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  #1   ^
Old Wed, Mar-04-20, 10:24
Paul in KS's Avatar
Paul in KS Paul in KS is offline
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Posts: 91
 
Plan: Keto
Stats: 250/215/180 Male 68
BF:
Progress: 50%
Location: Coffeyville
Default Had a cheat meal last night, question

On LC diet. Last night I had a cheat meal. 4 slices of Pizza Hut meat lovers. 130 grams of carbs. This morning I had my coffee and worked out for 45 minutes with free weights. Then I blew into my keto breath analyzer. It showed a 5.0.

Does that imply that I can have a cheat meal and still be in keto by the next morning?
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  #2   ^
Old Wed, Mar-04-20, 10:55
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is online now
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Posts: 6,069
 
Plan: M-W-F ADF (2020 Q2)
Stats: 342.2/193/000 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 44%
Default

Finally! My N=1 experimentation has paid off and I can answer a question directly from my experience. However, I don't have a definite answer

If you look at my record keeping you can see that I also will continue to blow "ketones" (acetone) into my Ketonix at a higher level than normal as long as I was eating lots of fat along with lots of sugar.

I can only assume there is a mechanism that continues to oxidize the ingested fat at some nominal level (it's not an on/off switch folks) that keeps my breath acetone and blood levels at a non-lethal range as i metabolize the sugar (LOTS AND LOTS of it, like aproaching 1000 net carbs per day) into store glycogen (limited amount) liver fat and body fat.

As soon as I stop over feeding my readings dip below or down to zero for a few days if I go back to low carb intake (we'll call that 25 net carbs or below)

I've run this experiment over and over with about the same resutlts: High breath ketones post feast (as long as I keep feasting on sugar and fat i.e. donuts and pizza and candy and cake) and a terrific gain in water weight immediately (around 10 lbs) then slow steady fat gain.

http://downhaul.com/lowcarb/daily.txt

Here's most recent example from a few days ago. Trying to see if I'll have a reaction 4 days later with eczema so I (PUFA oil and gluten combined) we'll see what happens.

I don't suggest doing these experiments on yourself but I find it interesting. Notice that even with eating low carb the weight continued to climb the next day. Body still shuffling things around so it doesn't expire (die) - No sign of exema yet waiting for 96 hrs...

March 2020

KX=Ketonix, NC=Net Carb, LBS=English Pounds, Act=(Type-Intensity[1-10])

Date - Kx - Nc - Lbs - Act
0301 - 54 - 546 - 213 - KiteSnowboard-5
0302 - 77 - 20 - 220 - KiteSnowboard-6
0303 - 60 - 18 - 224 - KiteSnowboard-7
0304 - 52 - xx - 224 -
0305 - xx - xx - xxx - (4 days buffet, exema?)
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  #3   ^
Old Wed, Mar-04-20, 12:19
Paul in KS's Avatar
Paul in KS Paul in KS is offline
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Posts: 91
 
Plan: Keto
Stats: 250/215/180 Male 68
BF:
Progress: 50%
Location: Coffeyville
Default

I lifted about 9000 lbs with my back/arms this morning. Tomorrow is my leg day, will also lift about 9000 lbs in my morning fasted workout.

In order to advance science, I'll take an identical cheat meal tonight, sleep, then workout tomorrow morning. I'll take the keto readings and report my results back here.
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  #4   ^
Old Wed, Mar-04-20, 12:24
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is online now
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Plan: M-W-F ADF (2020 Q2)
Stats: 342.2/193/000 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 44%
Default

ok! My experience was the more fat that was consumed and the later i consumed it the day prior (will massive carbs as well) the higher I could push the acetone level that the Ketonix recorded. Almost to what I've only see during extended fasting (5 day) - but who knows what's actually happening in the blood - I don't have that meter.

