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  #166   ^
Old Thu, Sep-23-10, 20:35
Fialka Fialka is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,101
 
Plan: Less meat, more veg LC
Stats: 252/217/180 Female 5'10"
BF:
Progress: 49%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginaW
DH makes two different recommendations to PCO women - those who are the classic apple are guided toward strict low-carb (20-40g) with weight loss targets, whereas the lean PCO is moderate carb (60-90g) with no weight loss objectives - both whole food options, very limited to no processed foods (ie. commercial salad dressing okay, low-carb bake mix not okay).

The two approaches work toward resolving homonal imbalance - estrogen, testosterone, progresterone, etc. are all on the wrong ends of the normal range....but slightly different in the apple versus the lean PCO, with each type also having different personality types (generally) and body composition.

The apple has more body fat, distributed differently than the apple, so it drives hormones differently, thus the recommendation for lower carb and weight loss; the apple also tends to have a higher level of inflammation which also needs to be resolved as much as possible. The lean PCO tends (generally) not to be a specific "weight watcher" but more naturally active and can tolerate more carbohydrate....with a normal body fat level, weight loss is undesirable and modifying the chemistry via dietary influence is the goal.

While diet alone doesn't always work, and alone will likely not work for the majority, it works a lot more than previously thought (there are still docs out there who, when giving a dx of PCO tell their patients they won't have kids)....DH has been tracking his PCO ladies for years now and has a stack of charts where diet alone led to pregnancy, some within a few months of initiating the dietary changes (after years of trying to no avail). He's also noted that in those that do not become pregnant with diet alone, the level of intervention needed to achieve and sustain pregnancy is less than if no dietary change is made.....basically medical intervention can still assist in attaining pregnancy if no change is made, but it's more intensive intervention.


Wish I was one of those who got pg on LC...sighs wistfully

Just for a data point. Guess what happens when you take prednisone 5-6 months out of a year for 15 years (before the advent of Azmacort or Advair)? You end up with PCOS and infertile and, just for extra fun, multiple bouts of secondary adrenal insufficiency.

NOTHING touches my PCOS.

NOTHING.

My current endo keeps falling back into the default position of 'you'll be fine once you lose weight.'

Ummm no.

My cholesterol will still SUCK.

My hair will still fall out.

The acne will continue unless I take antibiotics daily.

I won't get a period although I can, as I learned in March, essentially hemorrage (sp?) with estrogen dominance.

All LC does is control my blood sugar and enable weight loss. That's it. Weight loss cures nothing for me. I am not even sure that it lowers my risk of diabetes at this point.

At least I'll be a thin diabetic.

Wish I could find an endo who Gets It.

Of course, I have always felt different from other women with PCOS. My history is so different, no family history of PCOS, not even diabetes. Their moms all have it--they are aware of it as a family. They can do weight watchers and lose weight (even apple shaped). Totally not my situation.

Sigh.

F
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  #167   ^
Old Thu, Sep-23-10, 20:37
jschwab jschwab is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,378
 
Plan: Atkins72/Paleo/NoGrain/IF
Stats: 285/220/200 Female 5 feet 5.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 76%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron_Mocci
How did we ever make it to 2010 ?


I thought you meant the number of posts in this thread Seriously, I think we always adapt as a species somehow. I think alot about not being the person who can't run away if a building collapses or how I would get to my parents if all the bridges are blown up or how can I carry my child if they get tired while we are fleeing as refugees, but most people with less active imaginations are hardly confronted with their own physical inadequacies. Most of us see fat as a liability but as my husband's Polish grandfather used to say "in times of hardship, fat people get thin, in times of hardship, thin people die".
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  #168   ^
Old Thu, Sep-23-10, 20:44
jschwab jschwab is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,378
 
Plan: Atkins72/Paleo/NoGrain/IF
Stats: 285/220/200 Female 5 feet 5.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 76%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fialka
Wish I was one of those who got pg on LC...sighs wistfully

Just for a data point. Guess what happens when you take prednisone 5-6 months out of a year for 15 years (before the advent of Azmacort or Advair)? You end up with PCOS and infertile and, just for extra fun, multiple bouts of secondary adrenal insufficiency.

