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  #1   ^
Old Sat, May-08-04, 11:12
poisinivy's Avatar
poisinivy poisinivy is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,509
 
Plan: Jenny Craig
Stats: 240.4/194/165 Female 5'6" - large frame
BF:soft/round/cuddly
Progress: 62%
Location: Washington, DC
Default I know why refeeds "theoretically" work

I know now why refeeds "in theory" work. I've been doing a lot of research on the science behind atkins. Compiling my own data I've come up with a hypothesis that I've tested. Let me first explain the science behind Atkins:
*there are 4 forms of fuel
1. sugar - which gets converted to glucose, is used first as energy and excess is converted to fat (adipose)
2. carbohydrates - which also get converted to glucose and are used second for energy and excess is also converted to fat (adipose)
3. protein - which I don't totally understand because it's used slightly differently than the other forms of energy because it has a lot of nutrients that the body needs and is used for that and excess is used for energy and what's left over turns to fat.
4. fat - this is the last to be used for energy and although it has many benefits because of society's diet today rarely are the benefits seen as it is usually just stored as fat.

Calories are actually just energy...kilojewels (sp) I believe is what they are called. It takes 4gs of carbs to convert 1 calorie to energy, same with protein. Fat however uses 9gs to convert that same calorie to 1 kilojewel of energy. In other words it takes more than twice as much fat to burn the same calorie as carbs or protein. So lets go back to the Atkins theory. The idea is to decrease your carbs and almost rid your body completely of sugar leaving only protein and fat as your main forms of fuel. As for the protein, it has a lot of nutrients that your body needs, your muscles, brain function and a number of other things that as a science master I'd know and understand and the rest is used for fuel. As for fat it is what we call a very inefficient form of fuel....the word ineficient I know generally carries negative connotations but in this case they are positive. If fat is inefficient then it must take a great deal more to give you the same amount of energy as a carbohydrate. As a matter of fact as I stated earlier it takes more than twice as much fat to burn the same calorie, 9gs to carbs 4gs to be exact. So, lets apply this in a loose theory. Lets just say to keep things simple that it takes 1000gs of carbs to maintaine your body......if it takes twice as much fat to do that same thing then it must take in excess of 2000gs of fats to also maintaine that same body. Now......here's the clincher. Our whole pyramid and diet plan is based on a carbohydrate diet. Therefore when they tell us it takes 2000 calories to maintain your body, they are referring to a diet made up of the much more efficient carbohydrate not fat. If that same pyramid was based on the fat gram, it would read 4000 calories to maintain your wieght right, because it takes more than twice as many grams of fat than carbs. Going back to our 1000g theory, lets now say that your body would go into starvation mode if you ate less than 800 calories (remember these are carb calories) then it that must meant that if your were existing mostly on fat it would take 1600 fat calories to go into starvation mode. Now lets flip that around. To lose weight we need a calorie deficit of at least 500 calories per day totalling 3500 for a week to lose 1 lb of weight. My personal metabolic rate (roughly) is 2700. To lose 1 lb of weight I need my calories per day to be 2200 right (minus 500). But if I've removed the majority of the carbs and all of the sugar from my diet and fat is what I'm primarily living off of I could actually consume 4400 calories a day and still lose 1lb of weight a week. Obviously those of us that have been doing atkins for a while know how hard it is to even reach 2500 calories a day without the assistance of our old time favorites like donuts, cake and candy. But lets say we do reach 2500 calories per day. A few things happen:
1. we are not even close to starvation mode
2. we are eating the amount of calories our body needs to fuel itself
3. that 2500 calories mostly from fat is only equivalent to 1250 calories in carbs.........here's the answer now so listen closely. Our body is getting the right amount of calories but those calories make our body work harder (hmmm, sounds a lot like the theory of exercise doesn't it) those calories are used up twice as fast to energize our bodies......so it's like we only ate 1250 calories of carbohydrates without ever depriving our bodies of the daily calorie intake it really needs. In my opinion that leads me to believe that we actually need even more fat to maitain our weight in the form of more fat calories which is why:
*we tend to be real tired on atkins, especially those of us that decrease our calore intake (not enough fuel for our bodies in addition to put in our bodies into starvation mode which make them stretch each calorie to the furthest) because it takes more than twice us much fat calories to give our bodies the same amount of fuel as those carbohydrate calories.

