And some unanswered questions, I'd really like to hear the answers to

1. The many elite gurus.

Ok Duchaine is one.
2. How weight training on an empty stomach is superior

For fat burning purposes yes it is. This lady on here is not concerned about muscle gain. I have talked to a few people. Of course you don't know them. It works. For the elite bodybuilder that would cause a loss in muscle most likely. But on this board most don't have much experience.
3. How does decreasing carb intake on off days increase insulin resistance, and why does increased insulin resistance result in greater anabolic activity?

I guess I rephrased that wrong. You do know that carb loading deals with insulin. When you go long peroids without any sugar going into your veins your insulin sensitivity goes up. I guess I should have said sensitivity. Sorry.

4. People that are insulin resistant produce lots of insulin since their bodies are resistant to its effects. Do you think this is a good thing?

Same as above.
5. Your best condition is what?

5'9.5"~265~20%

That was when I was 28 7 years ago. I wasn't concerned about anything other than gaining mass. Taking insulin gave me the extra 10 lbs in 3 weeks without any fat gain.

The point is for a woman with little experience in the field I would have her workout first thing in the morning on a empty stomache if she was wanting to burn fat the fastest. Works for everyone I talk to that does it. They all tell me they burn fat better this way. Just like if your going to do cardio for fat burning first thing on empty stomache is best.

Remember I think your confusing this whole thing out of proportion.

For lean mass gains and fat loss for her on a empty stomache I would say is a go.

For muscle gains and some fat gain yes eat before you lift first thing in morning.

Big difference. Sorry, but one person on this message board is not going to change my mind when I have several people doing the same thing and getting better results on empty stomache than not.

One thing I am not perfect and of course your not as well. What works for some doesn't always work for others. But I know what works for my body and my wifes and a few other friends.

She's doing cardio 5 days a week, and it's all steady-state, from the look of things. She's also only lifting two days a week (understandable, if she's trying to lift EMPTY it would feel like hell), and only sometimes doing the depletion workout:


I couldn't possibly lose weight on this scheme. It's no wonder amyella is having trouble. Too much cardio, not enough weights, inappropriate timing of food with training from the little bit I see here.

...Except that it's not working for her (which is why she's here), and she implied in her gym log that she's feeling burnt out. Sounds like a train wreck to me...

Originally Posted by amyella
Saturday: carb up. Mostly cereals, pasta, fruit, the occassional cupcake.
Sunday: lift Upper body empty stomach plus 30-40 min cardio (this gets me into ketosis the fastest)
Monday: lift Lower body empty stomach plus 30-40 min cardio
Tues: 45 min cardio
Wed: am abs class 30 min, 45 min cardio later
Thur: off
Frid: am abs class sometimes depletion workout/cardio later (if I have the strength)


I couldn't possibly lose weight on this scheme. It's no wonder amyella is having trouble. Too much cardio, not enough weights, inappropriate timing of food with training from the little bit I see here.

Why do you think it is not enough weights to lose fat. I mean you only need to lift each body part once very 7 days to build muscle. As long as she is training each bodypart 1 per week it is fine. After all she is looking to lose fat. Bodyopus is basically the style she is training. I do agree though that on friday she needs to carb load immidiately after a depletion workout.

That could be the main problem. I lose 2 lbs of fat a week doing the carbup on friday. I also never do the diet for more than 2 weeks at a time either. Two long and my body adjusts.

Never mind, muscle gain. What about muscle loss? Oh, you don't think anyone would lose muscle training on an empty stomach right? From where do BCAAs come from when they fufill up to 15% of energy requirements.



You do realize that a ketogenic diet over time does not increase insulin sensitivity, but rather decreases it right?



You're not saying that a preworkout meal is going to lead to 'some fat gain' are you?

What is the difference between lean mass gains and muscle gains?

I think that she needs to take a week off and recover. Body needs rest. I would like to know what time she gets up in the morning and her times of meals and when she goes to bed. But I do think she needs to tell us so much more. Maybe she could also tell us how intesne she lifts. I am a very firm believer that the heavier weights are a must with less reps. And then do a drop set on the last one. Say a weight you can get out for 6 reps and then drop in half and do as many as you can.

She won't put on much lean mass if she's lifting AND dieting. What it WILL do for her is lean her out. I stopped relying on cardio and swithed my focus to heavier and more intense lifting to drop the 40-odd pounds of fat I've lost in the last three years. Long, slow cardio sessions with very little lifting may work for some folks, but they never worked for me, and they're not working for amyella either.

