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  #1   ^
Old Sun, Dec-12-21, 18:26
Dodger's Avatar
Dodger Dodger is online now
Posts: 8,758
 
Plan: Paleoish/Keto
Stats: 225/167/175 Male 71.5 inches
BF:18%
Progress: 116%
Location: Longmont, Colorado
Default Keto Diet May Not Work for Women

I'm sure that Keto works for quite a few women on this website!
https://scitechdaily.com/keto-diet-...t-works-better/
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  #2   ^
Old Mon, Dec-13-21, 07:43
Calianna's Avatar
Calianna Calianna is online now
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Posts: 1,850
 
Plan: Atkins-ish (hypoglycemia)
Stats: 000/000/000 Female 63
BF:
Progress: 50%
Default

The title of the article seems to imply far more than what the article says, because there's nothing in that short article to indicate "what works better" than keto.

I found these two short paragraphs to be laughably stupid though:

Quote:
Keto doesn’t appear to work as well for women, because we metabolize fat differently and have different genes turned on and off in response to fasting,” Sladek said. “But we really do not know why that is nor how it happens — that is what we are hoping to learn.”


First of all, they're equating keto with fasting. You can always do IF with a keto diet, in fact it's probably easier to limit your eating hours if you're eating keto. But that doesn't mean the only way to do keto is in conjunction with IF, or that the only way to do IF is by eating keto.

Of course keto also doesn't work "as well" for women as it does for men - there's no diet out there that works as well for women as it does for men. It's a very common complaint on diet sites - the husband and wife both go on the same diet. After a week or three, the husband has lost twice or 3 times as much as the wife has lost. Even diets that aren't really diets work better for men than women - Decades ago, my DH used to go on the "no ice-cream for 2 weeks" diet and lose a few pounds. If I tried that tactic, the best I could hope for was maintaining.

I can help them cut to the chase on their lack of understanding about why that is - it's the hormones. Women's bodies are geared to hold onto fat to get them through famines while nourishing a baby through pregnancy, and nursing a baby through infancy. The exact hormonal/metabolic pathways that do that? The only reason it would be the least bit important to know that is if you're trying to develop a diet aid that completely short circuits the hormones that allow women to survive and nurture an infant through a famine... so that a woman can go on a "famine" starvation diet and lose quickly.

The next paragraph makes it clear that their intention is only to demonize keto:


Quote:

Whether the diet is effective for any sex, the researchers caution against taking any diet to an extreme. It’s not clear whether all of the fat gets metabolized on a keto or fasting diet, or whether a lot of it just accumulates in the body.


This one is beyond stupid - if the fat doesn't get metabolized, and is instead accumulating in the body, then you'd gain weight instead of losing it. Fat "accumulating in your body" (cells) has the same weight as the fat that you're losing.

But of course if it's not strictly a calories in/calories out diet, it's imperative to come up with some reason that it isn't good for you, no matter how effective it is in actual practice.
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  #3   ^
Old Mon, Dec-13-21, 09:28
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is online now
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Posts: 14,605
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/125/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 136%
Location: USA
Default

What a load! But since it tells readers they can just keep on doing what they are doing, I'm sure few will notice that glaring discrepancy.
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  #4   ^
Old Mon, Dec-13-21, 10:10
bkloots's Avatar
bkloots bkloots is offline
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Posts: 10,147
 
Plan: LC--Atkins
Stats: 195/162/150 Female 62in
BF:
Progress: 73%
Location: Kansas City, MO
Default

Considering the above comments, I wasn't going to read this. But...curiosity prevailed. I especially noted this at the beginning
Quote:
Legions of people swear by it
How could this be if it doesn't help them?

Then again, legions of people pay money to WW, Nutrisystem, etc. and many of them are happy with those options as well.

But what a stupid conclusion: weight control depends on what you eat, how much you eat, and when you eat. Triple DUH! You need a scientific study to figure that out?? Bet they got a terrific grant.

I've just reread Bill Bryson's breezy and sorta fact-filled book The Body. For all the body parts and conditions he covers, the bottom line is usually: We don't really know. That's science in a nutshell. But wait! Science is useful for finding out what we don't know without stopping until we do know.

We DO KNOW that many forms of low-carbohydrate nutrition help reduce fat in tons of human bodies.
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  #5   ^
Old Mon, Dec-13-21, 10:23
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is online now
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Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/125/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 109%
Location: Vermont
Default

Mostly now I try to avoid the media drivel and stick to what I know to be true, having been tested in the crucible of my experience.
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  #6   ^
Old Mon, Dec-13-21, 15:10
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Posts: 25,843
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
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It works with some modifications for me. I have to lower fat and carbs.
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  #7   ^
Old Tue, Dec-14-21, 08:58
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is online now
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/125/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 136%
Location: USA
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It was articles like this one that held me back from trying carnivore. Which turned my health around dramatically.

Wasn't the only thing. But it was one of the biggest things.
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  #8   ^
Old Tue, Dec-14-21, 12:59
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

Carrots probably won't make you fat if all you eat is carrots. Buttery carrots--you might end up eating more butter than you'd eat as just butter--maybe more than if you had just butter and meat. It's funny that palatability/reward food science is fairly well accepted, but nobody acknowledges that you'd eat more apple pie or other pastry than you'd eat plain pie crust, fairly innocuous veggies like mushrooms or green peppers will have people eating more pizza, etc.
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  #9   ^
Old Wed, Dec-15-21, 06:23
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,368
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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To quote Ted Naiman, Avoid the Trifecta…high carbs + fat + energy density. Or teaser….You can eat all those carrots if you don’t add butter or cheese sauce. Don"t Eat for Winter.

