Thank you. This is the most important point, as the many manufactured "foods" sold today that are considered healthy (I include bread and other grains and fat concoctions) are thought to be the pleasures of eating that people shouldn't have to give up, even to the point where they're touted as healthy. Funny world, dangerous advice, expensive health issues that are now so common we no longer notice the real dangers because we have forgotten our points of comparison before the food pyramid.

IF they eat less carbs, then I could see it assisting with improving insulin resistance.

Just losing weight, as I understand it (not a doctor or medical professional), is not enough to fix insulin resistance. There are plenty of people who are not overweight who are insulin resistant. The number of those in my circles of friends and acquaintances keeps increasing.

(JLx - I'm not picking on you - I promise. It's just that you've written stuff I've thought about and have an opinion. )

I think a number of people who used to be on this site are still sticking to this WOE. I come and go. Not every time I go is because I've paused this WOE. Sometimes, I just have too many other time commitments and this site sucks me in. Or, I'm back in the office and can't be on here during the day. Sometimes, yes, it's because I paused this WOE. Some people leave because they find other support groups.

I've often thought about why people don't stick to LC - and I have very little doubt that a lot of people don't stick to it. For me, it's not hard under two sets of circumstances. I kicked butt at keeping LC during the pandemic lockdown - when I was 100% alone and did not go out or socialize. Also, I kick butt at it when I have a social network (at least a couple of people) I hang out with in person and have encouragement. When I struggle, it's because I get tired of rejecting social pressure. For example, my employer provides lunch at least once per month and it's not LC. I get tired of saying no. I go to a party at a friend's house and there's nothing LC. I get tired of saying no.

I suspect more people would stick with LC if it had more support from the government and medical profession. I know a number of people who lost weight and became healthier eating LC. Then they were told by their doctor that it's dangerous and they need to switch back to LF. How disheartening. I think back to when I was growing up and the dogma switched to low fat. A lot of people did not stick with it right away and those that did, struggled until it became so prevalent, "everybody" was doing it. I vividly remember switching from whole mile to no-fat milk. We hated it. But there was such a PR campaign about LF, we were pressured into it and we ended up adjusting. Consider how people who wanted to eat LF would have felt before the government stuck their nose into it and started pushing LF. I bet those folks would have faced the struggle that LCer's face.

Also, LC is a continuum. At one end we have VLC (carnivore, ketovore, keto) which works best for some (like me). Then the continuum slides to the right ... LC, moderate LC, higher LC, and eventually people exit LC and get back to SAD. With support from the government, medical profession, and community, I think the majority of people could stick to LC - maybe not VLC but under 150 carbs per day, which is still LC.

I'm not a scientist and I have no data. Just personal experience, thoughts, and opinions. This makes sense to me.

Agreed! It's a societal issue: take a pill and eat what you want. Similar to people I know who eat to their diabetes medication.

Yes, I agree with that. I'm losing weight quit well on 100-120 carbs and suspect a lot of other people would too. Mark Sisson had that on a graph I remember from years back as the "weight loss zone". Of course, that too is pretty hard for people, who are simply invested in eating a lot of carbs and can't imagine another way. I have been in a weight loss club in person for quite a few years and everyone still eats sugar! That shocked me at first coming from the LC community, because I thought that the calorie counters would also be cutting it out.

I think the emphasis on nutrients and protein would be helpful to other people too, if they got the message. I struggled for years with always feeling like I wanted to eat "more" and then would just get burned out on the effort, give up and eventually became unable to psych myself up any more. But substituting some of the fat I was eating on lc with protein has made all the difference.

But again, despite my weight loss success - 51 lbs in 4 months - no one in my weight loss club is interested in this method. One person keeps saying how she needs to eat more protein because it really helps her and then continues to not do it. She's a stress eater and can't give up the carbs and I can completely relate. But not having those cravings in the first place is what is actually less stressful and eating more protein can do that for her, by her own admission!

This club and the range of human behavior exhibited around weight issues and food has been an eye opener for me and gives me an idea of what doctors go through. Such as that doctor who was fully supportive of lc diets for diabetics but who said, "But no one sticks to it". That was undoubtedly his experience.

One other woman in my club has constant problems with her gut, with her bowels and food intolerances but simply won't give up her plant-based diet. She follows a doctor who's written books about hypothyroid because she has that problem too, but rejects her advice to eat beef.

"there's nowt so queer as folk"

About 5 years back my neighbor, who weighed over 400 lbs, asked me to talk to her weightloss group (Overeaters Anonymous I believe) since she knew I had lost over 100 lbs and kept it off. I went to the group and spoke about low carb eating and my journey. Everyone there who responded to what I had said talked about how they just couldn't eat that way. My former neighbor also, despite her initial enthusiasm, couldn't follow the plan and still weighs over 400 lbs last I knew. It's really sad.