So, I tested this out......for the last week, starting Monday I've upped my calories to between 1800 and 2300 calories a day (very hard I admit and I tend to be full quite often). Thursday up .5 pounds, Friday up another .5 pounds (I really believe this was my body readjusting itelsf to the new eating and form of fuel) now Saturday down 3 lbs. To make this work, you have to eat lots of fat......like "wife" you need to cook your foods as often as possible in oils and fats and you also need to make sure that 99% of your carbs are coming solely from veggies. You cannot skip meals (run out of fuel too fast and talk about the fatigue and weakness) and need to have many snaks in the form of fat/veggie carb combos (one of my favorites mashed cauliflower with lots of butter and salt n pepprer). One last thing, this in no way takes into account those that have dieted so often that they have totally ranked their systems, lost thier gallbladders, ect. I have not had that problem and so I do not know how this would work with those, although personally I believe that it would work for them too..........with a weight gain at first as their systems fixed and righted themselves and then a steady weightloss. But like I said I only know for sure that if you haven't yo-yo dieted too much this will probably work for you. Do some research.........it all points to what I'm saying, which is exactly where I formed this theory from.

So......originally my thread spoke of why a refeed works and some of you have probably already figured out why. For those that haven't.....you've been on the atkins for a few weeks only consuming about 1400 calories a day in starvation mode (only 700 in fat energy) and suddenly you refeed on your favorite foods which consequently not only have a high carbohydrate content but also have a high fat content. These two things and the increase in calories throw your body out of starvation mode and allows your body to let go of some of that stored fat it was holding onto so dilligently. The reason why I say this works in theory is two things:
1. the carbs mixed with the fat cause cravings and a refeed often turns into an all out binge if not complete departure from the atkins diet
2. too much of the carbs (get burned first remember and it only takes 4 of them for the same amount of energy) and the fat gets stored once again.

So, there it is. I know many people won't agree with me and that's cool. But make sure you do your research and really know what you're talking about. I'm starting to realize that weightloss isn't magic or a hunch, it's science and you gotta know and understand the science to really make it work for you.

One last thing......our theory of a calorie is a calorie is a calorie is now thrown out the window because science tells us it takes 2+ calories of fat to perform the same amount of work as 1 calorie of carbohydrate.

Last edited by poisinivy : Sat, May-08-04 at 11:24.
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  #2   ^
Old Sat, May-08-04, 12:11
adkpam's Avatar
adkpam adkpam is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,320
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 185/151/145 Female 67 inches
BF:
Progress: 85%
Location: Adirondack Mountains, NY
Default

I looooove this!
It sounds very well reasoned to me, and I've been saying since I started that the whole "calorie is a calore" thing is bogus, because my mother tripled her calories on Atkins and started losing weight. You've explained why!

I'm going to be saving this explanation because I find it so intriguing. And why extra fat can be very helpful to people in a stall.

Thanks for the use of your brain...

and keep us posted on your progress!
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  #3   ^
Old Sat, May-08-04, 12:12
hey_Neener's Avatar
hey_Neener hey_Neener is offline
Whoosh me baby!
Posts: 1,870
 
Plan: Atkin's
Stats: 276/258/180 Female 66 inches
BF:Yep, gots to go
Progress: 19%
Location: Spokane, WA
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I think you need to add Leptin into your theory. I was under the impression that to correct Leptin levels, you need to refeed occassionally with high glucose/very low fat and high calorie to avoid the stall caused by having too many fat cells emptying their contents rapidly as you lose weight. The high glucose stimulates fat storage, resettting Leptin triggers.
I'd go for high sugar cereal and non-fat milk on a refeed-and for only 24-48 hours at a time-then back to induction, and only after a significant stall. They are hard to rebound from.
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  #4   ^
Old Sat, May-08-04, 12:46
poisinivy's Avatar
poisinivy poisinivy is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,509
 
Plan: Jenny Craig
Stats: 240.4/194/165 Female 5'6" - large frame
BF:soft/round/cuddly
Progress: 62%
Location: Washington, DC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hey_Neener
I think you need to add Leptin into your theory.