NOTHING touches my PCOS.

NOTHING.

My current endo keeps falling back into the default position of 'you'll be fine once you lose weight.'

Ummm no.

My cholesterol will still SUCK.

My hair will still fall out.

The acne will continue unless I take antibiotics daily.

I won't get a period although I can, as I learned in March, essentially hemorrage (sp?) with estrogen dominance.

All LC does is control my blood sugar and enable weight loss. That's it. Weight loss cures nothing for me. I am not even sure that it lowers my risk of diabetes at this point.

At least I'll be a thin diabetic.

Wish I could find an endo who Gets It.

Of course, I have always felt different from other women with PCOS. My history is so different, no family history of PCOS, not even diabetes. Their moms all have it--they are aware of it as a family. They can do weight watchers and lose weight (even apple shaped). Totally not my situation.

Sigh.

F


Looking at your stats, I wonder if you are just not there yet? Maybe once you get closer to goal you'll see more changes? That prednisone is evil stuff. I'm sorry this isn't going better for you.
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  #169   ^
Old Thu, Sep-23-10, 20:50
Fialka Fialka is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,101
 
Plan: Less meat, more veg LC
Stats: 252/217/180 Female 5'10"
BF:
Progress: 49%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jschwab
Looking at your stats, I wonder if you are just not there yet? Maybe once you get closer to goal you'll see more changes? That prednisone is evil stuff. I'm sorry this isn't going better for you.



No this is my second round of weight loss with LC so I know how this is going to go (I got pg with IVF and had a baby who didn't sleep for about 16 months. Guess what? I can't lose weight when sleep deprived, so I am just now coming out of that and losing the baby+no sleep weight. But I am also adrenally insufficient this time as I rapidly lost 20lbs with LC, promptly got sick, ended up in the hospital and on prednisone for a month. They subsequently botched the taper even though they had the data on how fast my HPA axis shuts down and despite my protests. So now my adrenals are trashed again for the next year. Which both helps and hurt weight loss--adrenal insufficiency suppresses appetite.)

The last time I lost weight, I didn't miraculously ovulate. My cholesterol didn't change. I had the same bald spot (pregnancy helped with that, but now my hair is falling out again). It was such a let down.

In fact, I got super sick again after losing weight the last time--multiple ER visits, almost ended up in the hospital. Lost my GSV in my right leg which spontaneously collapsed one day. The only positive of weight loss was I got pg via IVF (which who knows if losing weight helped or not)?

I see no immediate health improvements with weight loss. Long term benefits are impossible to predict, but I am not too optimistic.

I am not too interested in endos telling me weight loss is my magic bullet. Just shows they aren't listening b/c I tell them my history and give them the lab work.

I worry all the time that it's too late for me, that I've wasted whatever chances I had to get this right.

F

Last edited by Fialka : Thu, Sep-23-10 at 21:12.
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  #170   ^
Old Fri, Sep-24-10, 01:28
amandawald amandawald is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,737
 
Plan: Ray Peat (not low-carb)
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 164cm
BF:
Progress: 51%
Location: Brit in Europe
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fialka
I see no immediate health improvements with weight loss. Long term benefits are impossible to predict, but I am not too optimistic.

I am not too interested in endos telling me weight loss is my magic bullet. Just shows they aren't listening b/c I tell them my history and give them the lab work.

I worry all the time that it's too late for me, that I've wasted whatever chances I had to get this right.

F


Hi Fialka,

Sorry to hear about your terrible experiences. Have you looked into Schwarzbein as an alternative to your "standard" LC diet? It doesn't focus on weight loss as a primary goal, but on getting healthier, with weight loss as an eventual natural side-effect.

From what I have heard about the protein-sparing thing you are doing, that is like a super-unhealthy and unbalanced diet. I might be mixing it up with something else, though. Who recommended that diet to you and can you give us some info about it???

