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  #1   ^
Old Mon, Dec-31-07, 10:19
leasmom's Avatar
leasmom leasmom is offline
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Posts: 800
 
Plan: Semi-Vegeterian LCer
Stats: 375/000/220 Female 5'5
BF:45%
Progress: 242%
Location: Tenn now in Michigan
Default How do you stay full?

Help, I am trying to figure out what I could eat that would fill me up but be low carb?
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  #2   ^
Old Mon, Dec-31-07, 23:54
NorthPeace's Avatar
NorthPeace NorthPeace is offline
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Posts: 388
 
Plan: Nutritarian
Stats: 248/208/168 Male 5'9"
BF:Waist 46?/34/?
Progress: 50%
Location: British Columbia
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The standard vegetarian way to feel full is with fibre which also sort of holds water without it swooshing around in your stomach. All plant foods contain fibre. If you don't want to consume excess calories, the way to do it is with the lowest calorie plants, the non-starchy vegetables. Really what you want, for a host of reasons, is to eat about a pound of leafy greens a day. They are low carb, even as a percentage of their low calories, high protein, contain some omega fats too, and are rich in many nutrients.
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  #3   ^
Old Tue, Jan-01-08, 12:25
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Gaelen Gaelen is offline
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Posts: 244
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 216/166/150 Female 60 inches
BF:45%/33.5%/28%
Progress: 76%
Location: CNY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthPeace
The standard vegetarian way to feel full is with fibre which also sort of holds water without it swooshing around in your stomach. All plant foods contain fibre. If you don't want to consume excess calories, the way to do it is with the lowest calorie plants, the non-starchy vegetables. Really what you want, for a host of reasons, is to eat about a pound of leafy greens a day. They are low carb, even as a percentage of their low calories, high protein, contain some omega fats too, and are rich in many nutrients.


Oh my.
That advice sounds a lot more like the 'standard party line' of 90s era low fat vegetarians than like a practical way to be a 21st century vegetarian low carber. Eating this way is NOT about CONTROLLING YOUR CALORIES, for pete's sake. And that advice is NOT any way at all to 'stay full' or effectively follow a vegetarian low carb plan.

First, many people cannot tolerate 'a pound of leafy greens a day.' To use a pictorial example, that's more than three full 5 oz., 6 cup bags of the pre-washed baby spinach available from the vegetable section of the supermarket (the standard, two bags for five dollars size is only about 5 oz.!) It's an entire HEAD of kale, including the stems. Frankly, that may work for you, NorthPeace, but in practice, a good-sized salad of chopped greens (half of one of those bags of spinach) is only about 3 cups of greens. That's less than a quarter of what you're recommending here. I eat some amount of greens every day--but 1-3 cups is a long way from a full pound.

Second, the human body needs adequate protein and good fats to feel full and stay that way for longer than an hour. The fullness most people would feel after eating a pound of leafy greens is gas, not a feeling of satiety--and you wouldn't be getting anywhere near the recommended adequate protein levels your body needs by going early 90s low fat vegetarian.

Leasmom, I know from other threads you have some food sensitivity issues, and I have no idea what you consider 'low carb' (for me, it's <40g ECC per day and around 12-15g per meal). But off the top of my head, the vegetarian things I would recommend to fill you up would include:
- nuts, seeds, and nut/seed butters
- soybeans in any form (tofu, tempeh, edamame, soybean burgers, soymilk and cheeses made from soymilk if you don't do dairy)
- full fat dairy if you can tolerate dairy--dry curd cottage cheese, full fat ricotta, cheeses of any and all kinds
- extra virgin olive oil
- butter
- small quantities of lentils, black-eyed peas, garbanzo beans either whole or pureed with good fats to make dips
- avocados
- wheat gluten or wheat meat, if you can tolerate gluten
- eggs, in any form

If you can tolerate dairy, try making custards with eggs and heavy cream, or cheesecakes without sugar, to use to boost your intake.

If you can tolerate them, commercially prepared low carb wraps and tortillas can be very filling when spread with things like nut butters, cream cheese, black or green soybean spread, etc.

If you can eat eggs, then try quiches, frittatas, egg salads, egg custards.

Nut flours can be made into muffins and pancakes, crusts which you can fill with roasted veggies and cheese, or treat like pizza, and more.