This is my first time hearing of this.......it does correlate with my thoughts that suddenly upping your carbs for a meal or two kinda jumpstarts your system bakc into weightloss when it's in a stall. Back to the research...which I happen to love. Thanks for the great feedback!!!
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  #5   ^
Old Sat, May-08-04, 12:50
hey_Neener's Avatar
hey_Neener hey_Neener is offline
Whoosh me baby!
Posts: 1,870
 
Plan: Atkin's
Stats: 276/258/180 Female 66 inches
BF:Yep, gots to go
Progress: 19%
Location: Spokane, WA
Default

No problem. I studied all that stuff myself when I first started last year. I've been on hiatus from the boards since January, but school's out for the summer and I'm back. Check out this link on Leptin.
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  #6   ^
Old Sat, May-08-04, 13:00
jbird's Avatar
jbird jbird is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 535
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 130.5/119.5/115 Female 4'10.5"
BF:32%/32%/22%
Progress: 71%
Location: West Virginia
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Wow......my brain hurts.

Anyway makes sense; however, I will not refeed ever because I am too afraid I'll lose all control, but I will continue to stay at my 1700-1800 calories a day even on my 4'10"/120 pound frame and be extremely happy on Atkins.

Jenny
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  #7   ^
Old Sat, May-08-04, 13:02
poisinivy's Avatar
poisinivy poisinivy is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,509
 
Plan: Jenny Craig
Stats: 240.4/194/165 Female 5'6" - large frame
BF:soft/round/cuddly
Progress: 62%
Location: Washington, DC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by adkpam
I looooove this!
I've been saying since I started that the whole "calorie is a calore" thing is bogus, because my mother tripled her calories on Atkins and started losing weight. You've explained why!

Thanks for the positive feedback Pam. I had expected my first feedbacks to be critical ones and am pleasantly surprised with it so far. I really do think this works and will keep anyone who wants to hear it in the know of my progress.
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  #8   ^
Old Sat, May-08-04, 13:07
PecanPie PecanPie is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 507
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 273.5/236.0/160 Female 5' 4"
BF:
Progress: 33%
Location: Denver, CO, USA
Default

Interesting - I have been testing a few things myself this week - and yesterday decided I would try upping the fat - a lot - which means upping the calories. I figure the worst thing that can happen is I will gain a few pounds for the week - but since I really do think I am learning a lot about how my body processes food and can use that information to be successful even if the worst happens I will have learned something important to help with the journey. Thanks again - this is worth thinking about - but of course for everyone it's a YMMV and we all have to ultimately decide what works for ourselves.

PecanPie
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  #9   ^
Old Sat, May-08-04, 13:10
hey_Neener's Avatar
hey_Neener hey_Neener is offline
Whoosh me baby!
Posts: 1,870
 
Plan: Atkin's
Stats: 276/258/180 Female 66 inches
BF:Yep, gots to go
Progress: 19%
Location: Spokane, WA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbird
Anyway makes sense; however, I will not refeed ever because I am too afraid I'll lose all control, but I will continue to stay at my 1700-1800 calories a day even on my 4'10"/120 pound frame and be extremely happy on Atkins.

Jenny


Jenny,
Be careful and never say never. You'd be surprised what you'll try once you start your stall. The stall hits us all, except perhaps for the very lucky few. We all want to believe we can stay faithful for life because of the rapid results we see in the beginning. When you hit a stall that lasts several months, frustration sets in and then start the attempts at refeeds, fat fasts, plan swaps, etc. all in a desperate attempt to get the scale moving again. (I suppose some even resort to gasp exercise!) Keep the faith!
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  #10   ^
Old Sat, May-08-04, 13:10
Vanity3's Avatar
Vanity3 Vanity3 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 828
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 265/247.5/145 Female 5'4.25"
BF:50%/46%/15%
Progress: 15%
Location: West Hartford, CT
Default

I kinda understood the refeed process, and I even knew the 4 g carb=1 calorie vs 9g fat = 1 calorie science. But to put it all together, it makes perfect sense. Now if i ever stall, I'll try upping my fat intake instead of lowering my calorie intake.