Thunder I am not going to respond to you anymore in this thread. Your not 100% correct her either. Just because you have a so called degree doesn't make you 100% correct. You can gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. I know I do it all the time.

Your wrong by saying that people will lose muscle if they lift on a empty stomache. If that was the case then everyone would lose muscle doing so. Just like the myth that you cant gain muscle while dieting. That is wrong too. Maybe for somone who has many years of training under their belts like you. Or somone who hasn't had a break from lifting. The beginner can gain muscle while dieting and lifting on a empty stomache. I know as I did for 2 years straight with my friend and wife. So 3 out of 3 is good enough for me to say that your not correct in this case. Have fun. I will post pics in about 3-4 months.

I guess you believe Dan Duchaine didn't know squat either. Your basically saying that in this thread.

I think if she did a better job on her carb up she would do much better.

I average 8 lbs on my carbup. Much tighter and fuller muscles than before I start the diet. Also much stronger as well. Bodyopus was the only diet that I truly gained alot of muscle mass while losing fat. I am basically doing that now except eating all natural peanut butter and protein powder and sometimes skipping the ANPB for flax oil. One thing I do know is that if you carb load without doing a depletion workout you can really screw up your results. I am willing to be money that if she did a depletion workout friday morning and then started to carb load by eating every 2 hours for the next 36 hours she would lose more fat. She would be stronger too and that would yeild more muscle gains and faster metabolism.

I agree with you here that she's not doing CKD correctly, and that's why she's not getting good results from it.

But this part:


Thunder has an ACTUAL degree, which is neither here nor there. I have two science degrees, for what it's worth. Who cares.

But where are you getting that anyone suggested that you can't gain muscle and lose fat at the same time? I just re-read this thread carefully, and I guess I'm missing it. This has been MY point in emphasizing more weight training - it speeds this process. You can't put on mass OPTIMALLY while losing fat, but you certainly can gain SOME muscle doing so. And it'll speed up fat loss while you're dieting.

The only problem with more weight training is that then how would she be able to get into ketosis in 2 days and have a depletion workout on friday? Granted the first few times I did my keto diet this year I went 10 days straight in ketosis so I was able to lift every other day after I got into ketosis and then have two days rest before doing a full body depletion workout for a massive carb load.

The massive carb load will allow for two good workouts in a row to get your body in ketosis. I always like to do my upper body the first day when I am fresh and then the legs the next day. I would also suggest for anyone who has trouble doing lots of sets and reps to just lower the volume and up the intensity. Nothing wrong with screaming while doing a set. LOL. I hate doing reps. Too harsh. Lift big and get big. Much easier.

Well, dunno about you, but I get back into ketosis in ONE DAY, every single time.

I'd do legs first myself - the larger muscles burn off more blood sugar, and plus, that way the leggies get a harder workout with more reps, which is generally desirable for women.

And I'm definitely with you on the reps. I actually just suggested this to her in her gym log. Go shorter and heavier, especially for keto workouts.

You must not carb load that heavy then. I am sure I would get back into ketosis much faster if I didn't do such an extreme carb load. This is the amount of carbs I load with:

First 4 meals=105 grams dextrose
next 4 meals=80 grams from instant mashed potatos
next 4 meals=65 grams from corn flakes
next 8 meals=65 grams from pasta

My wife does 2/3 of that and she weighs 140lbs and it works great.

I never get into ketosis until I am done working out every muscle group. The amount of glycogen stored in my muscles with that kind of carb load makes it impossible. I think doing my upper body first is best as there is much more glycogen in my upper body than my lower body. Legs are always painful anyhow so the second day is best for me. I am in ketosis now and I also worked out heavier and more intense on sun and mon than I ever have. I am in pain. Hoping to feel better in the morning. GOing to do legs in the morning. I actually did legs on sun because that is the way it worked into my lifting schedule. So lower body tomorrow and upper body on friday. Then carb load on sunday and mon. Then lift agin on wed. Kind of overtraining if you ask me. But oh well. Will then probably go high carbs all week long and then go low carbs about 150 grams per day. Will keep protein at 300 grams per day.

It doesn't ever seem to matter HOW much carb I eat, I can always get back into ketosis in a day, no problem. I don't do CKD, by the way, it didn't work for me. TKD worked better for me than CKD, and I'm liking my little cutter that I'm currently doing right now. It's basically a week of low-fat, a week of low-carb, with the heaviest lifting on the carbup week, and the most cardio on the low-carb/calorie week.

Good idea. Keeps the body guessing. I am pretty much the same way in the sense that I can't do the same thing too long. I like to mix it up. If I get stale I do something different.