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  #1   ^
Old Fri, Apr-12-24, 04:09
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,511
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
Default Satiety Index vs Nutrient Density vs Protein

A slightly different Satiety Index from HAVA's, adding World-wide data to the scoring. It gives more weight to Nutrients, calibrated with 620k days of data from people all over the world. BW asked about the calculation of a Satiety Index https://forum.lowcarber.org/showpos...05&postcount=38

This is Marty Kendall's Satiety Index:

https://public.tableau.com/app/prof...tein/allfoods_1

The x-axis shows the new satiety score, and the y-axis shows nutrient density.
The colours are based on the protein (%). A popup with more details will appear if you mouse over the dots. Must use a computer to open a tableau, not much visible with a mobile device.

https://members.optimisingnutrition...m_source=manual (Free membership community on Mighty Networks)

Quote:
For those of you who are interested, the satiety score uses a composite weighted two-way linear regression of:

- protein (%),

- fat(%),

- sugar [component of carbs]

- calcium,

- iron,

- potassium,

- sodium,

- vitamin C,

- riboflavin (B2), and

- energy density.

Foods that hit all the nutrient bliss points get a lower satiety score because they can be eaten all day (e.g., the McDonald's and Pizza Hut menus shown on the left-hand side of the chart).

Foods that provide more than the minimum nutrient concentration drive sensory-specific satiety sooner, so we eat less of them.

Last edited by JEY100 : Fri, Apr-12-24 at 04:18.
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  #2   ^
Old Fri, Apr-12-24, 07:50
Calianna's Avatar
Calianna Calianna is online now
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Posts: 1,977
 
Plan: Atkins-ish (hypoglycemia)
Stats: 000/000/000 Female 63
BF:
Progress: 50%
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I started looking at the chart - and immediately started looking for the foods that personally provide the most satiety for ME.

They were mostly pretty low on the satiety scale.

Then I looked for some foods that I can easily overeat (practically binge level) because they don't provide any real satiety for me personally - and found some of those higher on the satiety scale.


The best I could figure out just based on the specific foods I looked at, that his scale doesn't put anywhere near as much emphasis on the satiety aspect of a higher fat content, and the "nutrient bliss" problem from some moderate to low-ish carbohydrate foods (that he did not identify as foods you could eat all day long: as my digestive system does.

I realize he's going for a much lower fat content (to keep calories lower) than my system seems to need to feel satiated. I didn't see any reference to serving sizes, which seemed odd to me (although admittedly I need to look at his chart in more detail, because I've probably missed something)
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  #3   ^
Old Fri, Apr-12-24, 08:56
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cotonpal cotonpal is online now
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Posts: 5,356
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/125/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 109%
Location: Vermont
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I have finally decided that for me I will follow the "if it’s not broken don’t fix it” way of eating. I will continue to use what has worked for me, low carb (although slightly higher carb than very low carb which I used to follow), portion control and timing. As long as I prioritize protein to 30% or higher, pay attention to micronutrients, and don’t let the occasional craving control me, then it works. DDF doesn’t work for me because my body doesn’t seem to have read the rule book and the timing of my meals is too haphazard for me as I wait, often in vain, for my bg to fall to my trigger. I also find myself not wanting another list of acceptable and less acceptable foods. Staying within a low carb paleo framework as I define it has served me well so why change it? I appreciate all Marty Kendall has done but I find myself happy with how I am eating and no longer really interested in tweaking it any more. Marty taught me about prioritizing protein. That’s worked for me. I don’t seem to need or want to follow him down the path of low fat/satiety. I am glad it helps others but I have finally decided to stop chasing better. How I am doing things is good enough. It’s been over 20 years sine I weighed anything close to 245 lbs so I must be doing something right.
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  #4   ^
Old Fri, Apr-12-24, 09:55
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,511
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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The Satiety Score is Per Calorie, like Nutrient Density, same as Hava’s Satiety Score. It does not matter what type of diet you prefer, Low Carb or Vegetarian. It also works with any goal, Lose Weight, or Regain Health. If you DO want to lose weight, you would favor a Higher Satiety Score so you will naturally eat less while getting the nutrients that provide satiety. 50-70 usually works for sustainable weight loss.

