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  #1   ^
Old Tue, Apr-06-21, 17:28
Bob-a-rama's Avatar
Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
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Default If these folks are right, Paleo people should be carnivores and eat little else.

If these folks are right, Paleo people should be carnivores and eat little else. No veggies, just high fat meat.

It seems that during the paleolithic era humankind ate just about nothing else but meat.

This also says those veggie people who tell us we are not supposed to eat meat, are waaaaaay off base.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-2...tle-else-study/

Quote:
For 2 million years, humans ate meat and little else — study

Tel Aviv University researchers says Stone Age humans were apex predators, only moved to more plant-based diet 85,000 years ago

Israeli researchers studying the nutrition of Stone Age humans say the species spent some 2 million years as hyper-carnivorous “apex predators” that ate mostly the meat of large animals.

The study at Tel Aviv University, in collaboration with Portugal’s University of Minho, challenges views that prehistoric humans were omnivores and that their eating habits can be compared to those of modern humans, TAU said in a statement.

“Our study addresses a very great current controversy – both scientific and non-scientific,” said Prof. Ran Barkai of TAU’s archeology department, one of the researchers. “We propose a picture that is unprecedented in its inclusiveness and breadth, which clearly shows that humans were initially apex predators, who specialized in hunting large animals.”

The results, which were published in the Yearbook of the American Physical Anthropology Association, have implications not only for how we see the past, but also for our modern diets, Barkai maintained. He cited the fad Paleolithic diet, which assumes prehistoric humans ate vegetables, fruits, nuts, roots, and meat — making those foods the most natural for consumption.

But the research suggests that only the last item on that list was on cave dwellers’ menu.

“For many people today, the Paleolithic diet is a critical issue, not only with regard to the past, but also concerning the present and future,” Barkai said. “It is hard to convince a devout vegetarian that his/her ancestors were not vegetarians, and people tend to confuse personal beliefs with scientific reality. Our study is both multidisciplinary and interdisciplinary.”

The researchers blended genetics, metabolism, physiology, morphology and archaeology of tool development to resolve the question of whether Stone Age humans were specialized carnivores or generalist omnivores.

“So far, attempts to reconstruct the diet of stone-age humans were mostly based on comparisons to 20th-century hunter-gatherer societies,” explained fellow TAU researcher Miki Ben-Dor. “This comparison is futile, however, because two million years ago hunter-gatherer societies could hunt and consume elephants and other large animals – while today’s hunter-gatherers do not have access to such bounty.”

The team examined the acidity of our stomachs, which is high even for predators, indicating a meat diet in which the acid would provide protection from harmful bacteria.

They also looked at fat’s structure in human cells: Similar to predators, human fat is stored in large numbers of small fat cells, whereas in omnivores it tends to be the other way around.

They further cited the human genome as evidence.

“For example, geneticists have concluded that ‘areas of the human genome were closed off to enable a fat-rich diet, while in chimpanzees, areas of the genome were opened to enable a sugar-rich diet,’” Ben-Dor said.

Further archaeological evidence supports their hypothesis, they argued, including the study of stable isotopes in the bones of prehistoric humans that point to consumption of meat with a high fat content, likely from large animals.

“Most probably, like in current-day predators, hunting itself was a focal human activity throughout most of human evolution,” Ben-Dor said. “Other archaeological evidence — like the fact that specialized tools for obtaining and processing vegetable foods only appeared in the later stages of human evolution — also supports the centrality of large animals in the human diet, throughout most of human history.”


The researchers believe humans only began moving toward a diet that is much more plant-based some 85,000 years ago, possibly as a result of a decline in larger animals as a food source.

“As Darwin discovered, the adaptation of species to obtaining and digesting their food is the main source of evolutionary changes, and thus the claim that humans were apex predators throughout most of their development may provide a broad basis for fundamental insights on the biological and cultural evolution of humans,” Barkai said.


So IMO that means the paleo people if they truly want to be paleo, should eat almost nothing but meat.

But then the paleo diet isn't really paleo any more than the Mediterranean diet is Mediterranean. I've been to Italy, Spain, and other Mediterranean countries and there is a lot of starch on the table, breads, macaroni, rice, etc.

