Kallyn, I laughed so hard when you gave your description of vegans..I totally feel the same way. I remember seeing a picture of some hollywood celebrity woman who was apparently on a vegan diet (all rice and beans), and she looked like all the blood had been drained out of her flesh. I bet she was anemic.

I totally agree with you rk900 on the animal meat/liver being super-packed with nutrients. Thanks for that Weston Price chart on comparison of beef liver to apples and carrots..gonna show that one to my mom who thinks I'm going to develop a vitamin deficiency, haha.

I agree with you also that you should consume liver freely until it doesn't taste super yummy anymore..to the point where it starts to taste bland. That's a good indicator that you've had enough for that meal. And to be honest, sometimes rare liver tastes really really good in an instinctive way; the only thing I don't like is the blood vessels or whatever that run through the liver..I thank the lord when I eat a piece that isn't heavily filled of them because I have to spit them out or give them to my dog..but when I'm really craving liver, I nearly just swallow it whole and don't think at all about the 'rubbery' vessels and whatnot that runs through the liver. I'll have to try the testicles; I've been meaning to try haggis too, but that's gonna have to wait till I can get it somewhere legal.

I think if you're short for money and want to get the fattiest meat possible, go for a chuck roast; I've only ever eaten it after it had cooked in a crock-pot all day, but I'm going to try cutting up steak-size portions off a piece of raw chuck roast and eat it rare/medium rare. It always tastes better to me when the meat is at least room temperature (not cold).

As for the cod liver oil, I really suggest the high vitamin form (Blue Ice); it's only $15 for an 8 oz. bottle, and it has twice the amount of natural vitamins A and D in it; I also recommend getting out in the sun (with no sunglasses on) for as much as possible during the day. I noticed that since getting back on the cod liver oil, I'm sleeping a lot. I was late to my statistics class this morning because I slept until 7:30; but I felt so energized from sleeping until my body was fully ready to wake up again. Its probably better to go to bed early so you don't wake up later..but I had a late class last night, so it was kind of unavoidable.

A diet that is high in animal fats and liver/etc. vitamins from animal sources makes your immune system superb..I haven't gotten sick once in the seven months eating this way. If only people knew what was in the cough medicines and tylenol they take so readily when they 'have' to. I mean, cough medicine is practically all just high fructose corn syrup and alcohol (to put you to sleep). And statins are another story! I wonder sometimes what's in those multivitamins they suggest children to take. (If they taste so aweful, how can they really be good for you?).

What is put in school lunches makes me want to home school my kids (when I have some)..but not really! I think kids need an environment of peers their own age; every time I've ever seen pictures or a tv show about home schooled kids, the kids always look so depressed and deprived of peer socializing. Probably the best thing to do would be to take a stand and force schools to get rid of vending machines (or don't give them money to buy the junk food from them in the first place) and have your kid take lunches from home.

I'm not too sure about the UVA/UVB lamp I've tried basking in is doing anything to me (or my dog), though I've been getting some real sun lately and it makes me feel great. Plus I'm getting really tan.

I find myself defending meat to vegetarians, and now veggies to carnivores/omnivores. Rk900, I don't have a lot of time right now to read the article, and I'll check with my friend about evidence for raw veggies. But I imagine that they found stores of the stuff at sites. I know, for instance, that they've found wild wheat grass at the sites, so paleo people did eat some grain as well.

I guess it depends who you ask what common knowledge is, but most main stream eaters I know believe that eating cooked foods is better for you, so I think what you say concurs with what most people believe about raw v. cooked foods. People on this board seem to realize there are benefits to eating raw meat, but why not veggies as well? I understand that cooking some veggies make some nutrients more bio-available, as well as it neutralizing some anti-nutrients, like oxalic acid and goitrogens. Nuts also benefit from being cooked. But that doesn't make it bad to eat all veggies raw. I'm not sure I would agree that vegans are consuming poison. One of my friends who is raw vegan is trained as a macrobiotic chef and she is well aware of the existence of anti-nutrients in foods. I totally think eating meat is healthier, but at the same time, I would attribute her glow to the benefits of raw foods. She has complained that her diet does not seem to working, so she is open to change. Obviously I think it's because she's lacking animal products in her diet. But to me that doesn't refute eating raw, I just think it needs to include meat.

damn i wish i could eat like the Native Americans in this article.. http://www.westonaprice.org/traditi..._americans.html

if i could just spend a day with a tribe.. eat all that pure fat and exotic organs, innards, all the good stuff.
i might take myself off dairy in a couple days, no more raw grassfed butter and milk, because i don't think dairy does good things for me. if i do this im screwed because its hard to find organs and pure animal fat in markets and butchers, everyone just wants steaks and meat.
i want to truly start upping this lifestyle and getting more involved, i need to be eating closer to the Native Americans.. im easily doing this with lots of calfs liver and meat, lots of fish, but what else?!?!?!
i dont understand how the natives ate the pure fat.. when ive asked for beef fat before i get little white trimmings, they are super hard and when i cook them even for a few mintues they are impossibly chewy chewy..
what is the TrEaSUrE foods like pure animal fat i cannot find this anywhere and now that im cutting out dairy i'll need to really up my intake of organs and pure animal fat..