You may love a BP Coffee because it keeps you satiated until noon. That’s fine, but often it contains 350 cal of CO, butter, cream, and almost no protein or nutrients to provide satiety that prevents overeating later. https://optimisingnutrition.com/satiety-per-calorie/

I still keep a rein on SPC to maintain my weight loss, but that is much easier when I am satiated. I have a list of foods that work for me, both calorie and nutrition wise. But big data lists like this help others who are not at goal weight to find small tweaks to make their menus more satiating.
What is a good satiety score.? https://www.hava.co/satiety/what-is...d-satiety-score

Quote:
The refined satiety algorithm is calibrated with 620k days of data from people all over the world. It empowers us to cut through the named diets and noise in the nutrition space.

Last edited by JEY100 : Sat, Apr-13-24 at 03:13.
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  #5   ^
Old Mon, Apr-15-24, 02:40
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,511
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Marty Kendall added an article (on Twitter and the ON community) on "How to Use the Interactive Satiety/Nutrient Density/Protein Food Chart" It explains how the Nutrient Density Score and Satiety Score work and more tips how to use it for your goals, especially the Sliders.
Quote:
Sliders…allow you to filter and find foods that suit your goals.

Satiety
Maybe you’re interested in losing weight and want a higher satiety but not too high. You can use the satiety slider to zoom in on foods that will increase your satiety from where you are now without showing very high satiety foods that are a bit extreme for your tastes.

Nutrient density
You can also exclude foods that will provide minimal nutrients while excluding the nutrient-dense foods you’re not interested in (yet).

Protein (%)
You can also do the same thing with protein % to find the protein level that aligns with your goals.

Carbs (g/serve)
If you’re concerned about your blood glucose or prefer a low-carb diet, you can dial down the carbs slider to identify foods that contain fewer carbohydrates per serving.

Categories and Food Groups
Finally, you can dive deeper using the category and food group filters.

Maybe you’re a carnivore and want to find more satiating and nutritious options. You can check out the meat category.

Similarly, if you’re interested in a plant-based diet, you can see how vegetables and fruits compare in terms of nutrient density and satiety
https://members.optimisingnutrition...m_source=manual There are thousands of foods and recipes, but starting where you are now, filtering the results, winnows it down to food you love and allow you to reach your goals. In the courses, one outcome is 30/30…30 foods, 30 meals that you enjoy and bring you to goal. Though it’s nice to have thousands of recipes, most people eat the same 30 or so foods. I think I have even less

Last edited by JEY100 : Mon, Apr-15-24 at 05:58.
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  #6   ^
Old Mon, Apr-15-24, 10:52
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WereBear WereBear is online now
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Posts: 14,781
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/130/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 129%
Location: USA
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Gosh, I aspire to 30🤣
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  #7   ^
Old Tue, Apr-16-24, 02:35
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WereBear WereBear is online now
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/130/150 Female 67
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Progress: 129%
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Bulletproof coffee works for ME. Because I'm a fat burner. JEY is right to caution about it in general, if it leads to actually starving. Since I read comments on health blogs where people complain that they drink the "bulletproof coffee" (and with lots of sugar I AM SURE) so of course they were so hungry they blew up their diet.

They will be hungry until they reach ketosis. My version is decaf, heavy cream, coconut oil, and if it's my caramel flavor I put a few raspberries in the French press. Cinnamon gets some blueberries in the press. Yes, it's flavored coffee! But I'm so sensitive to flavors now I can tell if they are using extracts, or not, and my local roaster does it custom. I add fruit juice instead of artificial, and it's heavenly stuff. Also, vitamin C. (Without grains I do well with Bs and the C. Carbs burn up vitamins!)

The hours of energy I get from this breakfast means I eat a protein heavy lunch. And then, a lot of the time, I'm finished for the day, with a nice eating window.