I'm not saying this is a good thing. On the other hand, 130 net grams of carbohydrates isn't exactly high no matter what you call you diet except for VLC or "Keto"

Might even help your lifting, don't know. I'm pretty sure you'll notice some water gain, at least I do.
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  #5   ^
Old Thu, Mar-05-20, 06:43
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is online now
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Plan: M-W-F ADF (2020 Q2)
Stats: 342.2/193/000 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 44%
Default

Experiment results: perhaps a twinge of eczema on brow (normal spot for it) Waiting another 24 hrs. Water balance slowly returning to "normal" 213 might have been an artificial low as well. One more report tomorrow. Acetone slightly rebounding? I'd have to calc average from last month but I think it would be more in the upper 50's - there is quite a variable there too. My breath meter goes DOWN after i exercise - perhaps I'm better ventilated. I usually take the reading upon waking - the number is pretty arbitrary anyway...

March 2020

KX=Ketonix, NC=Net Carb, LBS=English Pounds, Act=(Type-Intensity[1-10])

Date - Kx - Nc - Lbs - Act
0301 - 54 - 546 - 213 - KiteSnowboard-5
0302 - 77 - 20 - 220 - KiteSnowboard-6
0303 - 60 - 18 - 224 - KiteSnowboard-7
0304 - 52 - 14 - 224 - Low
0305 - 53 - xx - 222 - (4 days post buffet, exema?)
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  #6   ^
Old Thu, Mar-05-20, 07:24
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is online now
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Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

Just a general comment on ketone measuring with a blood meter, if I go "off the grid" on extremely rate occasions and eat a high carb meal, I am producing a good amount of ketones the next morning. There may be a lag effect, as I know continuing this will cause ketones to plummet. However, I'm convinced that the human metabolism becomes adapted and more efficient at burning fat the longer one practices a keto WOE. I tend to stay in fat burning mode despite very occasional dietary transgressions due to "training" my metabolism to make fat my primary fuel. Just a hypothesis from my N=1, but now, with years of experience, I'm noticing it's easy to continue to produce a higher amount of ketones even if I venture from the low carb compound.
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  #7   ^
Old Thu, Mar-05-20, 09:54
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

If it works--it probably won't work day after day. Probably your glycogen levels are little higher today, and they'll be a little higher the next. Also, depending on how strict your diet has been, for how long--levels of certain enzymes needed to break down glucose for energy may be decreased, so that you're still burning largely fat even though you've taken in some carbohydrate, keep it up and you have the stimulus needed to upregulate production/activation of those enzymes.

My advice that you didn't ask for is not to look for excuses to eat pizza. Never ended well for me.
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  #8   ^
Old Thu, Mar-05-20, 11:55
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is online now
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Plan: M-W-F ADF (2020 Q2)
Stats: 342.2/193/000 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 44%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
If it works--it probably won't work day after day. Probably your glycogen levels are little higher today, and they'll be a little higher the next. Also, depending on how strict your diet has been, for how long--levels of certain enzymes needed to break down glucose for energy may be decreased, so that you're still burning largely fat even though you've taken in some carbohydrate, keep it up and you have the stimulus needed to upregulate production/activation of those enzymes.

My advice that you didn't ask for is not to look for excuses to eat pizza. Never ended well for me.

Excellent insight, speculation and advice. Thanks Teaser and Rob!

When I do over-carb (like way over carb) I don't really feel any boost of energy or any super noticeable effects except the pleasure of the indulgence. I also seem to get right back to fat burning quickly and without any cravings or keto flu stuff - just get fatter in a hurry and perhaps do some damage to my body.

-thud
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  #9   ^
Old Thu, Mar-05-20, 14:09
Paul in KS's Avatar
Paul in KS Paul in KS is offline
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Posts: 91
 
Plan: Keto
Stats: 250/215/180 Male 68
BF:
Progress: 50%
Location: Coffeyville
Default

Had 4 slices of Pizza Hut meat lovers last night. Woke up this morning, had a dose of caffeine, then did squats and deadlifts for about 30 minutes. Blew in the ketone reader and it showed around 5.0

The other 4 slices of pizza are left. I'm going to brown about 6-8 oz of hamburger and put them on top of 2 slices of pizza and top with some cheese.

