Yes, it is about PROTEIN.

No one here will be surprised that being deficient in protein drives hunger. But if we're still eating foods which are low in protein, the hunger increases.

I'm sure the process which this study refers to as "protein dilution" is a huge lever for expanding appetites.

This bit was from a little further down in the article:



As many of us have found by eating more protein, if we get enough protein, we don't feel any need at all to eat grains.

But of course they have to stick the "need" for grains in there somehow.

This article is based on the 2022 study by Raubenheimer and Simpson. Since then there have been other studies about the satiating affect of protein in the first meal of the day. Dr. Don Layman has done quite a bit on this, including his recent May 2024 review study of protein:
https://www.frontiersin.org/article...24.1388986/full

Again, these are minimums. I have heard him say in podcasts if you are older and exercise there is no negative effect to even higher protein for the first meal of the day.
I often eat over 50g in my first meal and posted yesterday a new recipe book in my journal with "40 breakfasts with 40 g protein"

The simple protein guide from Dr Naiman: 1g per pound "ideal" body weight.

Excellent information in the May 2024 Layman review. While I no longer eat breakfast, at some point for my first "meal" of the day, I drink a Whey Protein concentrate of about 30 grams of protein to get me started. I follow that shortly after with my first solid meal consisting of either meat or fish for more protein. It's important for those of us at a very advanced age to get healthy protein any way we can. Like others, I wouldn't be able to consume at least 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight via meat or fish. The whey I use is pure, unflavored from grass-fed cows, and it's very easy to include as a regular part of my daily food consumption. Since I'm working hard to defeat sarcopenia doing serious HIT resistance training to muscle failure, the increase of my lean mass in the form of muscle lets me know the protein I consume is being put to good use.

If you're anywhere close to your ideal body weight, this would be sound advice.

However, if you're obese or morbidly obese, I question using your ideal weight as the guideline for daily protein consumption, simply because it takes so much more muscle to support a body that's 50 or 100 or 150 lbs overweight.

My reason for asking this is that a physical therapist was working on me one time when I was lying on a PT table and I was supposed to push back against her while she pushed against the sole of my foot with her shoulder. She was shocked that she could hardly hold her position while I was pushing (and I wasn't even pushing all that hard), and remarked "You're REALLY strong!" I told her that you need to be really strong to support this much weight, otherwise you'd collapse under the strain.

So is the amount of protein for ideal body weight really enough to maintain muscle while losing weight if you're that much overweight?

It's hard to get adequate protein from low-fat, high-fiber meals. In nature, fat and protein are found together.

This is a simple protein guideline for the PE Diet, a place to start. It is a Minimum Protein Target and OK to Exceed it. Same with the target Fat and Carbs, they are a starting point, then adjust for activity.
Finding the foods that you like that are high in protein and also low(er) in fat is important. If you like beef and pork, use the leaner cuts. Fish and poultry are also good, as is NF yogurt and whey.

Thank you Janet - Somehow I'd missed the part about the 1 g protein/pound of ideal weight being minimums.

As someone who was always short, I'm now older and and have lost a little height, so my "ideal" body weight has dropped even lower than it used to be (I don't think my weight was that low when I was 12), so I was kind of horrified to think that I should be eating so little protein.

It also didn't line up with the recommendation for post menopausal women to eat at least... whatever amount that was. 130 g? (Can't find the thread it was in right now)

I was confused by what I thought were mixed signals. Thank you for straightening it out for me.

Breakfast for me.

2 cups of tea (one green, one black)

18 raw almonds

two "teaspoons" of pepitas roasted in coconut oil.

That gives me fat, protein, and very few carbs.

It also satisfies me as much as eggs used to do. I had to limit eggs. Arachidonic acid was eliminated from my diet to cure arthritis.

I like starting out with Naked Whey/Greek Yogurt smoothies, 50 grams. Cortisol issues gives me a touchy appetite, but I can always manage a smoothie.

That weight chart was interesting....for my height of 5'6" I should weigh 130 ideally, and that is exactly my weight loss goal, and in the past, it was my best weight.

