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  #31   ^
Old Wed, Aug-14-19, 11:56
Calianna's Avatar
Calianna Calianna is offline
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Posts: 1,281
 
Plan: Atkins-ish (hypoglycemia)
Stats: 000/000/000 Female 63
BF:
Progress: 50%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-a-rama
~snip~

And to the person who mentioned eggs. both eggs and fowl are high in arachidonic acid and should not be eaten with anyone who has arthritis.

Myself, DW and at least a half dozen friends went on the arthritis/bursitis diet and cured ourselves without medical intervention.

Besides, eggs aren't vegetarian. What vegetable produces an egg?

So fight back before they take our meat away. Spread the word. Going vegetarian is worse for the environment than a balanced omnivorous diet.

Bob



The term vegan seems to have been coined within just the last few years, primarily to separate those who are strictly against using or consuming any products at all that have an animal origin, so not only do they not eat eggs or dairy, they don't use or eat anything from an animal origin, including anything produced by an animal, such as honey or wool. There are vegan clothing lines available (shoes, sweaters, etc), meaning that no part of the clothing has any sort of animal based origin - so no silk, no feathers, no fur, and no leather. It also doesn't matter to vegans that in order to care for a sheep properly, it needs to be sheared yearly, and that you're actually doing the sheep a favor by shearing it, and that's the source of wool. But since wool is an animal produced fiber, it's off limits for vegan clothing. [Can you imagine wearing a wool coat several inches thick when the temperatures are in the 90's? That's what a sheep which has not been sheared faces in the heat of the summer. Even angora wool - rabbits molt their entire coat twice yearly anyway. If you pluck the loose fur from a rabbit's coat, it does him no harm. In fact, he is far less likely to develop a digestive blockage from swallowing wads of loose fur, and will be far more comfortable in the process of molting his coat.]

Currently, there is a much wider definition of vegetarian in that it prohibits using animal products that caused harm to the animal - in other words, since no animal had to die to produce eggs and dairy, there's no blanket definition of vegetarian that prohibits the use of eggs and dairy. I don't know how long it's been defined that way, although I do recall back in the late 70's reading about vegetarian diets, and eggs and dairy were considered acceptable for vegetarians back then too. (To clarify, some who consider themselves to be vegetarians do abstain from eggs and/or dairy, but don't call themselves vegan, because of other products they use related to animals that vegans avoid using, such as the aforementioned wool.)

At any rate, I only mention eggs as a source of complete protein, essential fatty acids, and many other essential nutrients acceptable to those who are vegetarians by the general definition that vegetarians avoid animal sourced foods that harmed an animal, but don't necessarily avoid animal sourced foods which don't cause the animal any harm. Whether or not eating eggs causes or worsens problems with arthritis or inflammation in humans was not part of the equation - merely that for those who refuse to eat actual meat, eggs can be a very good source of nutrients, many of which can not be found in plant sourced foods.
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  #32   ^
Old Wed, Aug-14-19, 18:17
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,130
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
Found Jimmy Moore via another blogger. Did he work with Westmann to write a book??? If he is that man, my first memory of him was wstching The Paleo Way season two just a few months ago. I thought he was a delight to listen to as he and Pete Evans chatted. A real person still battling the last pounds....as so many of us are.

Regarding Jimmy Moore, reread my post. It provides a brief bio and a link to everything Jimmy. Did he coauthor with Westman? Yes. Did he coauthor with Fung? Yes. The books are listed, and all his information is there. He's a good guy who has spread the word about low carb, keto, fasting, and general lifestyle changes through healthy eating. He's encountered his speed bumps, but haven't we all?
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  #33   ^
Old Thu, Aug-15-19, 08:54
Bob-a-rama's Avatar
Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
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Plan: Keto (Atkins Induction)
Stats: 230/179/185 Male 5' 11"
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Progress: 113%
Location: Florida
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I have a vegan friend who rants against the people who eat eggs and cheese stealing their name, "Vegetarian".