But if I am hungry, it's more protein, but also carbs (minimal) and fat (to satiety.) Because I'm burning it for my fuel.

I'm thinking if you aren't a fat burner, bulletproof coffee won't work. I drink decaf so the energy isn't from the caffeine, either. People keep looking for "tricks" when some of it can be very simple.

But if they are hooked on carbs, they are going to need every bit of help on offer to get off them.
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  #8   ^
Old Tue, Apr-16-24, 03:19
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,511
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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WearBear …we know you are fat-burner for a good reason, and stick to a therapeutic level consistently, everyday, no "cheats".

There is an interesting discussion on Twitter..long quote to follow but worth it.

Quote:
What's your experience with eating 'fat to satiety'?

I was surprised at how much the below passage from MichaelMossC's excellent book Salt, Sugar, Fat aligns with this chart from our #satiety analysis of 1M+ days of data from free-living humans.


Quote:
Drewnowski started asking questions about fat in 1982. He had a degree in biochemistry from Oxford, and he was hunting for something to focus on as a doctoral student in mathematical psychology at the prestigious Rockefeller University in New York City. The field of nutrition, in which he was interested, was a close-knit world where everyone kept tabs on each other’s work.

He knew that his peers had already trammelled the ground on sugar: He followed Howard Moskowitz's progress in pinpointing the bliss point for sweet taste, read the scientific papers that Szczesniak at General Foods had written on the texture of fat, and saw the rating system she devised that many food scientists used.

In fat, however, he saw an area of research that remained largely uncharted. No one had yet tried to measure with any precision just how alluring it really was. To the contrary, he noticed that scientists who were studying food cravings were making a mistake that could be obscuring the power of fat. They wrongly identified things like candy bars as sugary foods when, in fact, they were also loaded with fat. “I realised that most of the ‘sugary foods’ in our diets were not just pure sugar,” he told me. “They were really linked up with fat.”

Drewnowski devised an experiment. Sixteen undergraduates, eleven women and five men, were given twenty different milk, cream, and sugar mixtures. He then asked them how much they liked each combination; he used his math skills and an early-model computer to sort out their answers.

Two significant findings emerged from the data. Drewnowski knew about the bliss point for sugar and how our liking for sugary concentrations has only gone so far; after a point—known as the breakpoint—adding more sugar only lessens the appeal.

“But there was no bliss point, or break point, for fat,” Drewnowski told me. The sixteen people in his experiment never once cried uncle in working their way through the increasingly fatty mixtures. Fat, no
matter how rich the food was, was so pleasing to their brains that they never gave the signal to stop eating. Their bodies wanted more and more fat.

“The more fat there was, the better,” he said. “If there was a break point, it was somewhere beyond heavy cream.”

The second finding concerned the relationship the fat had with sugar. He found that the heaviest cream tasted even better to his subjects when he added a little sugar. Something about this combination created a powerful interplay. They boosted one another to levels of allure that neither could reach alone.

Given the vast numbers of grocery shelves loaded with sugar and fat products, Drewnowski assumes that the processed food industry was already aware of this synergy, if only in broad, practical terms. Still,
being inquisitive, he had yet more questions to ask and answer.

Was the brain being the body’s servant in extreme gluttony, seeing fat as the best way to store energy for emergencies down the road? Or was there something else going on between the sugar and fat? A few years later, Drewnowski had fifty college students taste and rate fifteen different formulations of cake frosting in which the sugar and fat content was varied. The tasters could taste and quantify the sugar content of each sample quite accurately, but not the fat content; the participants in his study found it difficult to detect its presence with any precision.

"On top of that, when sugar was added to the fattier formulations, the students mistakenly thought the fat had been reduced. In effect, the fat had gone into hiding. This meant the food manufacturers could use fat as an allure in their products without worrying about a backlash from people’s brains, which they do with abandon.

Many soups, cookies, potato chips, cakes, pies, and frozen meals deliver half or more of their calories through fat, and yet consumers won’t identify these as fatty foods, which is great for sales. For some extra insurance on this, all the manufacturers have to do is add a little sugar.