I find that thick vegetable soups, thickened with a puree of veggies and/or cream or cheese, and a carb-appropriate serving of pita, Wasa rye crackers, a low carb wrap stuffed with veggies and cheese or something similar will fill me up from supper to breakfast.

I typically have a protein shake in the morning that is 40g protein and 8g carbs, and it holds me from 7 a.m. to well past noon. I make it from a good quality whey protein powder (Isopure Chocolate Low Carb), cold coffee, kefir and a shot of half and half.

You might also want to try Quorn; some versions of it are low carb (read the labels!) and when I've had it, it's been very filling.

I know you've mentioned you don't really eat fish, but if you're willing to give it a go, things like canned salmon and canned tuna, oyster stew, clam fritters, salmon croquettes with cheese sauces or mushroom sauces are inexpensive, low carb, filling and yes--meatless.

Some of these things may not apply to your personal food tastes or limitations, but the key is to take what you can use from the list and mix/match it to suit you. Remember that when you cut carbs, you NEED fats and proteins. If you don't give those things to your body, you WILL be hungry all the time.

Are you following any specific plan, or just kind of doing your own thing?

Last edited by Gaelen : Tue, Jan-01-08 at 12:35.
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  #4   ^
Old Tue, Jan-01-08, 14:34
NorthPeace's Avatar
NorthPeace NorthPeace is offline
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Posts: 388
 
Plan: Nutritarian
Stats: 248/208/168 Male 5'9"
BF:Waist 46?/34/?
Progress: 50%
Location: British Columbia
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Sorry, Leasmom for hijacking the thread, but Gaelen does not understand at all where I am coming from and is misrepresenting my POV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaelen
Oh my.
That advice sounds a lot more like the 'standard party line' of 90s era low fat vegetarians than like a practical way to be a 21st century vegetarian low carber. Eating this way is NOT about CONTROLLING YOUR CALORIES, for pete's sake. And that advice is NOT any way at all to 'stay full' or effectively follow a vegetarian low carb plan.

I donít control my calories, I control the type of food I eat (mainly veg, fruit, pulses nut & seeds). I find it impossible to consume over 2400 kcal/d, and average 1850 whenever I care to count them. I get more than 30% from fat; that is not low fat. Bulk, fibre, volume does physically fill you. It is a law of physics not a party line. When we very overweight we only need about 12% of calories from protein, 10% from carbs and 15% from fat, so why not eat micronutrient rich foods, but be full, and let our bodies supply the remaining calories?

Satiation is more complex however. Seems to me it can be one or any combination of being physically full, getting the nutrients your body needs, including fat in a meal, feeding an addiction, feeding an emotional need, and the presence or absence of ketones in the blood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaelen
First, many people cannot tolerate 'a pound of leafy greens a day.' To use a pictorial example, that's more than three full 5 oz., 6 cup bags of the pre-washed baby spinach available from the vegetable section of the supermarket (the standard, two bags for five dollars size is only about 5 oz.!) It's an entire HEAD of kale, including the stems. Frankly, that may work for you, NorthPeace, but in practice, a good-sized salad of chopped greens (half of one of those bags of spinach) is only about 3 cups of greens. That's less than a quarter of what you're recommending here. I eat some amount of greens every day--but 1-3 cups is a long way from a full pound.

For me the first 7 days were rather explosive but it settled down nicely after that. It might have been safer for my coworkers and me if I increased daily consumption more gradually, by say 1oz/d each week. It appears to be a matter of getting sufficient microflora established. Yes it is essentially a head of romaine lettuce or kale, or a typical bunch of spinach. I buy one of each and they last me four or five days. Besides that, most days I will eat about 8 oz of cooked greens or crucifers. Keep in mind though that I am a male with a larger frame than the OP. If chewing takes too long you can make blended smoothies. If the fibre/bulk is a problem you can juice. (ETA: Cooking also makes it easier. We are not talking about eating 4-5 large salads a day.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaelen
Second, the human body needs adequate protein and good fats to feel full and stay that way for longer than an hour. The fullness most people would feel after eating a pound of leafy greens is gas, not a feeling of satiety--and you wouldn't be getting anywhere near the recommended adequate protein levels your body needs by going early 90s low fat vegetarian.