I had a blow out with my mom about joining a 'commune'..she says there were people in the 70s who tried to do the same thing (hunt and gather) and were losers..apparently people who join communes are seen as hippies.

So, I'm convinced by several articles now that living in the wild is not necessary in today's society to get plenty of good meat/organs, and have a meaningful life. And by her definition, I am not a worker but a thinker so I'd be of no use in a commune. I certainly don't want to be in a commune to be the child-bearer, eww..that would be a really sh*tty point of life..after all, humans are more than animals. We are thinkers and an intelligent species.

I'm trying to find what I want to do for a 'career', and my mom says I don't want to be a poor farmer, but then I tell her money doesn't matter to me. Well, it doesn't matter so long as I can have a meaningful life and get plenty of meat/organs and not be a 'hippy' my whole life. I don't want to work inside all my life, but there are very few jobs that are outside..that I could get by with. I guess I'm at that period in my life where I don't know what I want to do with my life, and I'm also willing to experiment.

meatzrus, going to live with Native Americans is not as good as you make it out to be. I have been told by someone who lived on a reservation their whole life that it is a poor life, there is little or no food in the house, and it's dirty with cockroaches crawling in the house. Just because it has the word 'native american' in it does not mean by any means that that particular reservation will be sticking to a traditional native american diet. As you have read, I'm sure, in Weston Price's Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, native americans tried to conform with the white diet; as a result they have developed rotten teeth and poor facial structures in many cases as well as diseases.

Being an intellectual, to me, is equally as important as being a carnivore. I'm willing to sacrifice eating normal food so I can see and feel healthy differences in my self and also to live longer, but I am not willing to run off to some native american commune and be stuck as my 'natural' role, a child-bearer, my whole life. How sad and pointless that would be.

meatzrus,

That is probably subcutaneous fat.. it's pretty tough usually. It of course softens when cooked long enough. Fats around organs and stomach are much softer, you can even pound them into flour if you freeze them before hand. They are also considered more nutritious.

according to this book
http://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Get-Si...n/dp/0679746749
modern peoples' jaw muscles are probably undeveloped due to lack of chewing on tough foods. in fact, the book suggests that impacted wisdom teeth are purely a modern malady caused by the fact that we don't grow up doing enough chewing on tough or stringy things, so our jaws don't develop in the way that evolution designed them to. possibly native americans really did just chew through that type of fat.

Hey Lucy: if veggies feel good to you and make you feel healthier, that's definitely a good thing! I've experimented w/ all-meat several times and never missed veggies one bit. As vegetarian, I constantly gravitated towards cheese and eggs, though I tried not to eat too much due to the belief that they were unhealthy in large amounts (veggie propaganda). There's a natural desire in the human body for animal foods, I believe. Plant foods can easily be forgotten.

Paleo peoples may have had to eat plant foods quite often -- that doesn't mean they wouldn't eat plenty of meat if they could! The fact that a human being can live off of soley meat and fat and be healthy (as Stefansson proved) kind of makes one wonder about the necessity of plant foods in the diet. In contrast, a person can't live soley on plant foods and be healthy. Meat is awesome!

Also, there are examples of primitive peoples thriving off of meat and fat and an easily digested grain of some kind. The Gaelics (who Weston Price believed to be the healthiest of all the culture he came across) ate fish and soaked oats. Vegetables were eaten in season. The Swiss also utilized grains in the form of a sourdough rye bread. If analyzed for macronutrient values, both of these diets would prove to be high in fat (of animal origin).

But then again, the Masai, notorious for eating lots of meat and dairy fat, actually utilize a wide number of herbs, tree bark, and roots in their stews. Thus, the plants are not being use for caloric purposes as they are only used to provide bitterness and a medicinal kick (apparently some of these herbs are anti-atherosclerotic). This is one case that makes me wonder if there are important properties in plants, specifically herbs. I'm currently experimenting w/ the use of herbs in my diet.