Ted's latest interviews have been emphasizing the Satiety per Calorie score. Adding that chart to the P:E ratio is how "keto foods" like pork rinds, which seemed OK on LC are really terrible….especially if you are an older woman, with a history of weight problems…stalled above an ideal weight with low carb even when doing everything "right" per Atkins, Westman, etc.


https://www.satietypercalorie.com/

https://proteinpercent.com/
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  #10   ^
Old Wed, Dec-15-21, 07:37
bkloots's Avatar
bkloots bkloots is offline
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Posts: 10,147
 
Plan: LC--Atkins
Stats: 195/162/150 Female 62in
BF:
Progress: 73%
Location: Kansas City, MO
Default

About those pork rinds...

Yes, they are among the things I gave up quite awhile ago. In fact, I now keep my digital scale front and center on my kitchen counter. If I feel like having a snack of, say, peanuts, I weigh those suckers and remind myself that 30g is not very much. Do I really want them?? Sometimes, yes. I count them as part of a "meal."

Biased by my dieting history, I keep claiming it's "not about calories." But, well, it sort of is. But more complicated, it's about balancing energy intake against volume, emotional satisfaction, personal metabolic status, etc. etc.

I haven't yet read those Naiman articles Jey posted. But "satiety per calorie" seems like what I'm talking about. I'll take peanuts over pork rinds. Steak over carrots.
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  #11   ^
Old Wed, Dec-15-21, 08:42
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,368
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
Default

I recently listened again to the Bett Lucas interviews with Dr. Naiman, and was reminded that all three (plus the one with Marty Kendall) were simply explained, with straight-forward questions. This one in particular had a good discussion why so many women do fail at "keto": https://bettlucas.com/2020/10/19/po...uest-dr-naiman/.
His suggestions to avoid around the problems all worked for me, remove the cheese, cream cheese, heavy cream and replace with non-fat yogurt, whey protein powder, low fat cottage cheese and egg whites. Use lean meats, fish and seafood. He never counts calories, but "it IS all about calories". A serving of pork rinds is half an ounce...who eats that small an amount? 3 oz. is reasonable and that is 500 calories...not a weight loss food.
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  #12   ^
Old Wed, Dec-15-21, 09:00
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Posts: 25,843
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
Default

Counting calories never worked for me. PSMF didn't work all that well for me, but I think it was because it was too low calorie. Maybe the diet has changed over the years.
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  #13   ^
Old Wed, Dec-15-21, 09:21
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 5,283
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/125/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 109%
Location: Vermont
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
I recently listened again to the Bett Lucas interviews with Dr. Naiman, and was reminded that all three (plus the one with Marty Kendall) were simply explained, with straight-forward questions. This one in particular had a good discussion why so many women do fail at "keto": https://bettlucas.com/2020/10/19/po...uest-dr-naiman/.
His suggestions to avoid around the problems all worked for me, remove the cheese, cream cheese, heavy cream and replace with non-fat yogurt, whey protein powder, low fat cottage cheese and egg whites. Use lean meats, fish and seafood. He never counts calories, but "it IS all about calories". A serving of pork rinds is half an ounce...who eats that small an amount? 3 oz. is reasonable and that is 500 calories...not a weight loss food.


As a person who cannot eat either dairy or eggs it is sometimes frustrating to see this kind of advice so often repeated although I realize that for the majority of people it can be helpful. But since I have managed to be successful without eating either dairy or eggs (and no pork rinds either) I want to say that there are ways to be successful without these particular food stuffs. I concentrate on nutrient density and I have decreased the amount of fat in my diet from around 60-70% to around 40% and the amount of protein to over 40%.

Since all my weight came off as a women over the age of 50 (now about to turn 73) for me being a women and being post menopausal has not been a deterrent. Each one of us just has to work with our particular circumstances. These pronouncements about women in general always irritate me because it seems to posit women as somehow problematic and special cases. I have no choice but to work with what I've got and each of us has the same choice. Better to look at the cards we've been dealt as challenges rather than problems.
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  #14   ^
Old Wed, Dec-15-21, 09:38
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,368
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
Default

I've not had problem with dairy or eggs, I was raised on a dairy farm in CT that sold both milk and eggs. Some people can't handle these products, and as you write, keto can still be doable. But there are also many women (and men) in the keto groups where I still hang out who "stall" above goal, eating what may be too many allowed high-fat foods. "Keto"... however that is defined, just doesn't work for them. And they are complaining about it, and moving on.
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  #15   ^
Old Wed, Dec-15-21, 09:54
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 5,283
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/125/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 109%
Location: Vermont
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
I've not had problem with dairy or eggs, I was raised on a dairy farm in CT that sold both milk and eggs. Some people can't handle these products, and as you write, keto can still be doable. But there are also many women (and men) in the keto groups where I still hang out who "stall" above goal, eating what may be too many allowed high-fat foods. "Keto"... however that is defined, just doesn't work for them. And they are complaining about it, and moving on.


When I decided to change the way I was eating in order to lose weight and improve my health the term "keto" was not in common usage. I called the way I decided to eat low carb, as it was usually referred to in the literature. I added paleo to the way I ate because paleo made sense to me. That idea came from a book called "Neanderthin" by Ray Audette. I think people sometimes get hung up on the rules of a given dietary plan without understanding that the better they understand the thinking behind the "diet" the better able they will be to tweak it for their particular circumstances. Keto seems to mean different things to different people. However it may be defined by someone it is better to treat it as a starting point and not as a religion to be followed without deviation if it is not accomplishing the goal which they have set.

I used to eat eggs and dairy and was especially sad to have to give up my delicious homemade yogurt but I enjoy the feeling of a reliable gut more than I enjoy the taste of either and especially more than I enjoy the symptoms they cause.
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