I'm actually kind of surprised they even allowed you talk about a specific way of eating.


I once went to an Overeater's Anonymous meeting at the urging of a friend who went to their meetings regularly. They mentioned "trigger foods", but no food (trigger or not) was ever mentioned by name, not even something as innocuous as lettuce. The thought process was that one person's perfectly ok food might be another person's trigger food, and set someone off on a binge.

In retrospect (this was probably almost 30 years ago), and having been back on LC for close to 20 years now, I suspect that almost all of their trigger foods involved carbs, but since no one there actually talked about which foods were trigger foods, there was no way to know.



As far as them not wanting to give up their carby foods - I think a lot of OA members would find a huge amount of control in their eating if they gave up carby foods, especially if they recognize even one kind of carb as a trigger food.


If for instance they recognize that they have no control over potato chip consumption, they might give up potato chips, but still eat baked potatoes. Maybe they can control baked potato consumption better than chips because baked potatoes aren't as addictive, but the the sheer number of carbs in that giant baked potato (or sandwich on Whole Wheat Bread, or the bowl of plain cheerios) could set off the craving for the smaller number of carbs in the chips that they think of as their trigger food. The chips taste better than any of the "healthy" carbs they're eating, so they're more drawn to eat chips, so of course the chips are what they're going to really lose control over - but my guess is that it was actually the constant consumption of "healthy" carbs that set off the craving for what they think of as their trigger food to begin with.





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On other topics in this thread...



As far as wandering away from here, this was one of the first places I found when I went back on LC in the early 00's. When I've been absent on here for months at a time, there's various reasons. I've wandered off to other LC boards along the way - the various LC forums I've been on all have different personalities, and sometimes one forum's group of members is more what you need for support at the moment, or the people at one forum just click better than the ones at another forum, or they just happen to have more ideas for sticking with it under certain circumstances.



When I was working a physically exhausting job for several years, I cut way back on all forums, especially posting on forums. There just weren't enough hours in the day.



I would always come back here to try to keep up with what's going on in terms of LC in the research and media sections, although I rarely posted at all, at least in part because I don't understand the research study jargon (I always think it means the opposite of what it means - I'm the same way with legal documents)


Still - I've stayed LC all this time. Not necessarily very low carb or keto, and my binging tendencies (which is why I ended up at that Overeater's Anonymous meeting all those years ago) rears it's ugly head from time to time, particularly with trigger foods such as nuts, which is why I'm far from goal and may never get there.



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I still have concerns about the new weight loss drug though, mainly because doctor's don't tend to recommend LC (since as one doctor mentioned here admitted, people just don't stick to it), so if they give those patients a diet plan to go with the new drug, it'll most likely be a "healthy" LF and low cal plan.



If that's the case, I wonder if carbs are the real reason why appetite comes roaring back as soon as they're off the drug? If that's why it will need to be a lifetime drug (even if they're avoiding junk food), and what it mostly does it to suppress the incessant craving for junk foods, in my opinion it could certainly cause the cravings to return with a vengeance when the drug is discontinued.

That is my thought as well. The article doesn't give any indication about what watching what one eats equates to in the people quoted in the story. It would not be surprising that cravings would return if their diet wasn't changed.

I also wonder if it's possible to still overeat while taking the drug if one is not highly motivated to make changes. I know I can eat highly palatable foods even when I'm full. even lower carb ones (nuts and steak, I'm looking at you!).

I would think the drug could be promising if coupled with a long-term low carb diet. It is a revelation to experience a lack of cravings, whether from a medication or going low carb. I've never been able to convince anyone that they will find it much easier to resist tempting foods if they can just stick to low carb for a good 3 weeks. Not even my husband who has watched me do this since 2014.

As for who remains here, I will drift away as my carbs creep up a bit. Then I come back to help me get back on track. Since 2014, I've never abandoned low carb, but I've had periods eating around 75-100g of carbs per day just be having a few bites of this or that. That level is enough for me to gain weight, drive cravings, drive up blood glucose and generally make me feel lousy. It is that lousy feeling that keeps me from going completely off the rails. But if I had never gone low carb, I would never had recognized how horrible the carbs made me feel. I would continue to think that feeling is normal.

This was similar to why I quit LC twice in the 70's. I was sick and tired of being the one person who couldn't eat what everyone else was eating.
If I go out to eat, the choice of restaurant depends on whether or not they have something on the menu I could eat without needing to pick through the piles of starch on the plate to get to the few little bits that weren't starch. (That's after I eliminate the menu items that would be ok if they weren't served with sugary sauces) That simply gets old after a while that everyone else needs to make huge concessions on where to eat based on what I can eat. I'd rather not even go out to eat than go through that on a regular basis. I definitely get tired of saying NO, when I come to the almost inevitable realization that nothing on that menu other than a ditching the bun on a plain burger will work for me, and I can make a much better burger at home.

