Hi. I hope I'm not posting too many questions (as I've not been a member long) I'm doing low carb and on no medications. Had a FBG of 171 when diagnosed and an Ha1c of 8.1 -- Since Nov. 12th -- started LC -- BG runs an average of about 100 (according to my meter) -- usually 88 - 95 in the morning and never seems to get above 105 after meals.

Would some of you type 2 diabetics let me know your thoughts about breakfast? Some do a "mini-fast" like Dr. Whitaker advocates where they don't eat till noon, then they eat two meals a day. That actually would be cool as I have a hard time sometimes coming up with ideas for three low carb meals. But I'm wondering if that would be unwise for diabetics.

Any thoughts (and forgive my constant questions -- trying to adjust)

Questions are good. Dr Jason Fung, a nephrologist in Toronto finds that intermittent fasting is one the best ways to restore the " normal pulsile rhythm" of insulin and therefore lower bllod sugar and reduce or eliminate meds for his diabetic patients. His website www.intensivedietarymanagement.com has many hours of videos addressing diabetes and overweight. I highly recommend you watch one or two per day till you've taken them all in. Then read his blog posts in chronological order (they are listed in reverse chrono, but it's confusing to read them that way as they build on one another).

I'm not diabetic, but pre. I've found skipping breakfast 2-3x/week is the best way for me to normalize blood sgars, esp. fasting.

Just beginning to read about the fasting idea, etc and this is of course only anecdotal, but I skipped breakfast yesterday, check my BG before eating and it was 70! I've never had a reading that low! Maybe there is something to it.

I wish it worked that way for me! I'd really rather skip breakfast, but the longer I go without eating - after my lowest BG - the higher my BG goes. So IF is out for me - at least for now.

I found after I have eated LC for a while and my body adjusts to the stable BS that I can skip breakfast without an issue because my BS is always stable anyways.

Thanks all -- I am wondering if the interm. fast like Dr. Fung would be best (fasting every other day) or the mini fast everyday (skipping breakfast) as Dr. Whitaker suggests. I already do morning excercise as Whitaker suggests anyway. I think I'll try skipping breakfast tommorrow and see how it goes. I'll check my BG first thing - then right before mid-day meal. I'm on no medications so that won't be messed up (just some supplements).

Anyone else with experience in this please post.

From Dr. Fung's website: Type 2 diabetes is an entirely curable disease. However, taking medications will not cure the disease. Only dietary management has a hope of reversing diabetes.

Interesting. I think in common language/understanding, the word "cure" means permanently ending a disease. Dr. Fung states diabetes is "entirely curable". It is not. You go back to eating sweets and starches and *boom* there are your diabetic blood sugars again. Because you are NOT cured.

I take issue with his statement: "taking medications will not cure the disease. Only dietary management has a hope of reversing diabetes." I'm not even sure I would go that far (using the term "reversing"). It is the only hope of controlling diabetes without medication.

LC is a great blood sugar management tool, but I think it is unethical to claim it's is a cure for diabetes...unless 'cure' means temporary, conditional relief of symptoms.

I'm still going to read around on his website; that just happened to be the first thing I read.

Actually, I agree with you that dietary management is NOT a cure. I think of it as putting the disease in remission.

However, according to Dr Fung, meds are not a cure either. The medical take on diabetes is that it is inevitably a progressive disease. If you continue to eat a SAD diet and you go on, say metformin, it will work for a while, then you may need another medication and another until eventually you need some insulin, then more. This is what he is reacting to when he says he can cure patients with diabetes - by reducing their carbs, and having them IF, he can take them off insulin and often other meds. He contends he can arrest development of the disease with dietary modification.

He is also reacting to the use of bariatric surgery to cure diabetes. His contention is that bariatric surgery works because food intake is so limited that it imitates fasting. I have a friend whose husband heads a diabetes research institute and according to him there is a bit more to it than that (that the surgery removes or modifies glands that secrete hormones associated with hunger and satiety).