Thanks, hope things improve soon,

amanda
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  #171   ^
Old Fri, Sep-24-10, 02:32
Pilili Pilili is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 327
 
Plan: Avoid PUFA, sugar & bread
Stats: 240/210/150 Female 156cm
BF:
Progress: 33%
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fialka
I worry all the time that it's too late for me, that I've wasted whatever chances I had to get this right.


This is without the doubt the last thing you should do.

It's a quest for many of us to find out what went wrong when and how.
The moment you pinpoint the cause of your overweight or for any ailment for that matter, the "easy" part comes: repairing and restoring.

I have ready so much these past few months that I think that hardly anyone is beyond hope.
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  #172   ^
Old Fri, Sep-24-10, 06:04
ReginaW's Avatar
ReginaW ReginaW is offline
Contrarian
Posts: 2,759
 
Plan: Atkins/Controlled Carb
Stats: 275/190/190 Female 72
BF:Not a clue!
Progress: 100%
Location: Missouri
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fialka
No this is my second round of weight loss with LC so I know how this is going to go (I got pg with IVF and had a baby who didn't sleep for about 16 months. Guess what? I can't lose weight when sleep deprived, so I am just now coming out of that and losing the baby+no sleep weight. But I am also adrenally insufficient this time as I rapidly lost 20lbs with LC, promptly got sick, ended up in the hospital and on prednisone for a month. They subsequently botched the taper even though they had the data on how fast my HPA axis shuts down and despite my protests. So now my adrenals are trashed again for the next year. Which both helps and hurt weight loss--adrenal insufficiency suppresses appetite.)

The last time I lost weight, I didn't miraculously ovulate. My cholesterol didn't change. I had the same bald spot (pregnancy helped with that, but now my hair is falling out again). It was such a let down.

In fact, I got super sick again after losing weight the last time--multiple ER visits, almost ended up in the hospital. Lost my GSV in my right leg which spontaneously collapsed one day. The only positive of weight loss was I got pg via IVF (which who knows if losing weight helped or not)?

I see no immediate health improvements with weight loss. Long term benefits are impossible to predict, but I am not too optimistic.

I am not too interested in endos telling me weight loss is my magic bullet. Just shows they aren't listening b/c I tell them my history and give them the lab work.

I worry all the time that it's too late for me, that I've wasted whatever chances I had to get this right.

F


I'm so sorry!

You're absolutely right - an endo that tells you to just lose weight and all will be fine has his head up his butt.....find a new one if you can, travel if you have to!
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  #173   ^
Old Fri, Sep-24-10, 06:09
ReginaW's Avatar
ReginaW ReginaW is offline
Contrarian
Posts: 2,759
 
Plan: Atkins/Controlled Carb
Stats: 275/190/190 Female 72
BF:Not a clue!
Progress: 100%
Location: Missouri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by melibsmile
Thanks for the reply Regina. What if the patient is not an apple nor lean--what if she's a very large pear?

--Melissa


I asked DH....pears tend to have the, if you can say it this way, 'best of both worlds' - in that their symptoms tend to be less intense than an overt overweight apple or a lean PCO (lean PCO women tend to be both apples or pears, depending on where weight gain would go if they gained more weight, but they're typically lean and muscular, naturally (often) athletic)....in DH's experience he said the pear-shaped PCO tends to respond quicker to LC diet and to any interventions. If they need to lose weight, weight-loss is indicated, if they don't they modify diet to moderate carb with no weight loss. Also, in his experience there is no real difference in the number that will have diet alone work for them and those that will need some sort of intervention.

Hope this helps.
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  #174   ^
Old Fri, Sep-24-10, 06:26
Fialka Fialka is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,101
 
Plan: Less meat, more veg LC
Stats: 252/217/180 Female 5'10"
BF:
Progress: 49%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginaW
I'm so sorry!

You're absolutely right - an endo that tells you to just lose weight and all will be fine has his head up his butt.....find a new one if you can, travel if you have to!


Thank you.

