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  #16   ^
Old Sun, Mar-03-19, 09:38
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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I'm sort of surprised I don't haven't come across this before. But there's just so much of this stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aCHrHwm_AI

This video's worth watching, the fellow mentions what I'm talking about around 24 minutes. Damaged mitochondria getting into the bloodstream and triggering inflammation... that got me looking up this;


Quote:
Immune responses to mitochondria help explain body's inflammatory response to injury


Quote:
BOSTON -- Inflammation is at the root of most serious complications occurring after both infection and injury. But while the molecular course of events that leads from microbial infections to the inflammatory condition called sepsis is fairly well understood, it is far less clear how and why physical injury can result in a similarly dangerous inflammatory response.

Now a study led by investigators at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center (BIDMC) suggests that mitochondria - the body's cellular "power plants" -- are released into the bloodstream following physical injury. And because mitochondria closely resemble the bacteria from which they originated, they appear to elicit a sepsis-like immune response, changing from a vital source of cellular injury to a dangerous "enemy within."

Appearing in tomorrow's issue of the journal Nature, the findings could eventually lead to new strategies in the management of trauma as well as to the development of new tests to help clinicians discriminate between infective and non-infective inflammation.

"The body's vital organs can become dysfunctional when traumatic injury triggers the Systemic Inflammatory Response Syndrome, or SIRS," explains senior author Carl J. Hauser, MD, a trauma and critical care surgery specialist at BIDMC and Visiting Professor of Surgery at Harvard Medical School. "Trauma kills 5 to 10 million people worldwide per year and among U.S. individuals under age 35, trauma accounts for more deaths than all other illnesses combined. Inflammatory complications are directly responsible for about one-third of those deaths."

Hauser, whose laboratory studies focus on neutrophils, circulating white blood cells that can attack the body's organs, wanted to find out how neutrophils might be participating in this dangerous inflammatory cascade.

The mechanisms that underlie both SIRS and sepsis are rooted in the body's "innate immune" response. Unlike "acquired immunity," which develops over time, innate immunity is present from birth, ready to immediately respond whenever immune cells encounter molecular patterns typical of external pathogens such as bacteria or viruses. These "pathogen-associated molecular patterns," or PAMPS, are in turn, detected by pattern recognition receptor molecules (PRR).

"When an infection strikes, PAMPs activate PRR very rapidly, initiating a group of cellular responses collectively described as the 'Danger Response,'" explains Hauser. This response underlies both SIRS and sepsis, and can ignite early reactions to cell threats as well as act as an adjuvant for later acquired immune responses. However, as Hauser notes, infectious pathogens and PAMPs aren't the only cause of the Danger Response.

"Injured or necrotic tissues can activate very similar immune responses," he explains. "Blunt-force trauma can result in the death of significant amounts of tissue, as can burns, cancer chemotherapy, major surgeries and many other diseases. We wondered if tissues that die by such pathologic means, rather than via programmed cell death or apoptosis, were releasing into the body molecular debris not normally encountered by the immune system."

Some normally intra-cellular molecules can activate PRR, and when they do they are called Damage-Associated Molecular Patterns, or DAMPS. Hauser hypothesized that DAMPs might be triggering inflammatory responses after trauma in the same way that PAMPs triggered inflammation in the face of infection -- and that mitochondria might be ultimately responsible.

Mitochondria are structures within cells that burn nutritional energy sources using oxygen and convert it into the ATP that powers the cells. They function autonomously, having their own DNA which is separate and very different from the genetic material contained within the cell's nucleus, and their own machinery for protein synthesis. Because mitochondria share so many similarities with bacteria - including their method of reproduction, the molecular nature of their DNA and their synthesis of n-formylated proteins - it is believed that they were once free living bacterial saprophytes that survived by scavenging the waste products of eukaryotic cells. Over time mitochondria took up residence in the cell and became true symbionts, but many of their molecular signatures remained those of bacteria.

"Mechanical trauma disrupts cells, so we hypothesized that injury might be releasing mitochondria and their DAMPs into the circulatory system, activating immunity in the same way that infections do when they release PAMPS," explains Hauser.

To test this hypothesis, the investigators first assayed mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) from blood samples obtained from a large group of patients who had suffered multiple trauma. As predicted, they found that mtDNA levels were increased but surprisingly, they found that levels were often thousands-of-fold above normal levels.

Through a series of subsequent experiments, the researchers showed that mitochondrial peptides acted as classical G-protein coupled chemoattractants, activating white blood cells through the FPR1 receptor (a receptor that normally senses bacterial proteins) and associated downstream kinases. They similarly showed that mtDNA activates white blood cells through the PRR known as toll-like receptor 9 (TLR9 normally senses bacterial DNA) and its downstream kinases. Interaction of these two DAMPs and their PRRs work synergistically to activate neutrophils. The investigators also found that injection of mitochondria into rats caused peritonitis and reproduced the pulmonary and hepatic inflammation typical of traumatic SIRS.