But still: raw whole veggies? I don't think they're important. Medicinal herbs are pretty damn cool, though (especially wild and native ones). And animal fat should be the cornerstone of any healthy diet, IMO.

Lucysdream, you said something about not using laundry detergent or shampoo. What do you use then to clean your clothes? I'm asking this because I think I have a slight allergy to the laundry detergent because when I wear clothes, my skin itches all over, and it's not because it's dry, because I use coconut oil all over my skin. Another issue could be that our water-heater broke on the right side of our house (we have two of them BTW), so the washing machine doesn't get hot water, which could be leaving extra soap in the clothes.

I have switched to using this weird deodorant that doesn't have aluminum or titanium in it, but sometimes it's just not very strong and I have body odor; this stays on my underarms of my shirts even after my mom washes the clothes..I know, I excrete plenty of smelly stuff (which is probably full of pheromones or whatever, but I still wish I didn't have to deal with it).

Anyway, your input would be really appreciated.

guys im struggling.. i cut out dairy and im having difficulties keeping my fat intake up. im eating ground beef burgers, steaks, lots of fish, shellfish, and some roasts, all grassfed beef i dont eat pork or chicken but i might start eating those again.
im trying to gain musclemass & bodyweight and keep my fat intake up, but there's barely any fat if you remove dairy. dairy has lots of saturated fats, and besides fatty cuts of meat and fatty fish filets im not getting enough in.

How much fat do you estimate that you're eating, meatzrus?

Get some fat trimmings from the butcher and make tallow or lard by rendering the fat (you can find plenty of info on this at the zero-carb forum). I like to dip pieces of steak, fish, or whatever into the supplemental fat as the Inuit did w/ seal oil.

Also, ghee (clarified butter) is good!

i forgot to add i eat lots of liver too, calfs liver.
i have no idea how much fat im eating, im afraid its not enough. isn't it dangerous to eat high protein, like steaks all day with not enough fat. crap i need to make adjustments, this isn't going to work.

i should think about adding in eggs. are eggs a good source of the fat soluble vitamins and saturated fat? they would for sure help me bring up the calories, fat, and other vitamins.
i doubt the natives ate very many eggs, but im at a wall

Heck yeah, man! Gulp down plenty of egg yolks and you'll be a happy dude.

meatzrus, I'm surprised you weren't eating eggs before seeing as how you like to keep your fat intake high. Egg yolks are one of our best food sources (especially when taken raw).

If you are eating fatty cuts of meat, I don't think you need to be worried about not getting enough fat. People hear about protein toxicity and blow it out of proportion. Of course when doing low/no carb. you shouldn't be eating lean meats, so just make sure the steaks you're eating are like chuck & you'll be great! With a few egg yolks you're probably reaching a 70/30 fat/protein ratio from a calorie perspective - which is great! I think some people make the mistake of thinking that the meat you're eating has to be more fat than protein from a quantity stand-point (when looking at it), and I'm pretty sure this is not correct. Also, don't forget there is bits of fat all in what looks like solid protein.

If I were you, I would re-think eating more beef and cutting back on the fish a little, because although fish is fatty, you're going to get a better profile of fat in fatty beef cuts than you are in fish (I'm pretty sure). Also, I've found poultry usually isn't worth it as far as fat, even with the skin. I find that it simply is too lean - even dark meat. You're better off with beef in my opinion.

I also noticed you're eating a HUGE variety of different meats. There is nothing wrong with this, but I don't think you need to be worried about getting such a huge variety. It sounds like you may be overcomplicating things by trying to eat from many different sources. Keep in mind that you can eat just fatty beef and take some cod liver oil and do just fine! (at least it works good for me!)

Also, you can usually buy beef suet ~ the grocery and cook that up with your meat to add supplemental fat -- you can def. do this without dairy. You could also try adding in some coconut oil if you tolerate that well - it is VERY high in saturated medium chain fatty acids which a lot of atheletes prefer (so I've read) for long sustained energy. I know it helps keep me warm in the winter internally.

Just my two cents! Hope this helps!

On the subject of cod liver oils, I contacted a company called Solgar about their CLO (website http://www.solgar.com) asking if their CLO has only naturally occuring vitamins, or if they are lost during refining process and synthetics would be then added back, and they responded that their CLO has only naturally occuring A and D vitamins. Their message was a bit weird. It has three attachments to it.. one was very small grey triangle (like arrow), one some kind of moon maybe, and other was just a white spot. What do you think about this? Do you know any reason why they shouldn't be trusted, or should be trusted?