U are a genius, Dr. Atkins would be proud!
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  #11   ^
Old Sat, May-08-04, 13:15
lynneuk lynneuk is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 281
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 265/208.5/165 Female 64 inches
BF:
Progress: 56%
Location: Upstate NY
Default

Very interesting theory. Seems to make a lot of sense to me.
I am prepared to give it a try as my loss has slowed to a crawl to say the least.
If it works I'll be your best friend for life!
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  #12   ^
Old Sat, May-08-04, 13:30
AFwife's Avatar
AFwife AFwife is offline
PuertoRican Princess
Posts: 16,809
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 299/236/135 Female 5'3
BF:
Progress: 38%
Location: South Carolina
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by poisinivy
I know now why refeeds "in theory" work. I've been doing a lot of research on the science behind atkins. Compiling my own data I've come up with a hypothesis that I've tested. Let me first explain the science behind Atkins:
*there are 4 forms of fuel
1. sugar - which gets converted to glucose, is used first as energy and excess is converted to fat (adipose)
2. carbohydrates - which also get converted to glucose and are used second for energy and excess is also converted to fat (adipose)
3. protein - which I don't totally understand because it's used slightly differently than the other forms of energy because it has a lot of nutrients that the body needs and is used for that and excess is used for energy and what's left over turns to fat.
4. fat - this is the last to be used for energy and although it has many benefits because of society's diet today rarely are the benefits seen as it is usually just stored as fat.

Calories are actually just energy...kilojewels (sp) I believe is what they are called. It takes 4gs of carbs to convert 1 calorie to energy, same with protein. Fat however uses 9gs to convert that same calorie to 1 kilojewel of energy. In other words it takes more than twice as much fat to burn the same calorie as carbs or protein. So lets go back to the Atkins theory. The idea is to decrease your carbs and almost rid your body completely of sugar leaving only protein and fat as your main forms of fuel. As for the protein, it has a lot of nutrients that your body needs, your muscles, brain function and a number of other things that as a science master I'd know and understand and the rest is used for fuel. As for fat it is what we call a very inefficient form of fuel....the word ineficient I know generally carries negative connotations but in this case they are positive. If fat is inefficient then it must take a great deal more to give you the same amount of energy as a carbohydrate. As a matter of fact as I stated earlier it takes more than twice as much fat to burn the same calorie, 9gs to carbs 4gs to be exact. So, lets apply this in a loose theory. Lets just say to keep things simple that it takes 1000gs of carbs to maintaine your body......if it takes twice as much fat to do that same thing then it must take in excess of 2000gs of fats to also maintaine that same body. Now......here's the clincher. Our whole pyramid and diet plan is based on a carbohydrate diet. Therefore when they tell us it takes 2000 calories to maintain your body, they are referring to a diet made up of the much more efficient carbohydrate not fat. If that same pyramid was based on the fat gram, it would read 4000 calories to maintain your wieght right, because it takes more than twice as many grams of fat than carbs. Going back to our 1000g theory, lets now say that your body would go into starvation mode if you ate less than 800 calories (remember these are carb calories) then it that must meant that if your were existing mostly on fat it would take 1600 fat calories to go into starvation mode. Now lets flip that around. To lose weight we need a calorie deficit of at least 500 calories per day totalling 3500 for a week to lose 1 lb of weight. My personal metabolic rate (roughly) is 2700. To lose 1 lb of weight I need my calories per day to be 2200 right (minus 500). But if I've removed the majority of the carbs and all of the sugar from my diet and fat is what I'm primarily living off of I could actually consume 4400 calories a day and still lose 1lb of weight a week. Obviously those of us that have been doing atkins for a while know how hard it is to even reach 2500 calories a day without the assistance of our old time favorites like donuts, cake and candy. But lets say we do reach 2500 calories per day. A few things happen:
1. we are not even close to starvation mode
2. we are eating the amount of calories our body needs to fuel itself
3. that 2500 calories mostly from fat is only equivalent to 1250 calories in carbs.........here's the answer now so listen closely. Our body is getting the right amount of calories but those calories make our body work harder (hmmm, sounds a lot like the theory of exercise doesn't it) those calories are used up twice as fast to energize our bodies......so it's like we only ate 1250 calories of carbohydrates without ever depriving our bodies of the daily calorie intake it really needs. In my opinion that leads me to believe that we actually need even more fat to maitain our weight in the form of more fat calories which is why:
*we tend to be real tired on atkins, especially those of us that decrease our calore intake (not enough fuel for our bodies in addition to put in our bodies into starvation mode which make them stretch each calorie to the furthest) because it takes more than twice us much fat calories to give our bodies the same amount of fuel as those carbohydrate calories.