"This study suggests that mitochondria - which can spill into the bloodstream following a physical injury -- look enough like the bacteria they originated from to elicit an immune response," notes Scott Somers, PhD, program director at the National Institute of General Medical Sciences. "This work offers important insight into why the body's response to physical trauma mirrors that of bacterial sepsis, and may lead to new strategies for treating severely injured patients."

Adds Hauser, "Since external injuries and events causing sterile tissue death seem to have just as much potential for causing SIRS as does infection, many of the conditions that we've traditionally treated with antibiotics may turn out to not be infections and may, in fact, require very different types of treatment. Going forward, we hope to collaborate with researchers who are working to identify the origins of inflammation in other clinical conditions."



https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_rele...m-irt030110.php
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  #17   ^
Old Sun, Mar-03-19, 09:42
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is online now
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Quote:
Adds Hauser, "Since external injuries and events causing sterile tissue death seem to have just as much potential for causing SIRS as does infection, many of the conditions that we've traditionally treated with antibiotics may turn out to not be infections and may, in fact, require very different types of treatment. Going forward, we hope to collaborate with researchers who are working to identify the origins of inflammation in other clinical conditions."


I know, it’s literally fundamental and opens a whole mansion of biological doors.

About 2011 it really started going, and what a wild ride.
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  #18   ^
Old Mon, Mar-04-19, 09:34
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GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
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Lots to better understand in this case. If non-infectious SIRS is caused by discarded mitochondria, how much of this is possibly an epigenetic response to poor lifestyle indiscretions over multiple generations? The quest to fix this with pharmaceuticals appears to have begun, but is there a more effective way to treat this holistically to positively impact future generations??? I'm skeptical as we tend to focus on treating symptoms rather than correct health conditions by changing the life environment and focusing on the broader picture.
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  #19   ^
Old Mon, Mar-04-19, 12:02
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5555589/

Quote:
Acute infections are associated with a set of stereotypic behavioral responses, including anorexia, lethargy, and social withdrawal. Although these so called sickness behaviors are the most common and familiar symptoms of infections, their roles in host defense are largely unknown. Here we investigated the role of anorexia in models of bacterial and viral infections. We found that anorexia was protective while nutritional supplementation was detrimental in bacterial sepsis. Furthermore, glucose was necessary and sufficient for these effects. In contrast, nutritional supplementation protected against mortality from influenza infection and viral sepsis, while blocking glucose utilization was lethal. In both bacterial and viral models, these effects were largely independent of pathogen load and magnitude of inflammation. Instead, we identify opposing metabolic requirements tied to cellular stress adaptations critical for tolerance of differential inflammatory states.


Anorexia here is just decreased appetite, they're not talking anorexia nervosa, but what might just be a healthful physiological response to pathological bacterial infection. A running theme with Valter Longo's fasting mimicking diet studies is regeneration of mitochondria and various stem cell and stem cell-like immature cells, with damaged stem cells and mitochondria being subject to autophagy or mitophagy to clear them out.

"Furthermore, glucose was necessary and sufficient for these effects" speaks volumes.

Quote:
Inhibition of the Ketogenic Program in Bacterial Inflammation, but not Viral Inflammation, Results in Mortality


Later subtitle. Anyways this all just suggests one more way a ketogenic diet or cycles of fasting may contribute to long-term health.
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  #20   ^
Old Wed, Mar-06-19, 15:40
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bkloots bkloots is offline
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Plan: LC--Atkins
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On the subject of mitochondria: I just watched a 20 minute interview posted on Diet Doctor. A researcher named Benjamin Bikman discusses the mitochondria in what we've called "brown fat" and "white fat"--among other things. The title of the talk is "Is Fear of Protein the new Fear of Fat?" Catchy.

Perhaps you can access it Here. As long as it is not behind the Member wall. I liked this guy.
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  #21   ^
Old Thu, Mar-07-19, 04:56
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WereBear WereBear is online now
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkloots
On the subject of mitochondria: I just watched a 20 minute interview posted on Diet Doctor. A researcher named Benjamin Bikman discusses the mitochondria in what we've called "brown fat" and "white fat"--among other things. The title of the talk is "Is Fear of Protein the new Fear of Fat?" Catchy.

Perhaps you can access it Here. As long as it is not behind the Member wall. I liked this guy.