I haven't actually done any calculations on how many carbs people generally consumed in the 50's and 60's (when most everyone was in a normal weight range), but my guess is that it wasn't anywhere near the currently recommended 300 g daily, probably more in the range of 100-150 g, unless you worked a very physically demanding job. 100 g would be approx 33 g per meal, and 150 g daily would also allow two 25 carb snacks (assuming you ate a snack, which most people didn't do on a regular basis back then), or a 50 carb dessert.
I know that when I was growing up, we had one starchy component to meals - potatoes (about 1/2 cup or less) OR bread (2 regular size slices) so approx 20-25 net carbs for those, rarely ever having both at the same meal. (macaroni or noodle based dishes were rarities) Our "vegetables" were generally starchier choices (peas, green beans, occasionally carrots or corn), but we still didn't get more than about 10-15 g net from those. Dessert (when we had it) was only served after the evening meal, and would have generally been 50 carbs or less, because our desserts were small. Sometimes mom served canned fruit. The canned fruit was in light syrup which wasn't completely drained, but as a kid I don't recall ever actually eating the syrup, except what would stick to the fruit. She'd cut more servings out of say for instance a cake mix cake than the box stated, and she'd frost 2 cakes with one can of frosting which was meant to only frost one cake. So we definitely grew up with comparatively low carbs.
I suspect that most people back then ate similar amounts of carbs - which would be considered to be relatively LC now, even though the carbs still weren't low enough for me - I was always a chubby kid, had hypoglycemia (hyperinsulin) from birth. Once they figured out what was wrong with me (I was 19 by that time) I had to cut way back on the carbs to get my weight under control, but then I was up against the issues of trying to be socially acceptable when eating with others, which is what led to quitting LC twice during the 70's.

Assuming the reason their appetite and weight comes roaring back so quickly is due to eating too many carbs, perhaps if they'd start them on a lower calorie version of what they already eat, then slowly over time switch them over to a LC diet, combined with educating them about why LC will work better for them to keep their weight loss under control, they would have time to get used to eating LC. Hopefully that would also give them time to get used to all the social caveats of eating LC in a very high carb world, so that they don't decide it's just to hard to do and give up.
That way the drug would end up being a relatively short term tool used to re-train their taste buds and eating habits, and have a much better chance of long term success.
I'm not sure the drug company would be in favor of that though, due to the fact that many potential patients might realize that if they can just tough it out through a couple of weeks of induction flu, they'll end up eating the way they'd eventually need to eat on the weight loss drug anyway.
Then again, so many people tend to be extremely reluctant to give up their carbs, so there's also the potential repeat patients taking the drug - those who have good weight loss success on it, but after the allowed 2 years end up regaining quickly, and after a certain amount of time (or regain) they're allowed to go back on it again, rinse and repeat. Or they could get approval to just stay on it forever, and not need to go off of it after 2 years.

I think this is 90% of the backsliding.

I remember a cookout I was invited to as a friend of a friend. I ate a couple of bun-less hot dogs. EVERY salad was based on pasta. Every dessert was sugar and flour. Even the relish was sweet!

Which I remember because it's extreme. Anywhere I met friends for dinner I can find something to eat. But at such times we go to places with a real chef in the back.

It's almost impossible to manage this in places with corporate chains. All their food is prefab and I've been brought a torn off label by a server in attempts to order something. I don't want to put me and my friends through that.

There's another thing I've discovered that has a chilling effect on outside eating. Once I look at the menu and pare away everything I won't be eating, it's terribly overpriced.

Even now, with thrift on my mind, and prices up, we still buy the cheapest versions of real food. Because it's still cheaper than the drugs/carbs combo that's the alternative. And healthier.

I now think of people and carbs the way Germany thinks of their Autobahn. Here's the place with no rules.

But at least you need a license to drive.

This reminds me a little of the big Holiday Dinner that the grocery store would provide for employees as their "Christmas party". Even on the occasions when they had it catered, there would be chafing dish after chafing dish of starchy or sugary food. The meats were swimming in starchy gravy or sugary sauces. Of course there were things like mashed potatoes, and sweet potato casserole. Even the green salad was already coated in a sugary dressing. Literally NOTHING suitable for a LC diet. (I'd bring my lunch with me every day, so I'd just eat that)

DH loves to go out to diner type restaurants and family restaurants - basically places that are considered to be "homestyle" restaurants. In an effort to get me to go with him, he'll tell me they have a HUGE menu, and surely I can find something on that menu that I can eat.



