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  #1   ^
Old Mon, Mar-25-19, 04:10
Demi's Avatar
Demi Demi is offline
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Default Neandertals confirmed as high-trophic level carnivores

Quote:
Exceptionally high δ15N values in collagen single amino acids confirm Neandertals as high-trophic level carnivores

Klervia Jaouen, Michael P. Richards, Adeline Le Cabec, Frido Welker, William Rendu, Jean-Jacques Hublin, Marie Soressi, and Sahra Talamo

PNAS March 12, 2019 116 (11) 4928-4933

Significance

Identifying past hominin diets is a key to understanding adaptation and biological evolution. Bone collagen isotope studies have added much to the discussion of Neandertal subsistence strategies, providing direct measures of diet. Neandertals consistently show very elevated nitrogen isotope values. These values have been seen as the signature of a top-level carnivore diet, but this interpretation was recently challenged by a number of additional theories. We here apply compound-specific isotope analysis of carbon and nitrogen in bone collagen single amino acids of two Neandertals. These Neandertals had the highest nitrogen isotope ratios of bulk collagen measured so far, and our study confirms that these values can be most parsimoniously explained by a carnivorous diet.

Abstract

Isotope and archeological analyses of Paleolithic food webs have suggested that Neandertal subsistence relied mainly on the consumption of large herbivores. This conclusion was primarily based on elevated nitrogen isotope ratios in Neandertal bone collagen and has been significantly debated. This discussion relies on the observation that similar high nitrogen isotopes values could also be the result of the consumption of mammoths, young animals, putrid meat, cooked food, freshwater fish, carnivores, or mushrooms. Recently, compound-specific C and N isotope analyses of bone collagen amino acids have been demonstrated to add significantly more information about trophic levels and aquatic food consumption. We undertook single amino acid C and N isotope analysis on two Neandertals, which were characterized by exceptionally high N isotope ratios in their bulk bone or tooth collagen. We report here both C and N isotope ratios on single amino acids of collagen samples for these two Neandertals and associated fauna. The samples come from two sites dating to the Middle to Upper Paleolithic transition period (Les Cottés and Grotte du Renne, France). Our results reinforce the interpretation of Neandertal dietary adaptations as successful top-level carnivores, even after the arrival of modern humans in Europe. They also demonstrate that high δ15N values of bone collagen can solely be explained by mammal meat consumption, as supported by archeological and zooarcheological evidence, without necessarily invoking explanations including the processing of food (cooking, fermenting), the consumption of mammoths or young mammals, or additional (freshwater fish, mushrooms) dietary protein sources.



Read the study in full here:

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/11/4928
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  #2   ^
Old Mon, Mar-25-19, 11:29
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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It's time Neanderthals got their image spruced up. They were far more advanced than the stereotype!

Because all that protein grows brains.
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  #3   ^
Old Mon, Mar-25-19, 21:05
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deirdra deirdra is offline
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That explains it; I'm 2.9% Neanderthal (higher than average) according to my DNA.
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  #4   ^
Old Mon, Mar-25-19, 21:33
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Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
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Very interesting in France
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Grotte+du...mages&ia=images

Quote:
France reveals the woman's diet was mostly made up of meat not plants

Research shows that the neanderthals ate meat including reindeer and horse
They were traditionally considered carnivores and hunters of large mammals
But that theory has been challenged by evidence of plant consumption
They analysed a tooth, found in France, and found a high nitrogen isotope ratio, indicating that the person was a carnivore
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...not-plants.html


Deer https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Grotte+du...nnepainting.jpg

Last edited by Meme#1 : Mon, Mar-25-19 at 22:57.
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  #5   ^
Old Tue, Mar-26-19, 06:40
tess9132 tess9132 is offline
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I don't know how much Neanderthal my side of the family has versus my husband's, but I have to believe that protein cravings are somewhat biologically driven. I love beef. Our biological kids love beef. Our adopted kids love beef but have much broader palates. Meanwhile, my husband will get a hankering for beef once or twice a month. The rest of the time it's chicken for him. Same with his many siblings.

My husband and adopted kids like having plants in their diets. Me and our bio kids? Not so much. I would love to get a closer look at all our DNA's profiled side by side, but I'm not convinced that 23 and Me isn't part of some grand conspiracy to control us all.
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  #6   ^
Old Tue, Mar-26-19, 12:12
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GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tess9132
I would love to get a closer look at all our DNA's profiled side by side, but I'm not convinced that 23 and Me isn't part of some grand conspiracy to control us all.