She points out she has been a vegetarian since the days when it meant only plant matter and that once you eat that first egg or piece of cheese you are an omnivore and not a vegetarian.

I quite agree with her.

But I tend to get a little persnickety about words changing their definition.

Bob
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  #34   ^
Old Thu, Aug-15-19, 10:27
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/214/153 Female 5'8"
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Went back to first post,
Quote:
Of course rich Western adults could eat less meat.


I do wonder how this point was arrived at. It is a comment as old as the hills, or nearly.

Personally, I see far too many people who cannot access quality food, and meat consumption seems to be rather low, while crappy carbs are very high.

This has been my personal observation at grocery check outs, visiting friends, and looking at food pantry staples.

What is the real number? What is the pounds oer capita? AND consumption based on income level would be rather reveiling.

Also, could it be that higher consumption of animal meats, including fish,etc, is healthier? Where are tbe studies on optimal protein intake?? IMO tbere is ni such level. Other nutritional foid sources impact the amount of protein consummed so one set serving a day becomes a moot point.

Back to the quote above, such a statement is one of bias and negativity. Not truth.

IMO, far too many people around the world have been starved of quality meats. From the poorest in the US, those that choose fast foods to over populated areas...

Though I am not convinced that providing "conventionally" produced protein is the answer. It fixes one problem but creates another. The trade off is health.

My son helped me bring fresh broccali , tomatoes, badil and zucchini to the weekly church supper. When were leaving with the leftovers , he mentioned how fat everyone was attending.....even he us realizing quality of food matters to good health.
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  #35   ^
Old Thu, Aug-15-19, 10:29
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/214/153 Female 5'8"
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Progress: 40%
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRB5111
Regarding Jimmy Moore, reread my post. It provides a brief bio and a link to everything Jimmy. Did he coauthor with Westman? Yes. Did he coauthor with Fung? Yes. The books are listed, and all his information is there. He's a good guy who has spread the word about low carb, keto, fasting, and general lifestyle changes through healthy eating. He's encountered his speed bumps, but haven't we all?


Thanks, looked at link, still trying to get around site. But yes, this us the same man.

Really bothers me that he has been silenced on utube. I do better with video for learning: voice only is difficult to concentrate on. Just my learning style.

I dont expect him to be perfect in his knowledge, but he is FAR ahead of a few million MDs.

Last edited by Ms Arielle : Thu, Aug-15-19 at 10:35.
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  #36   ^
Old Thu, Aug-15-19, 10:46
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Plan: atkins
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  #37   ^
Old Thu, Aug-15-19, 11:15
CityGirl8 CityGirl8 is offline
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Plan: Protein Power, IF
Stats: 238/204/145 Female 5'8"
BF:53.75%/46.6%/25%
Progress: 37%
Location: PNW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
Went back to first post,
Quote:
Of course rich Western adults could eat less meat.

I do wonder how this point was arrived at. It is a comment as old as the hills, or nearly.

Personally, I see far too many people who cannot access quality food, and meat consumption seems to be rather low, while crappy carbs are very high.
I completely agree. Even people who eat lots of vegetables and not lots of junk-food carbs aren't getting enough protein. People really misunderstand what the RDA recommendation is and is based on. It's only a bare minimum recommendation that's based on global concerns about inadequate diets. It's not a suggestion that you "only" need that much or a maximum, which is how most people consider it.
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  #38   ^
Old Thu, Aug-15-19, 18:05
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,130
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Quote:
Of course rich Western adults could eat less meat.


This appears to be part of the vegetarian/ vegan playbook, as I've heard this quote before. Gout used to be considered the disease of the wealthy in the past. However, I have friends who got rid of their gout symptoms simply by going low carb. Could it be that gout is a combination of a WOE that includes rich meats, carbs, and fats? This is my hypothesis. That's basically a SAD approach. The right combination can result in very different things and when meat is a part of that combination, it's certain it will be identified as the cause.
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  #39   ^
Old Thu, Aug-15-19, 18:55
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/214/153 Female 5'8"
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Progress: 40%
Location: Massachusetts
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Rob, what little I know of gout put it at the feet of high carb diet. Until recently like just 100 years ago we had enough meat and veg , and some grains. Legumes. Enough meaning we could survive. The rich were the fat cats, and a well fed wife was a symbol of wealth. Those people paid with gout, etc.