It is behind the Member wall, but that's okay. Diet Doctor walks a tricky balance of getting the word out and keeping themselves afloat by making members happy

In fact, I'm figuring out how to do that myself I'm starting a book series, with the first one out now, to help support the bills that come with even a moderately popular website.

But yes, I would say there is, thanks to vegan propaganda, a "fear of protein." Meat is death, "you don't need much protein," and protein you need you can get from that colorful salad: there are dozens of them, and as a result, I see people feeding their small children nothing but Cheerios.
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  #22   ^
Old Thu, Mar-07-19, 08:27
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GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkloots
On the subject of mitochondria: I just watched a 20 minute interview posted on Diet Doctor. A researcher named Benjamin Bikman discusses the mitochondria in what we've called "brown fat" and "white fat"--among other things. The title of the talk is "Is Fear of Protein the new Fear of Fat?" Catchy.

Perhaps you can access it Here. As long as it is not behind the Member wall. I liked this guy.

Here are three Bikman videos addressing the topic along with protein consumption that should be accessible to all. The last one is a video podcast:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPL2RYilUms
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3fO5aTD6JU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsx03taW1Q0

Bikman is doing some relevant research and revealing clarifying and actionable information as we continue on our n=1 low carb/keto journeys.
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  #23   ^
Old Thu, Mar-07-19, 09:54
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
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Maybe protein is the new fat. Remember when people were saying sometimes, in the low carb community, that fat couldn't make you fat? That fat couldn't even be stored, unless you ate enough carbohydrate to bring insulin up etc. Some people anyways. I remember pointing out that not being able to store fat would look like a lipid storage disease, if you ate enough of it. And that the Inuit managed to have healthy fat pads without carbohydrate in their diet--not obesity, but obviously capable of accumulating body fat all the same. Now people are saying protein can't make you too fat, you can't eat too much meat, etc. I'm saying--I've done that. Not restricting protein I was still fairly fat, still had some issues that didn't go away until I addressed protein. There are no macros where the optimal intake is also the maximal. I realize that Bikman isn't saying this, just a little triggered this morning because there are people who are saying this, or being construed as saying this. Not here, maybe I should just be more careful where I go on facebook.
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  #24   ^
Old Thu, Mar-07-19, 10:13
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WereBear WereBear is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
I realize that Bikman isn't saying this, just a little triggered this morning because there are people who are saying this, or being construed as saying this. Not here, maybe I should just be more careful where I go on facebook.


It’s dangerous out there on social media!

Dr. Bernstein’s book has the tale of a woman whose carb counts were within bounds, but had fluctuating blood sugars. Turns out, she had an afternoon snack which was a whole head of iceberg lettuce, under the assumption that she could “get away with” bingeing on that because of its very low carb count.

Not so. There are stretch receptors in the intestine that will release insulin because they sense bulk.

Literally, no free lunch!
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  #25   ^
Old Thu, Mar-07-19, 12:03
CityGirl8 CityGirl8 is offline
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Plan: Protein Power, IF
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
Now people are saying protein can't make you too fat, you can't eat too much meat, etc. I'm saying--I've done that. Not restricting protein I was still fairly fat, still had some issues that didn't go away until I addressed protein. There are no macros where the optimal intake is also the maximal. I realize that Bikman isn't saying this, just a little triggered this morning because there are people who are saying this, or being construed as saying this. Not here, maybe I should just be more careful where I go on facebook.
I come to LC from the Protein Power perspective where there is an emphasis on getting adequate protein--which the Eades believed is far higher than the RDA. But lately, I've been hearing more and more about "moderate" protein. Don't eat too much protein or your body will turn it into glucose (keto). You don't need much protein if you're losing weight, your body has plenty to scavenge (Fung).

Then I read studies that older adults need more protein--at least 25% above the RDA, assuming you think the RDA is appropriate (Fung and keto), way more if you think the RDA is inadequate. And Amy Berger says:
Quote:
Of all the myths and misinformation I wish we could kill, strap to a block of concrete, and push off the side of a boat in very deep, shark-infested waters, the protein = sugar thing is close to the top. In the LCHF world, I see many under-eating protein, particularly when fat loss is the goal.
Frankly, it's all making my head spin. I don't know what the answer is, but it is for sure the next battlefront.
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  #26   ^
Old Thu, Mar-07-19, 12:35
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GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CityGirl8
I come to LC from the Protein Power perspective where there is an emphasis on getting adequate protein--which the Eades believed is far higher than the RDA. But lately, I've been hearing more and more about "moderate" protein. Don't eat too much protein or your body will turn it into glucose (keto). You don't need much protein if you're losing weight, your body has plenty to scavenge (Fung).