I get 18% from protein, about 85g/d. I believe the RDA for males is around 55g/d protein. I am not a proponent of 90s low fat vegetarianism and frankly donít know much about it. The only protein risk to a properly planned vegan diet that I know of is that some women cannot make enough of their own taurine, and need some animal products or a supplement. Some low fat vegans may be deficient in leucine or isoleucine. Having the right microflora, chewing thoroughly and not overeating help a lot with minimizing gas.

Leasmom, I agree with Gaelenís recommendations for nuts, seeds, nut butters, avocados, pulses and eggs. However, EVOO and butter seems to be too little benefit for the calories you take in, offering no important nutrition that you canít get from foods that contain more micronutrients per calorie. Gaelen, keep in mind that a vegetarian is not going to be consuming less than 100g net carbs/d, so heavy reliance on fat for fuel wonít give a vegetarian the appetite suppressing effect that ketosis brings.

Last edited by NorthPeace : Tue, Jan-01-08 at 14:56.
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  #5   ^
Old Tue, Jan-01-08, 14:38
Culturista Culturista is offline
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Posts: 165
 
Plan: Whole Foods/Low Carb
Stats: 306/248/198 Female 5'9"
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Location: California
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I could eat an entire bunch of kale with coconut oil, pepper, salt and a splash of a good vinegar! Yum!!! I want that now!
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  #6   ^
Old Tue, Jan-01-08, 18:20
Gaelen's Avatar
Gaelen Gaelen is offline
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Posts: 244
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 216/166/150 Female 60 inches
BF:45%/33.5%/28%
Progress: 76%
Location: CNY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthPeace
Sorry, Leasmom for hijacking the thread, but Gaelen does not understand at all where I am coming from and is misrepresenting my POV.


Au contraire, Northpeace...I understand exactly where you're coming from, and I read up on your POV before I replied the first time. I've read your 'diet' description--appropriately posted in the War Zone--and quite frankly, 'the thing is what it thinks it is.' As I said in my last post, what you do may work for you, but I'm going to quote your own words from the thread listed in your profile before I go any further:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthPeace
Rather than hijack other threads when I talk about my strange eating habits, I am just going to post here in the War Zone. What better subject for a war zone thread than a diet that is not low carb, that in fact pays little attention to proportions of macronutrients?


Apparently, the War Zone wasn't receptive enough to your 'strange eating habits' so you sought more conversational waters?

Quote:
I donít control my calories,


Perhaps not, but your original suggestion to Leasmom implied that calorie control might be what she was seeking ("If you don't want to consume excess calories, the way to do it is with the lowest calorie plants, the non-starchy vegetables.') That statement suggests that you have minimal grasp on the science behind why low carb ways of eating actually work. You might want to cruise through 'Good Calories, Bad Calories' by Gary Taubes. It's kind of a long cruise, but give it a shot.

Quote:
Bulk, fibre, volume does physically fill you. It is a law of physics not a party line. When we very overweight we only need about 12% of calories from protein, 10% from carbs and 15% from fat, so why not eat micronutrient rich foods, but be full, and let our bodies supply the remaining calories? ... I get 18% from protein, about 85g/d. I believe the RDA for males is around 55g/d protein.


That 'bulk fills you up' IS a party line, both of the American Dietetic Association and of the USDA, as well as of 90s vegetarians. 'We only need 12% of calories from protein, 10% from carbs and 15% from fat' is data based on old recommendations (1971 and 1985 WHO recommendations.) It's old information, old research, science which has been contested repeatedly within the last 15 years although it keeps rearing its ugly head for (mainly) political reasons and socioeconomic misconceptions. BTW, the 'RDA for males of 55g/day of protein' advice is woefully inadequate. The RDA for a woman of my size is about 35g/day. I eat that for breakfast, and eat about three times that amount total per day, on the recommendations of the nutritionists who work with the surgeons at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center.

Yeah, I've got cancer. Family history--you can't always get past your genes. I was a vegetarian for 25 years, long before low-fat mania hit vegetarianism. Being vegetarian is supposed to reduce your cancer risk. Speaking as an 'n' of 1, I can categorically say 'not so much.'

Humans need a minimum of 0.5g protein per pound of lean body mass if sedentary, and up to 0.9g protein per pound of LBM if more active, very overweight, or under physical stress from illness (see M.R. and M.D. Eades, 'Protein Power', 1995; M.G. Kurilla at http://www.becomehealthynow.com/ebookprint.php?id=568 ; if you need more citations than that, I can get them.)

Quote:
I am not a proponent of 90s low fat vegetarianism and frankly donít know much about it.