I am now trying to locate an endo with some kind of adrenal experience/interest. I live with a major university hospital system and another world class hospital system (in the news a lot)and neither seems to have an endo who does adrenals. They all do diabetes and thyroid. So I may have to travel.

I feel lucky to have an endo who at least understands I am AI and will prescribe the stress dose prednisone I need. It took me 2 weeks to get a doctor on board. Meanwhile, my bp was 90/60 and I was in the ER having a hard time staying conscious.

Sucks to be medically unique.

Anyway, I find non-RE endos to be quite constrained in their thinking and not on the cutting edge. Whereas the majority of REs I've worked with have been amazing.

F
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  #175   ^
Old Fri, Sep-24-10, 14:01
Merpig's Avatar
Merpig Merpig is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 7,582
 
Plan: EF/Fung IDM/keto
Stats: 375/225.4/175 Female 66.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 75%
Location: NE Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtor
We only have to live about 20 years to reproduce and then it doesn't matter how long we live after that. So the human race could endure much worse still.
Well maybe a BIT longer than that. After all, human babies need a lot of tending those first few years. You'd probably need someone around until they at least hit their teens and could begin reproducing themselves. But yeah, after about 40 I guess Mother Nature doesn't really care.
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  #176   ^
Old Fri, Sep-24-10, 15:24
melibsmile's Avatar
melibsmile melibsmile is offline
Absurdtive
Posts: 11,313
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 272.5/174.4/165 Female 5'4
BF:44?/32.6/20
Progress: 91%
Location: SF Bay Area
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginaW
I asked DH....pears tend to have the, if you can say it this way, 'best of both worlds' - in that their symptoms tend to be less intense than an overt overweight apple or a lean PCO (lean PCO women tend to be both apples or pears, depending on where weight gain would go if they gained more weight, but they're typically lean and muscular, naturally (often) athletic)....in DH's experience he said the pear-shaped PCO tends to respond quicker to LC diet and to any interventions. If they need to lose weight, weight-loss is indicated, if they don't they modify diet to moderate carb with no weight loss. Also, in his experience there is no real difference in the number that will have diet alone work for them and those that will need some sort of intervention.

Hope this helps.

Thanks Regina. My sister has PCO we think and has been having difficulty finding a doctor who understands--she is pear-shaped but very heavy (300+), so she doesn't fit the typical profile. What did you mean by 'there is no real difference in the number that will have diet alone work for them and those that will need some sort of intervention'. Which groups are you referring to here?

--Melissa
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  #177   ^
Old Fri, Sep-24-10, 16:02
jschwab jschwab is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,378
 
Plan: Atkins72/Paleo/NoGrain/IF
Stats: 285/220/200 Female 5 feet 5.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 76%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fialka
No this is my second round of weight loss with LC so I know how this is going to go (I got pg with IVF and had a baby who didn't sleep for about 16 months. Guess what? I can't lose weight when sleep deprived, so I am just now coming out of that and losing the baby+no sleep weight. But I am also adrenally insufficient this time as I rapidly lost 20lbs with LC, promptly got sick, ended up in the hospital and on prednisone for a month. They subsequently botched the taper even though they had the data on how fast my HPA axis shuts down and despite my protests. So now my adrenals are trashed again for the next year. Which both helps and hurt weight loss--adrenal insufficiency suppresses appetite.)

The last time I lost weight, I didn't miraculously ovulate. My cholesterol didn't change. I had the same bald spot (pregnancy helped with that, but now my hair is falling out again). It was such a let down.

In fact, I got super sick again after losing weight the last time--multiple ER visits, almost ended up in the hospital. Lost my GSV in my right leg which spontaneously collapsed one day. The only positive of weight loss was I got pg via IVF (which who knows if losing weight helped or not)?

I see no immediate health improvements with weight loss. Long term benefits are impossible to predict, but I am not too optimistic.

I am not too interested in endos telling me weight loss is my magic bullet. Just shows they aren't listening b/c I tell them my history and give them the lab work.

