn't treat the RT3 the adrenals would deteriorate. She said I should have no problem tolerating the T3 supplement. Of course, I appreciate there is a risk. But there are risks in not taking the treatment: deteriorating adrenals and heart health. (My LDL shot up from 212 to 250 last week!)

Thanks for the reference to Genova. I've checked their partner lab in Australia and they do an rT3 test. I've asked them whether they will accept blood by courier. But even testing would not indicate that I could tolerate the T3 supplement, which, if I am correct, is your concern.

Can you elaborate on your experience? Did you suffer the anxiety attack initially or after increasing the dose? Was there any contributory stress involved or was it merely in response to the dosage? How did you resolve the issue?
Reply With Quote
  #8   ^
Old Thu, Jun-16-11, 13:35
Scarlet's Avatar
Scarlet Scarlet is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,452
 
Plan: Gluten free wholefoods
Stats: 173/145/147 Female 5"4.5 inches
BF:37/?/25
Progress: 108%
Default

I was fine on T3 only until I got up to 56.5mcg. I then became EXTREMELY paranoid, anxious and insomniac. I also had a racing and pounding heart. Things were so bad that I had to go off it and re-start over on NTH. I was also low on iron and low iron can cause hyper like symptoms. I WILL be going on it again as I also suspect T3 resistance, but I will be supping iron and probably not going above 70mcg.
Reply With Quote
  #9   ^
Old Fri, Jun-17-11, 04:09
gregory b gregory b is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 89
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 146/134/134 Male 165cm
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Thailand
Default

Thanks for the details. Interesting that the reaction occurred during the course, and not at the outset. Iron seems to be very important. The Yahoo T3 group stresses it.
Reply With Quote
  #10   ^
Old Sat, Jun-25-11, 15:51
nawchem's Avatar
nawchem nawchem is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 8,701
 
Plan: No gluten, CAD
Stats: 196.0/158.5/149.0 Female 62
BF:36/29.0/27.3
Progress: 80%
Default

I had high rT3 and went thru yahoo groups protocol. I now take 112mcg cynomel none of the hyper side effects although I have a heart condition and am super sensitive to hyper symptoms. The good thing is that high T3 symptoms are short lived due to the short half life of T3.

Your temps aren't that good if the 2 listed are your daily averages in a row.
The moderator on yahoo can advise you on your iron levels, Val is really knowledgeable.

Do you have any hypo symptoms?

As I understand, your body will continue to make T4 that converts to rT3 and T3, if those receptors are blocked with rT3 it won't make any difference how much T3 you take until you shut down your thyroid production. Honestly I would be leery of doing this without a drs guidance. It would be interesting to know your thyroid antibody levels too.
Reply With Quote
  #11   ^
Old Sat, Jun-25-11, 15:54
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,842
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
Default

I just started T3 only myself and I've been feeling better. Until today I didn't feel sleepy during the day. That's very unusual for me!
Reply With Quote
  #12   ^
Old Sun, Jun-26-11, 05:36
gregory b gregory b is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 89
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 146/134/134 Male 165cm
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Thailand
Default

Hi Nawchem,

It's reassuring to know that hyper symptoms are short-lived.

No, those aren't my temps over two days. My average daytime temp is 98.3 plus or minus 0.3, occasionally 0.4, averaged over a three week period.

I spoke to Val a couple of weeks ago. She said that my temps show a slight "wobble" but my iron is "perfect" and suggested that I should have no problem doing 12 weeks of T3 after which I should be able to wean myself off it and "be normal". She said that too low carb is a plausible cause for high RT3 and resultant high lipids and says she keeps her carbs at around 60g per day for that reason. (I have increased mine from 30 to about 50 - but I'm finding it difficult for fear of going too high and losing the benefits of keeping my blood sugar down.)

No, I don't have any major hypo symptoms: not cold, a little drowsy in the afternoon but I've stopped taking naps since my blood sugar has come down. My temps are not optimal. But I exercise well and most days I have great energy. And I have been losing weight over the last two months.

Re "shutting down thyroid production": As I understand it taking T3 for six weeks will reduce the production of T4 to very low levels and after 12 weeks... "provided there is enough (T3) to suppress TSH and stop T4 production then clearance will occur."
http://thyroid-rt3.com/howisit1.htm

I haven't read that one has to stop thyroid production before T3 will work.

I have ordered some cynomel. It will take another couple of weeks to arrive. In the meantime I'm doing a saliva test. I'm taking my time with this. Although high lipids are a cause for anxiety they are not life-threatening in the short term. A competing theory is that reducing carbs causes lipids to surge for the first ten weeks to six months and that they will come down by themselves. Dr Eades calls it 'transient hyperlipodemia'. It's possible that my surging lipids will resolve by themselves. On the other hand Val says,

i. I have plenty of T4
ii. I have low T3
iii. There is no reason to have high T4 and low T3 except for the presence of high rT3.
Therefore "you do have an rT3 issue."

Sounds quite plausible.

Last edited by gregory b : Sun, Jun-26-11 at 05:47. Reason: clarification
Reply With Quote
  #13   ^
Old Sun, Jun-26-11, 05:56
gregory b gregory b is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 89
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 146/134/134 Male 165cm
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Thailand
Default

Nancy that's great news. What were you doing before you took T3? Why did you decide to make the change?

I've read of people on the yahoo rT3 group who reported that they stopped feeling drowsy after being on T3.

I stopped feeling drowsy in the afternoon after cutting carbs to 30g per day. No doubt a benefit of reduced insulin. Still a few yawns in the afternoon, so perhaps I'm a bit hypo too.
Reply With Quote
  #14   ^
Old Mon, Jun-27-11, 09:45
nawchem's Avatar
nawchem nawchem is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 8,701
 
Plan: No gluten, CAD
Stats: 196.0/158.5/149.0 Female 62
BF:36/29.0/27.3
Progress: 80%
Default

That's interesting about temporary elevations in cholesterol. I'll wait a while before I get tested!

I did read some research that having carbs under 50 or calories under 1500 causes a rT3 problem. Maybe that's your cause? Its a shame to raise your carbs when you're doing so well, but maybe its time for maintenance levels anyway.

My dr had me on a very slow switch from armour to cytomel, over a year. I never lost any weight or got the benefits until I was on T3 only, I started losing weight right at 6 weeks off of all T4.

I hope this works for you. Keep us posted.
Reply With Quote
  #15   ^
Old Tue, Jun-28-11, 06:19
gregory b gregory b is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 89
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 146/134/134 Male 165cm
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Thailand
Default

I would guess that it would be a minority of people who have rT3 problems under 50 grams of carb per day. I recall Kurt Harris saying the idea was 'hogwash' (interview with Jimmy Moore). I think Dr Eades is less than persuaded by the claim and he has had decades of experience putting people on 30g per day.

I agree that it's a shame to raise the carbs. I'm quite enjoying being on VLC. It feels great.

rT3 may well be the cause of my rapidly rising LDL and triglycerides. And 12 weeks of cytomel might fix it. But I have doubts:

i. will i be able to wean myself off it after 12 weeks or so?

ii. is it worth taking a drug to lower cholesterol and triglycerides when I'm otherwise feeling fine? I know what Kurt Harris would say: http://www.archevore.com/panu-weblo...sis-part-i.html
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:41.


Copyright © 2000-2024 Active Low-Carber Forums @ forum.lowcarber.org
Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.