Not sure where I got this info..... been in my head for a few too many years to recall source.
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  #40   ^
Old Thu, Aug-15-19, 19:19
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,130
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
Rob, what little I know of gout put it at the feet of high carb diet. Until recently like just 100 years ago we had enough meat and veg , and some grains. Legumes. Enough meaning we could survive. The rich were the fat cats, and a well fed wife was a symbol of wealth. Those people paid with gout, etc.

Not sure where I got this info..... been in my head for a few too many years to recall source.

This is correct Ms A, and it's consistent with what I've heard. So, in those times, this WOE was the epitome of SAD on steroids, as you can be sure that considering the expense of sugar, they were eating rich, fatty meats and many delicious breads and desserts only they could afford. This combination, as I mentioned earlier, created the conditions for gout. Meat (protein), however, became the villain.
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  #41   ^
Old Thu, Aug-15-19, 20:21
Zei Zei is offline
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Plan: Carb reduction in general
Stats: 230/213/180 Female 5 ft 9 in
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Location: Texas
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Quote:
Of course rich Western adults could eat less meat.
But what would they eat instead? Non-starchy veggies by their nature provide little energy, so what? In even a best case scenario avoiding the obvious cheap processed carbs/industrial seed oils and eating whole foods, plant protein value is lesser so more is needed plus comes with a big dose of carbs in legumes, grains, nuts etc., not a friendly eating pattern for those with metabolic issues. Not to mention the lectins and other anti-nutrients provided by plants to discourage animal life from consuming them and their seed "babies." And as others have said, aging people need more, not less, high quality protein to avoid muscle wasting and frailty.
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  #42   ^
Old Thu, Aug-15-19, 20:37
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is online now
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Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/188/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 44%
Location: Texas
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I think around the turn of the century and into the 50s in the south they consumed a lot of corn, dried and processed themselves in a gristmill. Their sugar was molasses, not the white powder sugar. Combine that with fat, lard or tallow and I'm sure that was a lethal combination for gout. Veggies were only seasonal unless canned, if one grew any.
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  #43   ^
Old Thu, Aug-15-19, 20:44
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Posts: 12,395
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/214/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRB5111
This combination, as I mentioned earlier, created the conditions for gout. Meat (protein), however, became the villain.


Yes, pointing figures without the science ...?
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  #44   ^
Old Thu, Aug-15-19, 20:48
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Posts: 12,395
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/214/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zei
But what would they eat instead? Non-starchy veggies by their nature provide little energy, so what? In even a best case scenario avoiding the obvious cheap processed carbs/industrial seed oils and eating whole foods, plant protein value is lesser so more is needed plus comes with a big dose of carbs in legumes, grains, nuts etc., not a friendly eating pattern for those with metabolic issues. Not to mention the lectins and other anti-nutrients provided by plants to discourage animal life from consuming them and their seed "babies." And as others have said, aging people need more, not less, high quality protein to avoid muscle wasting and frailty.


Totally with you.

Last I checked I am not a cow!!! Cows snd sheep and other riminants have a huge gut system. A huge rumen to collect a huge volume of young grasses, then they ruminate and ruminate to release the nutrients.
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  #45   ^
Old Thu, Aug-15-19, 20:51
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Posts: 12,395
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/214/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meme#1
I think around the turn of the century and into the 50s in the south they consumed a lot of corn, dried and processed themselves in a gristmill. Their sugar was molasses, not the white powder sugar. Combine that with fat, lard or tallow and I'm sure that was a lethal combination for gout. Veggies were only seasonal unless canned, if one grew any.


Yes, sadly a version of this seems to have become spread all over the US now...
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