I'm convinced I have a genetic influence resulting in a preference for red meat, but I fully agree that I won't be submitting anything for a genetic test. There's too much potential for enforcing stereotypes based on one's genotype. Given the epigenetic influences of one's environment at the cellular level that are now understood, analyses focused strictly at the genome level paints only a partial picture and has the potential to be applied inaccurately, a potentially dangerous prospect for misuse. These results simply represent tendencies in one's genetic design and don't consider the full breadth of influencing variables that have the power to turn these tendencies on or off.
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  #7   ^
Old Tue, Mar-26-19, 13:02
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Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Plan: atkins, carnivore 2023
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tess9132
I don't know how much Neanderthal my side of the family has versus my husband's, but I have to believe that protein cravings are somewhat biologically driven. I love beef. Our biological kids love beef. Our adopted kids love beef but have much broader palates. Meanwhile, my husband will get a hankering for beef once or twice a month. The rest of the time it's chicken for him. Same with his many siblings.

My husband and adopted kids like having plants in their diets. Me and our bio kids? Not so much. I would love to get a closer look at all our DNA's profiled side by side, but I'm not convinced that 23 and Me isn't part of some grand conspiracy to control us all.


Im concerned too about the 23 and Me, too.

I kept coming across a book at the library. I skipped over it many times as the title was just hoowee. But I finally got the message that I was supposed to pick up that book and read it... putting aside my biases. I was dumbfounded to the point of a " doh" moment.
The title is about eating to our blood type, yah right!,but it really is about all of the genes strung along the chromosome that provides blood type.It covers a very simple history of humans: their original region of blood type origin, and hence why some foods work better than others for each one of us.

The underlying basis is that the evolution of blood types, as presented , is accurate. What I can say is that my blood type matches up with the information and totally explains my love of turkey. Love beef, but I will eat a surprising amount of turkey in a year!!

Oddly it actually covers the quirks of a couple island genetics. ANd it fits me! So Im thinking there could be valid reasons to eat this and not that based on blood type.

And no need for 23 and Me,
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  #8   ^
Old Tue, Mar-26-19, 16:09
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mike_d mike_d is offline
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My 23 and Me results are just in. Haven't looked at them yet. Men all have the Neanderthal DNA matches like L1cam, Taz and Tktl1 on our X Chromosome 5%, but they are expressed to varying degrees. Phenotype tests don't show how much.
Quote:
Rob: These results simply represent tendencies in one's genetic design and don't consider the full breadth of influencing variables that have the power to turn these tendencies on or off.
I am likely largely "Eastern European" Brit+German American like others in my family tested, but I do get along much better with meat than bread

Last edited by mike_d : Tue, Mar-26-19 at 16:27.
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  #9   ^
Old Tue, Mar-26-19, 18:01
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Calianna Calianna is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
Im concerned too about the 23 and Me, too.

I kept coming across a book at the library. I skipped over it many times as the title was just hoowee. But I finally got the message that I was supposed to pick up that book and read it... putting aside my biases. I was dumbfounded to the point of a " doh" moment.
The title is about eating to our blood type, yah right!,but it really is about all of the genes strung along the chromosome that provides blood type.It covers a very simple history of humans: their original region of blood type origin, and hence why some foods work better than others for each one of us.

The underlying basis is that the evolution of blood types, as presented , is accurate. What I can say is that my blood type matches up with the information and totally explains my love of turkey. Love beef, but I will eat a surprising amount of turkey in a year!!

Oddly it actually covers the quirks of a couple island genetics. ANd it fits me! So Im thinking there could be valid reasons to eat this and not that based on blood type.

And no need for 23 and Me,



I'm assuming that the book was the Blood Type Diet, so here's what a quick google tells me those with my blood type (A) are supposed to eat:
Quote:
A meat-free diet based on fruits and vegetables, beans and legumes, and whole grains -- ideally, organic and fresh, because D'Adamo says people with type A blood have a sensitive immune system.




Um... No, just NO.
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  #10   ^
Old Wed, Mar-27-19, 05:06
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Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Plan: atkins, carnivore 2023
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calianna
I'm assuming that the book was the Blood Type Diet, so here's what a quick google tells me those with my blood type (A) are supposed to eat:




Um... No, just NO.