As for the protein, I don't know how on earth I could get as much protein as they claim I should get. My typical breakfast is about 1.5 eggs and 2 pieces of bacon, plus a home made cappuccino with some whipped half and half. All of that is 15g protein and 16g fat. I'm trying to do an egg white protein shake (I don't do well with whey) and that gives me another 30g protein. So then I'm at 45g and since I don't officially eat lunch, my remaining protein is from dinner. At best I can get 30g more, so now I'm at 75g for the day. I just can't see how I'd ever reach 130g each day, I've never managed that high a level. I can eat a lot of calories if I eat carbs etc., but when sugar and carbs are eliminated my appetite is pretty small.

Carole, a higher protein diet, especially at the first meal, sounds daunting, but I can assure you can increase protein and lose weight through a reduction in fat and carb calories. If you start from a LC diet as we do here, it really is as simple as replacing fat with protein. My journal, success story, and answers in comments from others who asked the same question, are filled with examples of a high satiety, high protein way of eating. Diet Doctor has new infographics, many articles on his website on satiety and high protein by Dr Naiman, and Marty Kendall has hundreds of articles about nutrition. A recent one was https://forum.lowcarber.org/showpos...0&postcount=387. One chart here shows that the satiety equation is even simpler for those already on a lower-carb diet: swapping your fat for protein aligns with eating less!

My suggestion for breakfast would be 1 egg, 1/2 cup egg whites, 6 oz of chicken or fish, and make the cappuccino with LF Fairlife milk, plus that egg white protein shake. I no longer eat bacon, sausage, brats, fatty beef or pork, HWC, full fat yogurt, etc..anything with a P:E Ratio < 5. Also to eat enough Protein and Nutrients for good health, eating 2-3 meals in a time restricted window works well. Happy to make more suggestions in my journal if you are interested.

But I've read things about eating higher levels of protein can be counter-productive and more like eating higher carbs...??? That said, I recognize that I need to be more diligent about getting more protein than I currently get.

I actually feel really good eating fairly high fat. There have been times when I've balanced things to 65% or so fat, about 30% protein,5% carbs. I lost weight well with that, and also felt really good. 65% fat sounds bad in some ways, but it's just the percentage of what I actually end up eating. I'm not really eating tons of fat, it's just that the percentages work out like that.

I'm somewhat concerned with calories, because once I've eliminated all the grains and sugar, I'm challenged by having enough appetite to eat even 1,000 calories. In terms of satiety, eating the foods I eat appears to be very satiating even though the calories aren't great.

I'm celiac, and in addition to having to avoid all gluten, I don't tolerate whey, corn, other grains, many vegetables. Sometimes eating seems like a chore in terms of eating in a way that I have a "quiet" stomach and digestive system. Low fat milk is problematic due to the higher sugar in milk. I'm also casein sensitive, and seem to do best with half and half in small amounts. I love full fat Greek yogurt but can't tolerate it well for some reason. Equally bad is low fat yogurt. I really need to minimize milk products so I'm selective and just have my coffee with minimal half and half (that amount isn't bothersome), plus small amounts of cheese here and there.

The myth that protein turns to chocolate cake has to die. A new review paper, Common questions and misconceptions about protein supplementation: what does the scientific evidence really show? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC11022925/
And an article, Gluconeogenesis: Dispelling the Keto Fearmongering: https://optimisingnutrition.com/pro...luconeogenesis/

30% protein is perfect for someone close to goal like you, or in maintenance on balanced diet. It's in the magical 30% trend Dr Naiman favors: https://forum.lowcarber.org/showpos...0&postcount=362 useful staring points.
For more aggressive weight loss, almost a PSMF, 40% P works for many Optimisers for a short period of time, but that depends on your preferred diet.

I can comment more in your journal, but clarify here that Fairlife Milk is an Ultra-Filtered product, lactose has been filtered out. https://fairlife.com/ultra-filtered...2-percent-milk/ has 50% more protein, because 50% less sugar. Non-fat, A2, different brands or goat's milk yogurt are some options that can be tested.

More bioavailable (I can't do plant sources) protein is a game changer. Try it. Especially if you are healing from anything.

You might be surprised.