Tomorrow is a non-lifting day. I usually box with a heavy bag for 20 minutes on those days after my morning caffeine. Will report back tomorrow, in the name of science.
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  #10   ^
Old Thu, Mar-05-20, 14:20
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
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Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/188/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 44%
Location: Texas
Default

It's a slippery slope, you sure it won't start calling your name? I've gotten to the point where I just tell myself
"I don't eat that" "It's poison" because if I don't, I'm sure I could put on 20lbs very quickly without even trying...
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  #11   ^
Old Fri, Mar-06-20, 02:57
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 12,768
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/123/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 139%
Location: USA
Default

Last summer, I had ice cream, from a famous local stand, ONCE. Last night, at a special meal out with DH, I had it again.

That's how my body has to do moderation I have to be really, really, moderate. And yesterday was planned, it was the only meal I ate all day, and it landed on a base of meat, since this place has wonderful wings.

It was great! And I think if I had it all the time, it wouldn't be so great? By having it at such widely spaced intervals, without guilt -- or giant portions -- it really is more enjoyable than the routine indulgence I used to do.

At least, that is how it seems to me now.
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  #12   ^
Old Fri, Mar-06-20, 06:07
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 6,069
 
Plan: M-W-F ADF (2020 Q2)
Stats: 342.2/193/000 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 44%
Default

March 2020

KX=Ketonix, NC=Net Carb, LBS=English Pounds, Act=(Type-Intensity[1-10])

Date - Kx - Nc - Lbs - Act
0301 - 54 - 546 - 213 - KiteSnowboard-5
0302 - 77 - 20 - 220 - KiteSnowboard-6
0303 - 60 - 18 - 224 - KiteSnowboard-7
0304 - 52 - 14 - 224 - Low
0305 - 53 - 16 - 222 - Low (4 days buffet, exema?)
0306 - 62 - xx - 218 -

In the name of n=1 this again proves nothing but the fact that I can blow more acetone AFTER i ingest HCHF (high carb, high fat) or the Standard American Diet ha!

Quote:
Does that imply that I can have a cheat meal and still be in keto by the next morning?



So, I guess the answer to your question, at least for me, is: Maybe

Adieu!
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  #13   ^
Old Fri, Mar-06-20, 06:52
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
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Posts: 14,046
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar...21242-fig-0002/

Perspective... breath acetone has a fair correlation to blood ketones.

But here's a graph showing that correlation. in individual data points--an example, at around .25 mM blood hydroxybutyrate--not very ketotic-- points span from what looks like around 10 nM to 140 nM. There are data points at 2.5 mM blood ketones with breath ketones no higher than that 140 nM. A correlation is not the same as the ability to predict actual blood ketones from breath ketones.

Blowing acetone just after working out gives you a data point. Try doing it nowhere near your workout on the day after pizza.
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  #14   ^
Old Fri, Mar-06-20, 07:00
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 14,046
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

If it's just weight loss, and pizza doesn't send you into a pizza frenzy--heresy of heresy on a low carb board, I think you might lose weight just fine. People are different. But it won't be keto.

I have a tight definition of ketogenic that insists on blood ketones (or at least probability of blood ketones) being elevated. I'm bipolar, and while a slightly low carb works fine for me for weight loss and maintenance, I also get anxiety/mood improvements that seem to require tighter control--for both carbs and protein.

For some reason people are always talking about how urine ketones are useless. They aren't--the correlation with blood ketones is about as good as it is for ketonix. But for some reason, breath acetone gets a pass.
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  #15   ^
Old Fri, Mar-06-20, 07:49
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 6,069
 
Plan: M-W-F ADF (2020 Q2)
Stats: 342.2/193/000 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 44%
Default

I think all this talk has convinced me to get a blood meter for fun of it and replace my Ketonix - it's had a good run but the variability of the measurements depending on time of day, amount of exogenous fat consumed, my mood, testing method (blowing into a tube for x time is not very easy to quantify) etc, etc.

Anyone want a Ketonix (first edition - powered USB) I'll send it if you pay shipping

Thanks again Teaser for your insights and research.
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