Then I read studies that older adults need more protein--at least 25% above the RDA, assuming you think the RDA is appropriate (Fung and keto), way more if you think the RDA is inadequate. And Amy Berger says:
Quote:
Of all the myths and misinformation I wish we could kill, strap to a block of concrete, and push off the side of a boat in very deep, shark-infested waters, the protein = sugar thing is close to the top. In the LCHF world, I see many under-eating protein, particularly when fat loss is the goal.
Frankly, it's all making my head spin. I don't know what the answer is, but it is for sure the next battlefront.


It is confusing, and the best that one can do is to go to your own n=1 and experiment with varying amounts of protein. I've added more protein without putting on weight or decreasing my presence of blood ketones; however, everyone responds differently. The correct amount of protein consumption has been a very active discussion on this forum, and people have discovered their own "sweet spot." One of the things Bikman has discovered is that the relative increase in glucose due to increased protein consumption is greater in those following a SAD than low carb. I won't take a position other than to discover what amount is right for me.
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  #27   ^
Old Thu, Mar-07-19, 12:53
dcc0455 dcc0455 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRB5111
I won't take a position other than to discover what amount is right for me.


Everyone should take this position. After hitting my goal, I spent about a year experimenting, following the gurus, and finding out for me, calories do matter, regardless if it is carbs, protein or fat. The idea that you cannot over eat fat did not work for me. Even though I still occasionally track, I no longer target specific macros. I seem to wind up with 65% fat, 30% protein and 5% carbs without trying.
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  #28   ^
Old Fri, Mar-08-19, 09:03
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bkloots bkloots is offline
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Plan: LC--Atkins
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In all my years (since early Atkins 1998) of "believing in", studying, and using LC principles, I've never been very good at the details. For years as a calorie counter, I tracked and tracked and tracked. Same with carbs in the beginning. The upshot? I hate counting stuff.

LC for me boils down (so to speak) to a few simple things: no sugar, no starch. (No "fast food" goes without saying). I run up against problems with alcohol and heavy cream and, to a certain extent, excessive snacking (nuts especially).

Having said all this, I also do not have a very good handle on what "works" and what doesn't for me. I'm not very good at the "eat when hungry and only when hungry" mantra. I have no idea how much protein (calculated from the ways I eat it as meat, cheese, eggs) goes in. I don't add extra fat, but I don't think much about the mayo, the butter, the coconut oil I use.

Right now I'm a good deal over my desired weight, from allowing the Creep to catch up with me for several years. But KETO strategy is familiar and comfortable and I'm going to do it consciously and conscientiously for a while.

Bottom line: Mindfulness is probably the key.

P. S. Inspiration helps, too. I just noticed that my membership at DietDoctor gets me into the Live Stream feed from the LC Conference happening now in Denver. I've listed some talks I want to see, and hope I'll be able to make it.
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  #29   ^
Old Fri, Mar-08-19, 10:09
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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The protein to glucose thing--I agree with people like Bikman and Amber O'Hearn that it's overblown, and for a lot of people, not even an issue. Amber has championed the idea of gluconeogenesis being demand, rather than supply driven. I agree to some extent, but not quite, there.

Take a person and feed them nothing, glucose metabolism gets progressively lower, more and more brain metabolism is fueled by ketones. Gluconeogenesis is largely a matter of regenerating glucose from lactate to fuel red blood cells, it's recycling rather than generating new glucose. No question if you go low enough, glucose metabolism decreases. Same with a very ketogenic diet, high fat ratio like what I eat.

Amber relies on studies looking at people eating considerably more than no protein ketogenic diets, compared to people eating just standard high carb diets. Or people who have just fasted overnight, eating cottage cheese. And other studies that aren't quite designed to find the point between not eating at all, and a higher protein or even just a standard diet, where glucose metabolism starts to decrease.

The problem here, if you're considering whether something is supply-driven, you have to also consider whether it's saturable. I am no more likely to drown in a 2000 foot deep swimming pool than a 1000 foot deep one. But it's much more likely in a ten foot deep pool than one that's one foot deep. If we were looking at protein intake versus muscle mass--an example there, at 30 grams of protein a day, I'd likely wind up with less muscle than at 70 grams a day. But 400 grams probably won't make me any more muscular than 200 grams. Diminishing returns. At some point, more protein likely won't mean more glucose, but at some starting point lower down, it likely will. Which is why I don't really advocate what I do for everyone--the level I keep my protein at doesn't obviously hurt my lean mass any, but I can't know what it will do for anybody else, I do think it comes down to personal experience.
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  #30   ^
Old Fri, Mar-08-19, 10:16
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WereBear WereBear is online now
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
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I started ketosis 2 months ago now, and I'm still tracking. Even though I eat the same dozen things over and over

But this is totally new to me, and I want data.
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