He has a couple of blog posts where he talks about how LC diets are not the solution for diabetes. Eventually it is revealed that he is defining Atkins as the unlimited steak and bacon and brie version of Atkins, what I call Urban Legend Atkins. He is trying to get across the point that most people cannot fully control blood sugars while eating large amounts of meat/ protein. Based on my own experience, I would agree with that.

If you can get past those points, his videos are really excellent. Most of his videos are directed at doctors and med students who are still buying into the Low Fat paradigm. Keep that in mind when you watch him and realize his thinking aligns more closely with those of us who accept LCHF. I definitely think the good in his message far outweighs the bad.

Dr Fung recommends a number of different fasting times, that depend on your health, weight loss goals, schedule. Under the patient tab on his website he has fasting guidelines for alternate day 24 hour fast, 36 hour, etc. but he has also said in one of his lectures that maintenance could be skipping/delaying breakfast everyday. Find what works for you to control BG, fits into your life, and know that IF should fit into your daily life and allow you to enjoy social occasions.
I was able to do both fasts in the summer; 24 hr alternate day fast eating a good dinner with my husband every night, and on "eating days" having coconut oil in morning coffee, exercising in pool, then eating first meal around noon.

..........

One thing to note about Dr. Fung is that he mentions treating his diabetic patients with the same old ADA/drug methods for some 20 years. (He really doesn't seem that old, does he?) So, he is a recent convert to using methods of treating the disease with diet and fasting. It will be interesting to see how his ideas and methods evolve over time.

Hey, I love the 'Urban Legend Atkins' expression too.

Hi again. I tried skipping breakfast for a few days now and I like it. I don't seem to get too hungry (of course I excercise in the morning). My BG was 87 fasting (if that's accurate) this mornig and 82 right before noon when I ate. It does go back up a little throught the day. Today 93 four hours later then 90 after evening meal (had ACV also).
I read some of Dr. Fung etc. but I was wondering if I could continue to skip breakfast (mini-fast as Dr. Whitaker calls it) and once or twice a week do an evening to evening fast as Liz said she did? I wonder if that would be too much? I have only been doing LC this time for two months. However I usually can go without eating fairly easily without being lightheaded etc.

Have any of you routinley skipped breakfast and also incorporated a longer fast once in a while or does a person have to choose one or the other?

I read the book and I think the breakfast thing is only important if you are taking insilin, either time released or after a meal.

Whited, as I mentioned in my previous post, Dr Fung has recommended a number of versions of fasting on his patient resources and in his lectures. I combined them for two months and felt fine, it was not "too much". He seems to encourage that you find what schedule works for you and your lifestyle. Dr Westman encourages IF as well (the support group jokes about his lion on the savannah talk) i.e. Eat only when Hungry, stop eating when you are full. Be like the lion.

A recent observation: I have been taking a two month long break from IF and VLC, but re-started Dec 26. Fasted all day without any hunger (2 coffees with cream, 1 T CO, bone broth mid-afternoon) felt great, like I had never been away from it. 3 days later had to fly cross-country unexpectedly due to a family medical emergency, spent 6 days completely stressed and totally off plan eating crap, flew back and did another IF day without any hunger, to the point I forgot the broth yesterday afternoon. Where before if I went off LC it would take a few days to adjust back to the style of eating and not have cravings, I am amazed that my body seems perfectly happy to fast all day with no hunger whenever. Just had a regular meal last night with veg and a big salad for fiber, not hungry this morning, again a coffee with CO and going to exercise now, and will just eat whenever as this should be an 'eating' day.

That's great to hear you are able to pick up fasting again so quickly, JEY. I've been away for a wwk, eating pretty compliantly, but not perfectly. I intend to retun to IF on Wednesday. I look forward to the feeling it brings me (till I hit my hunger wall, then I want food). Good. Food. Now.

I hope all is OK with your family.

Whited, I 've not been able to do an evening to evening fast yet and i get good results just skipping breakfast. It was probably JEY or perhaps Hellistile that you are thinking of.