So, I tested this out......for the last week, starting Monday I've upped my calories to between 1800 and 2300 calories a day (very hard I admit and I tend to be full quite often). Thursday up .5 pounds, Friday up another .5 pounds (I really believe this was my body readjusting itelsf to the new eating and form of fuel) now Saturday down 3 lbs. To make this work, you have to eat lots of fat......like "wife" you need to cook your foods as often as possible in oils and fats and you also need to make sure that 99% of your carbs are coming solely from veggies. You cannot skip meals (run out of fuel too fast and talk about the fatigue and weakness) and need to have many snaks in the form of fat/veggie carb combos (one of my favorites mashed cauliflower with lots of butter and salt n pepprer). One last thing, this in no way takes into account those that have dieted so often that they have totally ranked their systems, lost thier gallbladders, ect. I have not had that problem and so I do not know how this would work with those, although personally I believe that it would work for them too..........with a weight gain at first as their systems fixed and righted themselves and then a steady weightloss. But like I said I only know for sure that if you haven't yo-yo dieted too much this will probably work for you. Do some research.........it all points to what I'm saying, which is exactly where I formed this theory from.

So......originally my thread spoke of why a refeed works and some of you have probably already figured out why. For those that haven't.....you've been on the atkins for a few weeks only consuming about 1400 calories a day in starvation mode (only 700 in fat energy) and suddenly you refeed on your favorite foods which consequently not only have a high carbohydrate content but also have a high fat content. These two things and the increase in calories throw your body out of starvation mode and allows your body to let go of some of that stored fat it was holding onto so dilligently. The reason why I say this works in theory is two things:
1. the carbs mixed with the fat cause cravings and a refeed often turns into an all out binge if not complete departure from the atkins diet
2. too much of the carbs (get burned first remember and it only takes 4 of them for the same amount of energy) and the fat gets stored once again.

So, there it is. I know many people won't agree with me and that's cool. But make sure you do your research and really know what you're talking about. I'm starting to realize that weightloss isn't magic or a hunch, it's science and you gotta know and understand the science to really make it work for you.

One last thing......our theory of a calorie is a calorie is a calorie is now thrown out the window because science tells us it takes 2+ calories of fat to perform the same amount of work as 1 calorie of carbohydrate.







Just when I thought no one would figure it out! You're one smart cookie.
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  #13   ^
Old Sat, May-08-04, 13:32
CandidCam's Avatar
CandidCam CandidCam is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 141
 
Plan: Atkins/Keto/Volek/Phinney
Stats: 153/144.6/125 Female 63.5 inches
BF:27.4%
Progress: 30%
Location: West Michigan
Default

This is very intesting to me, as I am in the middle of a 2 day refeed. I had all the classic symptoms of low Leptin levels, so today I am eating nothing but "cr~p" carbs (PB Cap'n Crunch, fat free oatmeal raisin cookies, Gatorade, jelly beans, low-fat ice cream bars) and tomorrow will gradually decrease my carb levels and increase the fat and protein. Starting Monday I will be back to at least a week of strict Induction.

I hope it works, since I feel like utter shite and REALLY want protein and fat, right now (as well as LC veggies). Everyone warned me that I would crave more carbs and sugar, but that is SO not the case. I'm tired, queasy, irritable, depressed...yuck!

I find it interesting that the recommendation is to eat more calories while on Atkins, since there are still so many folks who encourage us to break through stalls by eating less calories and carbs. I think too many months of eating too few calories and staying under 30 carbs is what messed-up my Leptin/Glycogen levels (and in the past weeks I have been so hungry, which was never the case on this WOE, before). I really hope this refeed (and future occasional ones, if it works) is the trick to reset things and get my losses moving again.

Kirsten
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  #14   ^
Old Sat, May-08-04, 13:34
picaboo's Avatar
picaboo picaboo is offline
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Posts: 3,370
 
Plan: LC
Stats: 200/000/000 Female 5.5
BF:
Progress: 100%
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....its SO long...............
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  #15   ^
Old Sat, May-08-04, 13:35
CandidCam's Avatar
CandidCam CandidCam is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 141
 
Plan: Atkins/Keto/Volek/Phinney
Stats: 153/144.6/125 Female 63.5 inches
BF:27.4%
Progress: 30%
Location: West Michigan
Default

I should add that in earlier months I could always get mid-range results on ketostix, but in the past few weeks I could reduce my carbs to below 15 and still show no signs of ketosis--even though I was starving at 1400 calories...that's interesting.

Kirsten
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