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  #1   ^
Old Mon, Sep-10-18, 07:03
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 4,192
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/128/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: Vermont
Default Either this or that

Here are some confusing positions within the low carb world.

1. High protein is good (Ted Naiman)/high protein is bad (Ron Rosedale)

2. Vegetables are beneficial (Terry Wahls)/ Vegetables are harmful (Georgia Ede)

3. Fasting is beneficial (Jason Fung)/Fasting is harmful (Stephen Phinney)

This of course is a vast simplification of the controversies and it leaves out lots of others who fall on one side or the other of the controversies (or somewhere in the middle). It leaves a person without a clear direction in which to go. I take my best guess and try not to obsess too much about it. I am not always successful with that.
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  #2   ^
Old Mon, Sep-10-18, 10:21
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is online now
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Posts: 9,224
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 247/217/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 32%
Location: Massachusetts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cotonpal
Here are some confusing positions within the low carb world.

1. High protein is good (Ted Naiman)/high protein is bad (Ron Rosedale)

2. Vegetables are beneficial (Terry Wahls)/ Vegetables are harmful (Georgia Ede)

3. Fasting is beneficial (Jason Fung)/Fasting is harmful (Stephen Phinney)

This of course is a vast simplification of the controversies and it leaves out lots of others who fall on one side or the other of the controversies (or somewhere in the middle). It leaves a person without a clear direction in which to go. I take my best guess and try not to obsess too much about it. I am not always successful with that.



Yes, all are very complicated. I went done the rabbit hole on each at one point or another. And made decisions that fit my understanding, a goal of long term health, and allows me to produce some of my own food.

1. protein--need an adequate amount. More at the initializing LC after falling off the wagon, and fats too. Eating high quality grass fed organic meats are worth eating even if it means eating smaller portions. When a duck gets invited to dinner, we use up the meat asap, eating more than usual. Processed ducks go into the freezer.

2.Vegetables--what kind and how much. Dr Atkins fits my opinion. Eat as much as your body will allow. Potatoes are out in favor of fresh green beans and tomatoes from the garden. The potatoes we produce, my skinny teen eat. And some go to the dogs. We are building our gardening skills: on the number of varieties. Last fall bok choi thrived on neglect, loves the cool weather, and I harvested well into the fall. 3 eggplants picked today-- the first ever for my efforts!!! Planted an orchard, goal is organic, and no pesticides at all, or at least not conventional, peaches, pears, apples, cherries. I highly recommend the dwarf cherries, which are bushes up to 6 feet. These are low glycemic fruits. Beets have beneficial properties that are unique. As does celery and cukes. Mushrooms!! Lay stem removed mushrooms out in sun for 6 hours and boost the vit D content-- according to one website. Then store the dried mushrooms, eating only a few at a time. Also we dry fruit for my kids lunches-- a cheap candy and better nutrients for my teens. Jicima is delightful. Like a more fibrous apple. I could add so much more--

3. Fasting-- I looked at Phinneys information carefully, and felt he was genuinely concerned given the clear data; Dr Fung seems rather gung-ho to the point of closed ears and clearly stated he is only interested in weight loss not on good health. I love his enthusiasm, and have watched many of his YouTube postings, and think he is a breath of fresh air, but on this I think short term fasting is enough. For me 24/1 is my maximum because, honestly, I love cooking and I love eating good foods. Historically many groups of people, usually for religious reasons, fasted regularly, but it was short IF types. Not days at a time. I would like to keep my metabolism UP as I continue to age, and fight to keep muscle mass, and keep very active as my grandfather did living well into his 90's, living independently, helping others, and still keeping house, albeit a smaller house. Otherwise, it is good to know that if a famine hits, I know we can survive.
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  #3   ^
Old Mon, Sep-10-18, 10:59
barb712's Avatar
barb712 barb712 is offline
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Posts: 694
 
Plan: Atkins 40
Stats: 240/209/210 Female 5 feet 11 inches
BF:27%
Progress: 103%
Location: USA
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All the conflicting information and opinions can drive anyone crazy. I've heard it said that the best diet is one you can stick to, and I couldn't agree more. Read up on different books/plans/philosophies and see what resonates with you, and adopt it as a template for life.
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  #4   ^
Old Mon, Sep-10-18, 11:21
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
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Posts: 13,093
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

4: it's all good.