Well, while you may not 'know much about it,' your recommendations and many of Fuhrman's are McDougal and Ornish and 90s low fat vegetarian to a 'T.' And there are several 'protein risks' to a 'properly planned vegan diet'--chiefly that some of the people who are 'properly planning' those diets are still stuck on 1971 and 1985 recommendations for body weight, body fat percentage and protein intake that desperately need to be updated.

Quote:
Leasmom, I agree with Gaelenís recommendations for nuts, seeds, nut butters, avocados, pulses and eggs. However, EVOO and butter seems to be too little benefit for the calories you take in, offering no important nutrition that you canít get from foods that contain more micronutrients per calorie.


Really? I thought you weren't 'controlling calories.' Reality check.

Quote:
Gaelen, keep in mind that a vegetarian is not going to be consuming less than 100g net carbs/d, so heavy reliance on fat for fuel wonít give a vegetarian the appetite suppressing effect that ketosis brings.


Really? Guess you haven't met too many low carbing vegetarians.
I am no longer vegetarian, for medical reasons--I cannot digest enough protein from a completely vegetable source diet. Nowadays, about a third of my meals are pescetarian (seafood), which I have always considered meatless. The balance of my meals are ovo-lacto vegetarian, and some are vegan. I routinely consume <45g ECC/day, with approximately 65% of my average caloric intake as fats, 10% as carbs ad 25% as protein.

If you are interested in becoming better informed about low carbing in general and vegetarian low carbing in particular (since that IS the topic of this forum...), try visiting http://immuneweb.org/lowcarb/ or doing a google search on Cyndi Norwitz.

Last edited by Gaelen : Wed, Jan-02-08 at 17:04. Reason: corrected spelling--Gaelen
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  #7   ^
Old Thu, Jan-03-08, 08:49
leasmom's Avatar
leasmom leasmom is offline
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Posts: 800
 
Plan: Semi-Vegeterian LCer
Stats: 375/000/220 Female 5'5
BF:45%
Progress: 242%
Location: Tenn now in Michigan
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I have to make out a grocery list. I was vegeterian twice in my life and I ate way too many carbs and actually gained 16 lbs. I want to do this right because I can't eat meat because of gout. I can eat chicken, some seafood-(some creates gout symptoms and I hate the taste, I'm not even a fan of shrimp which is on the no-no list for gout)-turkey and veal on occasion. I can't eat certain vegetables but on occasion because of gout as well. I haven't been vegeterian in years and I followed the Atkins diet for 3 yrs which is why I developed the extreme sensitivity I did to meats. I want to lose weight, eat well and be full and satisfied, and eat healthy.
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  #8   ^
Old Thu, Jan-03-08, 09:49
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Wifezilla Wifezilla is offline
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Plan: I'm a Barry Girl
Stats: 250/208/190 Female 72
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Progress: 70%
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Quote:
Bulk, fibre, volume does physically fill you.


Nope...never did for me. The only things that help me feel full are fats and protein. Coconut oil, avacado, olive oil dressing, walnuts, etc...all help me feel full.

When I was a vegetarian, I also gained weight due to carbs, even though they were whole wheat and I had plenty of fiber and bulk. All the bulk ever did was make me gassy.
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  #9   ^
Old Sun, Jan-06-08, 10:05
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Gaelen Gaelen is offline
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Posts: 244
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 216/166/150 Female 60 inches
BF:45%/33.5%/28%
Progress: 76%
Location: CNY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leasmom
I have to make out a grocery list. I was vegeterian twice in my life and I ate way too many carbs and actually gained 16 lbs. I want to do this right because I can't eat meat because of gout. I can eat chicken, some seafood-(some creates gout symptoms and I hate the taste, I'm not even a fan of shrimp which is on the no-no list for gout)-turkey and veal on occasion. I can't eat certain vegetables but on occasion because of gout as well. I haven't been vegeterian in years and I followed the Atkins diet for 3 yrs which is why I developed the extreme sensitivity I did to meats. I want to lose weight, eat well and be full and satisfied, and eat healthy.