Remember this does not include the effects of a messed up diet for years. In DANDR, Dr Atkins carefully explains DANDR is a corrective diet, and many people around the world eat a no-meat diet but are not as lucky as we are to have a metabolic issue at this point in our lifespan.
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  #11   ^
Old Wed, Mar-27-19, 07:30
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GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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If we're talking about the Blood Type Diet, I discounted this years ago. While those first adopting Atkins may be experiencing a corrective diet during the first period, many have realized that a consistent WOE, while at first corrective, is a longer term necessity. Discovering the ideal diet must be experienced in the context of years of misinformed food consumption and then working our ways back to what actually works for us as we achieve health. Plans like the Blood Type Diet or the Martini Diet or the Scarborough Diet or Weight Watchers in its many variations are merely distracting way stations along the journey to good health.

Understanding what Neanderthals ate is a good context, as they are our DNA relatives, and it's as relevant as knowledge of a Paleo WOE to help us discover and achieve a healthy approach to eating. It leverages our genetic coding, and it's powerful to know the influences on health at the epigenetic level that can quickly result in improved health by understanding that food is an important part of our influencing environment at the cellular level. We don't have to wait for genetic code mutations (changes) to occur over many, many generations in order to realize positive adaptation to our current environment.
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  #12   ^
Old Wed, Mar-27-19, 08:31
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRB5111
We don't have to wait for genetic code mutations (changes) to occur over many, many generations in order to realize positive adaptation to our current environment.


Look at how sickness takes away our appetite. It goes with fasting's health improvements.
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  #13   ^
Old Thu, Mar-28-19, 07:00
Calianna's Avatar
Calianna Calianna is online now
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Plan: Atkins-ish (hypoglycemia)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
Remember this does not include the effects of a messed up diet for years. In DANDR, Dr Atkins carefully explains DANDR is a corrective diet, and many people around the world eat a no-meat diet but are not as lucky as we are to have a metabolic issue at this point in our lifespan.


For most people, that could very well be true, but unfortunately, I was messed up from the time I was born.


I don't know if I told this story on here before, but when my mother brought me home from the hospital, I slept for 14-1/2 hours solid. She repeatedly called the doctor during those hours, because she knew a newborn shouldn't be going so long without waking up, and without eating. They kept telling her to just let me sleep, until finally at the 14 hour point, the doctor said to go ahead and wake me up. She tried changing my diaper, undressing me, bathing me, and I still didn't wake up. She was then told to snap the bottoms of my feet with her fingernails (ouch), and shove a bottle in my mouth as soon as I opened my mouth to cry. Of course as all newborns do, I would then instinctively suck on the bottle until I was too full, spit out the rubber nipple, and was totally zonked out again for several hours. She routinely woke me up to eat for the first several months of my life.



Basically, I was in what I'd now call a carb coma most of that time, and despite having fewer feedings than most babies of that age (mom allowed me to sleep through the night), I gained weight very rapidly, which I now understand was because I was having blood sugar issues (hyperinsulinism) even at that age. It took approximately 19 years for them to finally figure out what my problem was - and with that diagnosis, they wanted me to eat a "diabetic" diet, which still had too many carbs, due to the fact that it included a small serving of potato or a slice of bread at every single meal, plus fruit or juice, and a glass of milk - basically a minimum of 120 g carbs daily. (Funny how the diabetic diet hasn't really changed since the early 70's) Still, even cutting back on the carbs that much helped start to lift the fog, and I ended up cutting out most of the carby stuff as not being worth bothering with if I was only allowed such a small serving, meaning that even then I was able to tell on some level that having any of it was just making me crave more. Then the 80's hit and I was convinced (along with most everyone else) that all that protein and fat, and especially all those eggs were deadly, so of course I gave up LCing, and ate tons of whole grains, pasta, fruit, potatoes... and ended up fatter than ever.



So when I say no, a meat free diet is definitely not what I ever needed, I can assure you that relying on fruit (carbs), and veggies, along with legumes, beans, and whole grains (mostly carbs, with some amino acids for proteins) would never have worked well for me.



But that's my n=1. For an A blood type who wasn't born completely messed up, it might just work.
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