Drewnowski published his study, “Invisible Fats,” in 1990, and it showed that fat was a double-edged sword when wielded by the processed food industry. In certain circumstances and with certain foods, manufacturers might be able to reduce the fat content without causing a significant drop in the product’s allure. (Adding more sugar might be needed to maintain the allure depending on the product.)

On the other hand, these same manufacturers could crank up the fat content as high as they wanted, and unless people studied the nutrition label carefully, the
fat would get eaten in bliss without setting off any alarms in the body’s system that help regulate our weight by telling us we are eating too much.

“A dish or a drink could be very high in fat, and people wouldn’t be aware of it,” Drewnowski said. “So it can cut both ways. Good if you’re reducing fat, and not so good if the diet is already heavy in fat and people aren’t aware of it. Fat is trickier than sugar. My point, back when I did my studies, was that in these mixtures of sugar and fat, you find that most of the calories come from fat in so many products. I had this disagreement years ago with researchers working on the hypothesis that obesity is caused by carbohydrates, which is what sugar is.

They were using Snickers bars and chocolate M&Ms and thinking, ‘A-ha, sweet foods, carbohydrates.’ And my point was, yes, they are sweet, and there is sugar in them. But they are not carbohydrate foods —60 to 70 to 80 per cent of their calories came from fat. The fat was invisible, even to the investigators themselves.”


So, what's your experience? On a calorie-for-calorie basis, is fat the most or least satiating macronutrient?
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  #9   ^
Old Tue, Apr-16-24, 03:39
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,511
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Michael Moss's reply
Quote:
Adam Drewnowski’s work on the combo of sugar and fat is genius. And so too is Dana Small at McGill, who observed how that combo — a feature of highly processed foods— excites a part of the brain where habit forms.


Even if you avoid sugar by buying keto junk food, you still have that genius fat and carb combo. Fat bombs, Keto bars, Halo and Rebel ice cream, all designed to hit your bliss point so you will eating more calories of everything, and have more cravings for sweet and fat combos.

My experience, definitely Protein is the most satiating. Whole food carbs next, foods like carrots and the carbs in NF dairy. Though there is a a satiety response to calcium with that (sometimes I wonder if I am still making up for micronutrient deficiencies). I can eliminate added fats with no effect on satiety or trigger cravings.

Last edited by JEY100 : Tue, Apr-16-24 at 06:11.
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  #10   ^
Old Tue, Apr-16-24, 08:56
Calianna's Avatar
Calianna Calianna is online now
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Posts: 1,977
 
Plan: Atkins-ish (hypoglycemia)
Stats: 000/000/000 Female 63
BF:
Progress: 50%
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Aside from not drinking coffee to begin with (love how it smells, hate the taste), the lack of a significant amount of protein in bullet-proof coffee - to me that would mean no satiation.

I need that combo of a significant amount of protein along with enough fat to achieve satiation. If it's just protein, I'll still be hungry. Just fat alone doesn't do anything for me either.

The fat in a satiating meal provides more calories - after all a gram of fat has more than twice the calories of a gram of protein. So even a plain egg has almost twice as many calories from fat as the number of protein calories.


******
This part was interesting:

Quote:
Drewnowski had fifty college students taste and rate fifteen different formulations of cake frosting in which the sugar and fat content was varied. The tasters could taste and quantify the sugar content of each sample quite accurately, but not the fat content; the participants in his study found it difficult to detect its presence with any precision.

"On top of that, when sugar was added to the fattier formulations, the students mistakenly thought the fat had been reduced. In effect, the fat had gone into hiding.


This explains why my naturally skinny friend always declared a lot of sweet stuff to be too sweet. She also couldn't stand dietary fat - or at least thought she hated the taste and texture of dietary fat.