I worry all the time that it's too late for me, that I've wasted whatever chances I had to get this right.

F


That stinks and I have a lot of sympathy. I am also one that never felt better in a qualitative way just from losing weight and othen it's been detrimental to my health - although not nearly as detrimental as you have found. I intentionally gained 20 pounds back from my lowest point because I felt like heck, even though technically I was still obese. If you were thin, your symptoms would be taken seriously, I think - so frustrating. I run and I tend to get injured when I lose below a certain point and I always feed into the myth that losing weight will help with overuse injuries.
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  #178   ^
Old Fri, Sep-24-10, 16:16
ReginaW's Avatar
ReginaW ReginaW is offline
Contrarian
Posts: 2,759
 
Plan: Atkins/Controlled Carb
Stats: 275/190/190 Female 72
BF:Not a clue!
Progress: 100%
Location: Missouri
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by melibsmile
Thanks Regina. My sister has PCO we think and has been having difficulty finding a doctor who understands--she is pear-shaped but very heavy (300+), so she doesn't fit the typical profile. What did you mean by 'there is no real difference in the number that will have diet alone work for them and those that will need some sort of intervention'. Which groups are you referring to here?

--Melissa


That across the three types, in order of incidence - apple, lean and pear - each type appears to have similar outcomes statistically in the percentage that diet alone works versus diet + intervention working versus intervention only working.....basically within each body-type a certain percentage will see results with diet-only, but you just don't know who they are when they're sitting in front of you.....same with diet + intervention.....intervention only works for most, but is more intense without modifying diet and also has more complicated pregnancies once they're achieved, which is why DH tries to get some dietary modification in his patients since it helps alot, whether that woman is going to see diet-alone work beautifully for her, or whether she'll need some intervention to assist getting pregnant.
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  #179   ^
Old Fri, Sep-24-10, 16:46
melibsmile's Avatar
melibsmile melibsmile is offline
Absurdtive
Posts: 11,313
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 272.5/174.4/165 Female 5'4
BF:44?/32.6/20
Progress: 91%
Location: SF Bay Area
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginaW
That across the three types, in order of incidence - apple, lean and pear - each type appears to have similar outcomes statistically in the percentage that diet alone works versus diet + intervention working versus intervention only working.....basically within each body-type a certain percentage will see results with diet-only, but you just don't know who they are when they're sitting in front of you.....same with diet + intervention.....intervention only works for most, but is more intense without modifying diet and also has more complicated pregnancies once they're achieved, which is why DH tries to get some dietary modification in his patients since it helps alot, whether that woman is going to see diet-alone work beautifully for her, or whether she'll need some intervention to assist getting pregnant.

Thanks for clarifying. What types of interventions are you talking about? My sister isn't trying to get pregnant right now, but she's wondering if she needs to be taking hormones or other meds.

--Melissa
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  #180   ^
Old Fri, Sep-24-10, 19:03
ReginaW's Avatar
ReginaW ReginaW is offline
Contrarian
Posts: 2,759
 
Plan: Atkins/Controlled Carb
Stats: 275/190/190 Female 72
BF:Not a clue!
Progress: 100%
Location: Missouri
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by melibsmile
Thanks for clarifying. What types of interventions are you talking about? My sister isn't trying to get pregnant right now, but she's wondering if she needs to be taking hormones or other meds.

--Melissa


It depends if there is any male factor to consider. Intervention can be as simple as a natural IUI - that is collect semen, prep and transfer into woman when she ovulates without using any drugs....to clomid to stimulate multiple eggs (but not too many) with IUI.....to hormone injections with IUI (again trying not to make too many eggs).....to natural cycle IVF (collect one egg or whatever is made naturally, no drugs), IVF with injectables, IVF with ICSI, etc. Each listed being more intensive than the previous.

If she's not trying to get pregnant, she wouldn't need to take meds or hormones unless she needs those for something else. For example, many PCO women take the pill to get a period each month, others don't....others ovulate and get a period when they modify their diet (pretty quickly), others don't for a long time, or don't still.
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