Most places have their menu online these days, so I go through the menu, and I'm sure you can imagine what I find. There's a list of full dinner platters, a list of sandwiches, lists of salad, appetizers, side dishes, and of course desserts. But even at the places that really are doing "home cooking" they're almost all starch and sugar. Even the choices for side dishes are mostly starch and sugar, with easily almost half of their choices being different ways of preparing potatoes, and the rest are pasta based sides, sweet relishes, applesauce, a couple of different kinds of corn side dishes, and glazed carrots. There are some places that have no green vegetables at all on the menu.


I've tried to get these places to serve the sauces and starches on the side or eliminate them altogether, and as they take my order, they say they will do that... but when it comes to the table, either it turns out that oops, they couldn't actually do that, or even if they eliminated the added starchy/sugary sauce, the meat and veggies were already seasoned or marinated using something sugary/starchy because I can taste it.

On the rare occasions that I've managed to get that type of restaurant to eliminate the pasta/potatoes/bread/starchy gravies/sugary sauces, what I end up with is about 2/3 cup of vegetables and meat on the platter sized plate that was supposed to hold a huge meal - and you can be sure that far less than half of that is meat, because that's the most expensive part of the meal. If we didn't already know that they fill out the plate with all that starchy and sugary stuff because it's cheap, that alone should make it obvious.

Even at some nicer (not ritzy, just nicer) locally owned restaurants I've ordered things like chicken Caesar salads, and asked them to leave the croutons off of it. The croutons are almost always already in the salad, so I pick those out, The amount of chicken varies from a few tiny slivers of chicken to a couple of ounces of chicken - still not enough to count as a meal, especially for what they're charging.

More often than not, I go back to ordering the default hamburger patty, which I need to order as a hamburger without the bun. (Sometimes they hold back the bun, sometimes not - which is why I don't order a cheeseburger, which would be somewhat more filling, but if the cheese is on there, it'll stick to the bun that the cook automatically slapped on top, so I lose the cheese when I remove the bun)

To point out the ridiculousness of the entire situation, my burger patty usually costs as much (if not more) than DH's platter loaded with starch and sugar.


If I can possibly help it, it's just not worth it to go out to eat.

Seconded, for the most part, especially fast food.

We love breakfast, and that's worth it. I can grab it to-go from a good local place when I'm running errands and have it at home. I'm getting better, but cooking takes energy. And it's the best value eating out.

The other exception is like when my aunt takes me out for my birthday. Steak and double green veg and a real salad is great on a balcony overlooking the water. Special occasions can still be special.

Given my DH's preference for homestyle restaurants, I just avoid those when possible, and we don't tend to ever go to really nice places.




However, when we visit family, they live so far away (one side of the family is 8 hours from here) that it's a given we'll need to eat out along the way.



I don't have any real urgent dietary restrictions (thank goodness) other than avoiding carby stuff, so there are a few places that I'll eat when we travel like that:



I will eat at Five Guys, because at least there I can get a "burger in a bowl", with as many of their low carb toppings as I like, and I know that they're not going to stick a bunch of starchy and sugary stuff in with it.


I've eaten LC at Chipotle too, but it's been quite a few years ago - I just googled and it seems they now have keto bowls, and you can change out or add different kinds of meat, add some guacamole and sour cream as well as some fajita veggies. That's a travel meal option that I'd be ok with too.


I've never been to Jimmy John's, but they have un-wiches - sandwiches wrapped in lettuce instead of bread. That could be satisfying and LC friendly.



About the only other restaurant food I'll go for is pizza, preferably with a lot of meaty toppings and extra cheese. But I'll only eat pizza because I pick the toppings off of it to eat and leave the crust behind. The crust tastes positively gross to me (like library paste) after being on LC all these years.



I don't know if there's any other LC friendly quick meal places out there - those are just the ones I happen to know about.



I'll go to steak places too, but that's definitely not fast food.

Yes! I put my pizza toppings on eggs these days. Our local pizza place is REALLY good and they have thin GF crusts, and I can do that when I go out with friends. But I wind up scraping off the tops anyway because it doesn't do that much for me

I've traveled a lot in NY, and we have reliable coffee, cold cuts, and pork rinds in the convenience stores. But I know when I venture further, things get different.

And meals? I tend to gut a subway sandwich if all else fails. If I don't mind being messy, whole new worlds open up

Unwiches are very good! I was pleasantly surprised the first time I had one. The lettuce is Romaine, nice big, crisp pieces full of whatever you ordered. They use Hellman's mayo only and they have a complete nutritional breakdown on their website for all their sandwiches. They're quite substantial as is, depending on what you choose, of course, but you can also add extra meat, cheese, etc.