There's one grocery store in the area that their in-store bakery uses a frosting that's not as sweet, so she liked cakes from that bakery much better than any others - I tried to explain to her that since frosting only has 2 main ingredients (fat and sugar), then if it wasn't as sweet, that just meant it had a higher percentage of fat. She didn't recognize the frosting as the fatty stuff she hated - just said it was good because it wasn't as sweet. (and stuck to her guns about that the rest of her life)

Same with Cinnabon rolls - she hated the frosting - too sweet for her, but she loved the cinnamon, which I'm sure she wasn't aware was a mixture that mostly consisted of a lot of sugar and fat, with only a bit of cinnamon to provide what she perceived as the primary flavor.
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  #11   ^
Old Tue, Apr-16-24, 10:39
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GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Posts: 4,071
 
Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cotonpal
I have finally decided that for me I will follow the "if it’s not broken don’t fix it” way of eating. I will continue to use what has worked for me, low carb (although slightly higher carb than very low carb which I used to follow), portion control and timing. As long as I prioritize protein to 30% or higher, pay attention to micronutrients, and don’t let the occasional craving control me, then it works. DDF doesn’t work for me because my body doesn’t seem to have read the rule book and the timing of my meals is too haphazard for me as I wait, often in vain, for my bg to fall to my trigger. I also find myself not wanting another list of acceptable and less acceptable foods. Staying within a low carb paleo framework as I define it has served me well so why change it? I appreciate all Marty Kendall has done but I find myself happy with how I am eating and no longer really interested in tweaking it any more. Marty taught me about prioritizing protein. That’s worked for me. I don’t seem to need or want to follow him down the path of low fat/satiety. I am glad it helps others but I have finally decided to stop chasing better. How I am doing things is good enough. It’s been over 20 years sine I weighed anything close to 245 lbs so I must be doing something right.

Amen. Right there as well. I still want to see the Nutrient Bliss algorithm, as we are embarking on an AI world that will inform us about everything, and diet won't be ignored. I also love the phrase, very attractive marketing-wise. One must be very careful when relying on others' (including human-developed SW Programs'???) "intelligence."

Me? I'll continue to stick with simple whole foods with emphasis on protein. My N=1 approach has been my best, most dependable strategy so far.
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  #12   ^
Old Thu, Apr-18-24, 03:41
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,511
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Update of 1700 Recipes - Satiety vs Nutrient Density vs Protein, has been posted on an additional public tableau.

Article in the free ON community includes link to it and how to find recipes that align with your goals. https://members.optimisingnutrition...m_source=manual

And importantly how to Search a database of 1700 recipes and find what you want, including the full nutrient profile in Cronometer.

** WearBear, there is even a search filter for the Oxalate:Calcium Ratio.
Quote:
Calcium:Oxalate Ratio
Finally, many people are conscious of the potential issues with foods high in oxalates.

Adequate calcium is critical to inhibit the absorption of oxalates and aid in their clearance from the body.

Higher nutrient density recipes generally have plenty of calcium, but if your doctor has diagnosed you with high oxalates based on testing, you can move the calcium oxalate slider up to 1.3 to ensure you get greater than the recommended 4:3 calcium oxalate ratio.

If any of this detail confuses you, don't stress. The last thing we want you to be is overwhelmed. Focus on the satiety and nutrient density, and you'll be OK.

A new Macronutrient Masterclass starts this Saturday, April 20th using these powerful optimised food lists and recipes. Over 4 weeks, you work to refine the foods that give you the satiety and nutrients to progressively meet your goals. https://optimisingnutrition.com/macros-masterclass/

Good discussion of Nutrient Bliss Points in the HAVA interview here: https://forum.lowcarber.org/showpos...05&postcount=38
Though Protein is the most powerful along with the reduction of energy, the nutrient bliss point after that (for me!) is Calcium. On Keto, I was deficient in calcium if limiting dairy to 2T cream and very limited cheese, near the Bliss point. as a senior women need to reach 1200 mg. and with the ON program even more. https://optimisingnutrition.com/cal...ds-and-recipes/

Another good interview on nutrients https://podcast.mikkiwilliden.com/182

Last edited by JEY100 : Thu, Apr-18-24 at 08:31.
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