Well...no idea who or how many you're feeding, or for how long, but this is my typical shopping basket. I shop for just me, in local chain supermarkets in the northeast (Wegmans, Price Chopper, P&C), and in a chain bag-your-own store called Aldi. I shop two or three times a week because I like to get fresh veggies and buy dairy in small quantities to keep it fresh (walking through the store is also part of my exercise plan...) I don't go to all of the stores available to me every week; this month I've mainly used Wegmans because I have to fill my chemo prescriptions there every week. But I read the stores' ads and since they're all in my neighborhood or on my way to work or home, I will stop for just one thing if it's on sale at a great price. I don't shop on the 'net for the things I use every day; occasionally I go to the Asian grocery store or the large natural foods store near work if I need something special or that's less expensive or fresher there.

Proteins
- fresh nuts, seeds, and nut/seed butters (snacks and nut butter wraps and sauces), a cup or so of each. You won't need to buy these every week.

- fresh hummus, about a cup a week

- soybeans in whatever form looks good that week (about a pound of tofu, tempeh, edamame). If you like them, you could also include soybean burgers, soymilk and cheeses made from soymilk if you don't do dairy.

- full fat dairy if you can tolerate dairy:
-- full fat ricotta, a pound per week (shakes, puddings, baked ricotta)
-- hard cheeses (swiss, smoked gouda, cheddar cheese curds, parmesan)
-- 2 quarts of plain, unsweetened kefir
-- a pint of half and half (a quart if I'm going to make a custard)
You could also pick up dry curd cottage cheese, plain unsweetened yogurt, cottage cheese, anything else in the dairy case that is unsweetened and catches your fancy.

- eggs, usually a half-dozen a week (more if I'm making a custard or pancakes)

- one to two lbs. of fish per week, in half-pound amounts of three or four different kinds (scallops, clams, mussels, oysters, tilapia, salmon, and sometimes salt cod or smoked herring)

- if you are eating chicken, I'd get around a pound or two per week per person; you're not going to get all your protein from chicken, but if a particular piece (chicken breasts) was on sale at an unbeatable price, I'd stock up and freeze at least half.

Figure that you're going to need at least a pound of fresh protein of some sort, per person, per day, to get 80-100g of protein (just a guess at your minimum protein requirement--it could be higher but likely won't be much lower than 80 grams.)

Fresh Fruits/vegetables
- some type of fresh dark leafy greens to last at least 3-4 days, usually about a pound (spinach, chard, kale, collards)
- cherry tomatoes or grape tomatoes which are fresh year round; larger tomatoes in summer when they're local and fresh
- mushrooms, about a half pound of crimini, Italian brown or basic white (for salads, omelets, gravies, soups)
Then I look to see what else is good--avocados, cabbage, zucchini, spaghetti squash, melons, winter squash, cauliflower. If you can eat asparagus, broccoli, green or wax beans--go for it! In the winter (right now, CNY is in winter) I will buy frozen veggies and frozen bags of either unsweetened strawberries, mixed berries or melon pieces to use with ricotta for snacks, in shakes, for sauces, etc.) I will also buy ruby red grapefruits, lemons, limes and oranges at this time of year for sauces, and to snack on the grapefruit (one grapefruit = about 4 servings). But I keep greens, tomatoes, mushrooms and lemons in the house all the time. I also pick up garlic, onions (green, red and yellow), a sweet potato and a couple small red or yellow potatoes every couple weeks or as needed. However, I'm in maintenance/slow weight loss at the moment--if potatoes are a trigger food for you, skip them.

Always in the pantry
- unsweetened, low carb vanilla whey protein powder
- Isopure low carb chocolate whey protein powder
- extra virgin olive oil
- butter
- coconut oil
- small quantities of whole lentils, black-eyed peas, garbanzo beans
- dry or canned black soybeans (cook the dried ones in a crockpot, and freeze them if you can't get the Eden Organic canned ones in your area)
- almond flour (for muffins, biscuits, pancakes)
- good spices: choose the things you like, and make sure they're fresh
- vital wheat gluten
- whole rolled oats
- whole wheat pasta (remember, I'm in maintenance--mainly, I use spaghetti squash or cooked greens as my vehicles for sauces. )
- some type of low carb wrap or pita bread, usually whole wheat and always under 7g ECC per serving
- canned seafoods (tuna, salmon, mussels, oysters, clams)
- seafood in pouches (tuna, salmon)
- organic unsweetened peanut butter
- organic unsweetened jam or fruit puree (something that's 6g ECC per tablespoon)

