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  #1   ^
Old Wed, Apr-07-04, 19:00
LisaS LisaS is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 568
 
Plan: PPLP
Stats: 235/179/125 Female 5' 5"
BF:lots/less/<20%
Progress: 51%
Location: So Calif
Cool Getting stronger not bigger

often there are posts about not wanting to get hyooooge or concern about getting too big - or adding too much muscle weight.
and sometime in the mix, low rep high wt routines vs. high rep lower wt routines is also discussed.

i came across an interesting article about strength training for competitive gymnasts - the goal would be to increase strength w/out adding muscle mass/weight since gymnasts have to move their own body weight all the time -
sound like a familiar goal?

here is the paper:
http://www.usa-gymnastics.org/publi...h-training.html
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  #2   ^
Old Wed, Apr-07-04, 21:41
Galadriell's Avatar
Galadriell Galadriell is offline
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Posts: 1,529
 
Plan: Yudkin
Stats: 000/000/000 Female 000
BF:
Progress: 100%
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WOW! A very interesting article, thanks for posting:-)
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  #3   ^
Old Thu, Apr-08-04, 08:55
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climbergrl climbergrl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 248
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 125/112/105
BF:
Progress: 65%
Location: Park City, Ut
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So I got lost in all the details, but found it fascinating. So was he recommending the MAX program to gain maximum muscle strength with minimum size?
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  #4   ^
Old Thu, Apr-08-04, 13:25
LisaS LisaS is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 568
 
Plan: PPLP
Stats: 235/179/125 Female 5' 5"
BF:lots/less/<20%
Progress: 51%
Location: So Calif
Default

yes. basically the absolute strength is limited by muscle-size (cross-sectional area) - but there are ways to train to maximize the force you can generate with that muscle w/out adding more muscle (decrease strength deficit). Once you are as strong as that muscle size can be, to gain strength, you must gain muscle - and for gymnasts there needs to be a balance between the 2 programs.
I'll quote 2 relevant paragraphs as a distillation
--------- 1 -----------------
Special, specific strength training for an event provokes an adaptation of the neural innervation processes that control the skill. The fraction of the absolute strength that can be voluntary activated may be increased with maximal strength training. Consequently, maximal strength can be increased by other means than by increasing the cross-sectional surface area of the muscle. An example of a training program that will increase the maximal strength of the athlete, without increasing the muscle size (absolute strength), would be the program of the MAX group in Bührle and Werner's experiment (see Table 1). However, coaches and athletes should recognize the fact that improvement by this method is limited by the morphologically available muscular mass, in other words by the absolute strength level. Therefore, a gymnast's conditioning should alternate between muscle hypertrophy and maximal strength training, between the training processes shown in Figures 3 and 4 (Schmidtbleicher, 1992). During training periods when relatively many whole and part routines are completed, the special strength training should be like that in Figure 4, using a program like that of the MAX group in Table 1. The reason for emphasizing training like Figure 4 is to keep muscle hypertrophy and the strength deficit as low as possible during this routine training period.

---------- 2 --------------------------

It has been noticed for some time that the very best gymnasts in the world have great strength with little muscle mass (Schwermann, 1986). Massive development of quadriceps (women) and upper arms (men) in some of our best gymnasts is also anecdotal evidence that our strength training should be reevaluated. Elite gymnasts who resemble body builders make a nice show, but poor gymnastics. My direct experience with the 1993 World University Games USA men's gymnastics team leads me to believe that the strength deficit is a problem in USA men's gymnastics training methodology. During the first phase of the training camp for those World University Games, the athletes demonstrated an almost daily increase in maximal strength, and excellent performance during gymnastics practice, despite unusually hard and fatiguing training of daily compulsory and optional routines as well as twice-daily strength training. These changes happened over such a short period of time that a change in absolute strength can be ruled out. The morning strength session was according to the same program as the MAX group in Table 1. The afternoon strength training was according to Plotkin, Rubin, and Arkaev (1983). The MAX program involved a maximum lift in each training and therefore the 1RM was measured every day. Almost without exception, the 1RM of the team members increased each day. I believe that what was happening was an increase in their maximal strength before there was any possibility of further hypertrophy because there was not enough time for the muscle to hypertrophy nor were the gymnasts lifting enough to cause muscle growth. Therefore they reduced their strength deficit, and thereby increased their relative strength. Another sign was that their gymnastics performance continued to be excellent, and even improve, despite the fatigue of strength twice a day as well as half-routine and full-routine training (Watanabe, Major, and McKelvain, 1993; Major, 1993). The situation of our elite and collegiate female gymnasts is unknown. The 1991 Women's Senior National Team was stronger than the Junior National Team (Irvin, Major, and Sands, 1992). However, the fact that the Junior National Team had better relative strength indicates that the Senior National Team's strength training was not maximizing strength while minimizing muscle hypertrophy as effectively.

-----------------------------------------------
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  #5   ^
Old Thu, Apr-08-04, 14:27
DianaO's Avatar
DianaO DianaO is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,589
 
Plan: Atkins 72 Version
Stats: 175.5/123.5/115 Female 5'3 I grew an Inch!
BF:??/21%/19-20%
Progress: 86%
Location: Anderson, Indiana
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LOL I want to get a bit bigger.. course If I know me the muscles will get bigger in the wrong places. LOL
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  #6   ^
Old Thu, Apr-08-04, 14:36
nets33's Avatar
nets33 nets33 is offline
weighing in....
Posts: 8,370
 
Plan: BFL
Stats: 245/225/200 Female 5' 10"
BF:Why, yes, yes I do
Progress: 44%
Location: Michigan
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Don't forget that muscle is a lot leaner than fat AND that muscle burns a lot more energy. The articles I've read on muscle mass and weight training indicate that (for women) unless you're taking steroids you don't have to worry about the "bulk" that you see on male body-builders.

I'm not looking for bulk - I want those lean defined muslces to show and make others go "WOW"!

Kiki
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