Pretty common over the years to see somebody stalled and all of these advices given. Add in, you need to eat more fat, you need to eat less fat. More exercise, exercise will speed up your metabolism, less exercise--exercise will slow down your metabolism. Maybe you're eating too many carbs? Your carbs are too low, now your thyroid and leptin are going to be thrashed, better do a refeed. I think that last is simply a myth, but a lot of the other stuff is sort of black box, see how you respond individually. (Not saying that some people won't respond better to slightly higher carbs, just that the thyroid and leptin things are mostly bro-science).


When it comes to Rosedale's protein prescription--I eat not far from that, but I think Rosedale's stretching when it comes to low protein-->increased lifespan. In the calorie restriction studies, at least, calorie restriction is only shown to improve lifespan in animals eating a chow that they would have otherwise overeaten and become obese and/or diabetic/insulin resistant. Generally involves a diet that's both sugary and fatty I see this more as a prevention of a shortened lifespan rather than an increase of maximal lifespan.

My reason for the lower protein intake (not horribly low, talking around 70 grams a day, Rosedale allows slightly more if you work out) is that I feel better on it. Better energy, better mood. Originally went this low and a bit lower chasing ketosis, to see if I felt better that way. Turns out I do, and maintain a lower, leaner, non-emaciated bodyweight this way. No idea if it's because it's ketogenic, lower insulin, some more direct effect of clamping protein, or what. I don't like to mess with individual anecdotes too much, including my own--I believe the individual evidence, try not to generalize to everybody else too much.


Any one macro--take carbs. There are hormones like ghrelin that increase our appetite, especially responsive to carbohydrate. Countered by other hormones like leptin. A system to initiate feeding, one for satiation/conclusion of feeding. "Protein is the most satiating macronutrient." It's possible this is generally true, I don't know. But I know this doesn't seem to be true for me. The body has to initiate feeding for fat, protein, and (carbohydrate, if you must). And needs to know when to stop. Each macro is a slightly different problem to be solved, it works different if you eat a "pure" macro versus combined. You'll eat more baked potato with butter probably, then you'd eat plain baked potato or butter alone. Or cheese, protein and butter fat--a more common binge food that plain butter. I've melted an amount of cheese that I'd easily eat as a snack, had the cheese oil melt out--and had trouble finishing, the separated oil is much more inhibitory to a binge.

Anyways, point I wanted to get to is, carbs are both stimulating and satiating, so is protein, so is fat, there's no reason to suppose that the "most satiating macronutrient" is going to be the same from person to person, it might depend both on individual metabolism, hey, maybe I've got a more or less compromised glp-1 or ghrelin secretion than you, or something, and on our approach/exposure to food.
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  #5   ^
Old Mon, Sep-10-18, 11:32
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
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Posts: 13,093
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

Veggies--I find myself an accidental dirty carnivore, no plants except for spices and various caffeinated beverages. Did it because my Dad wanted to try it and it's easier for him if we both do it. I have sort of a bum shoulder, used to take niacin for it but had to cycle on and off, once I went ketogenic I stopped needing the niacin, but it would occasionally be a bit sore working out. Much better when I dropped the plants, don't why.
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  #6   ^
Old Mon, Sep-10-18, 11:33
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is online now
Posts: 9,418
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/188/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 44%
Location: Texas
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I've recently rethought the amount of veggies I was eating after learning that fiber (I already don't eat shells and hulls for fiber) and most all of raw veggies, which without cooking, mostly ends up in the Colon.

The thing about Low-carb that now I realized is, I have lowered my fiber intake by eliminating the big bad white carbs and eating lower carb veggies with no ill effects.

Last edited by Meme#1 : Mon, Sep-10-18 at 15:02.
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  #7   ^
Old Mon, Sep-10-18, 14:11
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 2,454
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

I agree, Jean. This is why I like to confirm things for myself with an N=1 approach, as many react very differently with the same approach or consuming the same foods.
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