I thought I'd put a basic vegetarian low carbing shopping list somewhere here, but can't find it. I'll see if I've got it in my files. Happy shopping!
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  #10   ^
Old Mon, Jan-07-08, 14:40
leasmom's Avatar
leasmom leasmom is offline
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Posts: 800
 
Plan: Semi-Vegeterian LCer
Stats: 375/000/220 Female 5'5
BF:45%
Progress: 242%
Location: Tenn now in Michigan
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Thanks so much! I went today and got lots of fresh veggies. I bought a veggie pot pie for $3.99 the other day and though it was delicious I was horrified that I paid that much for a tiny pot pie when I could make it myself. I need to find some meals and write down a list of them to make, and double check it for the carb content.
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  #11   ^
Old Mon, Jan-07-08, 21:45
Ann1231's Avatar
Ann1231 Ann1231 is offline
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Posts: 1,256
 
Plan: lower carb
Stats: 186/181.5/125 Female 64 inches
BF:
Progress: 7%
Location: midwest
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I make a big batch of guacamole and use it with vegetables or with a spoon. It has enough fat to satiate and the taste is strong enough to satisfy. I also eat a lot of almonds, almond butter, some soymilk. Hummus is a good idea, I eat lots of homemade salsa, huge lettuce wraps with veggies, seeds, full fat dressing, etc. I can not eat any wheat because of gluten intolerance so fake meats are out, which is fine with me cuz I think they're disgusting anyway....
I do eat some cheese so I make huge trays of vegetables, cheeses, ranch dressing and I'm happy for hours
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  #12   ^
Old Wed, Jan-09-08, 11:21
leasmom's Avatar
leasmom leasmom is offline
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Plan: Semi-Vegeterian LCer
Stats: 375/000/220 Female 5'5
BF:45%
Progress: 242%
Location: Tenn now in Michigan
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I am having veg. red beans and brown rice tonight with a salad. Is that too carby.
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  #13   ^
Old Wed, Jan-09-08, 20:35
Gaelen's Avatar
Gaelen Gaelen is offline
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Posts: 244
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 216/166/150 Female 60 inches
BF:45%/33.5%/28%
Progress: 76%
Location: CNY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leasmom
I am having veg. red beans and brown rice tonight with a salad. Is that too carby.


Leasmom, the short answer is "probably yes."

I'd make it low carb with black soybeans for the red beans and finely chopped steamed cauliflower instead of rice, using the same spices, and you could get it to come in under 15g effective carbs per serving, depending on the other ingredients.

My red beans and rice recipe is over 50g ECc per serving (1/2 cup of rice + 2/3 cup of the red beans). 50 grams of effective carbs (that's the total carbs minus the fiber) is even a little high for a daily total for a low carber who's just starting and needs to lose a lot of weight. You want to stay under 10-15g ECC per meal in Protein Power, and if you're doing Atkins Induction (the first two weeks) you want to stay under 20g carbs for the entire day.

That means no traditional red beans and rice...but a less traditional low carb black soybean and chopped cauliflower version would fit in just fine.
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  #14   ^
Old Sun, Jan-13-08, 04:52
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27Peach 27Peach is offline
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Posts: 527
 
Plan: LC/IF
Stats: 180/173.8/150 Female 5'9"
BF:Not sure
Progress: 21%
Location: Greenville, SC
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When I was vegetarian years ago, which I am far from now, I learned about the dangers of many soy products and stopped eating soy products promptly. Please go to mercola.com and do a search on soy to read up on this subject. Processed soy products are BAD news to your health. Some potential effects on your health can be increased risk of breast cancer, thyroid disorders, promotion of kidney stones, weakening of the immune system, risk of developing severe and even fatal food allergies, etc. PLEASE read up on this.

Mercola says that the exceptions are this: "There are some redeeming qualities to soy, however these are found primarily in fermented soy products like tempeh, miso and natto and soybean sprouts. If you want to get some health benefits from soy, stick to these four forms and pass up the processed soy milks, soy Ďburgersí, soy Ďice creamí, soy Ďcheeseí, and the myriad of other soy junk foods that are so readily disguised as health foods."

As I said before, please do your own research on soy to make your own informed decision.
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Old Sun, Jan-13-08, 06:38
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Daryl Daryl is offline
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Plan: ZC
Stats: 260/222/170 Male 5-10
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Progress: 42%
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Interesting thread, everyone.

Hi Gaelen, hope you're doing okay
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