They are just names for popular diets, and that's OK.

Bob

Note: the bold font is my stressing.
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  #2   ^
Old Tue, Apr-06-21, 17:58
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GRB5111 GRB5111 is online now
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Very interesting article though not surprising. Thanks for the link. Depending on where our species lived, the most nutrient dense options were usually on 4 legs or moving with fins or 2 legs with 2 wings.
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  #3   ^
Old Tue, Apr-06-21, 21:01
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Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is online now
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Interesting.

A small point of logic. Veggie sources were and are readily available in many woodlands. With plenty of Edible plants. And these are not the cultivated types we eat as normal fare today. Those that eat off the land have a different list than what is at our groceries stores. I bet humans knew what to eat 2 million years ago,just as native aborigines of Australia know today. And if I'm remembering correctly Outzi Man had a meal that contained vegetable matter in the hours before his death. Granted he didn't live 2million yrs ago, but a real window.

Hazelnut trees are wild in my area, and the nuts are a reasonable size for eating. The European varieties that have been domesticated , meaning selected by humans, do have bigger nuts.

Pawpaw grows wild over a large portion of eastern US. Who would pass on a naturally large fruit? And alpine strawberries.....as wild as strawberries get. I would pick tiny berries at the top of a slope while hiking coastal Maine. I'm sure native Americans used these for food. The best tasting strawberry small enough to fit in a thimble.

The list of wild edibles that I am aware of in north America is long.

I'm not saying meat was not significantly important. Just it wasn't there only fare.

I blame big government for it's misguided interference in our food choices, notably in the 70's and 80's thru even today. What a disastrous result. 25%obesity, or is it more, resulting in 500,000 plus Covid deaths because of poor underlying health conditions mostly related to insulin resistance due to high carb diet.

Last edited by Ms Arielle : Wed, Apr-07-21 at 05:23.
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  #4   ^
Old Wed, Apr-07-21, 04:00
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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This kind of knowledge was everywhere when I was in school. It was a given.

It took vegan propaganda to upend the "common knowledge." But the science remains.
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  #5   ^
Old Wed, Apr-07-21, 12:52
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Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
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The problem with paleolithic wild plant foods like hazelnuts is they are only available for a short time per year.

And there are no cave paintings of people planting or tilling fields.

I don't know if the study is 100% accurate or not, and although I'm eating keto, I'm not giving up my peanuts, cashews. macadamias, cheese, and so on.

Bob
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  #6   ^
Old Wed, Apr-07-21, 14:06
Zei Zei is offline
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I think of humans as facultative carnivores rather than omnivores, as there are nutrients (B12 being most well known) that either cannot be obtained at all from plants or not in very absorbable or directly useful form, such as DHA and EPA omega 3's (ALA from plants not being very readily convertible to the former two) or real vitamin A, which plant beta carotene doesn't easily convert into, and so forth. So in nature (absence of manufactured supplements) humans must consume animal foods to survive and thrive. If I understand the technical definition of omnivore correctly it refers to an animal that can eat plants or animals, doesn't matter which or either, it's all good, whereas the facultative carnivore must have some animal foods but in addition can also eat some plants as well. Since coming to that realization I've put a lot more emphasis on animal and less on plant foods in my personal diet and seem to be doing quite well with it.
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  #7   ^
Old Wed, Apr-07-21, 14:53
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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35,000 years ago humans were only barely in Europe. 2 million years ago were talking about Africa only. I don't know what the climate was like that long ago, but I doubt there were woodlands or hazelnuts in Africa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early...%20to%20Eurasia.

Last edited by Nancy LC : Thu, Apr-08-21 at 07:42.
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  #8   ^
Old Wed, Apr-07-21, 15:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-a-rama
The problem with paleolithic wild plant foods like hazelnuts is they are only available for a short time per year.

Bob

Not sure it's a problem at all. When humans needed certain food types, they were available. Today, we eat anything we want in quantity all year round.
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  #9   ^
Old Thu, Apr-08-21, 05:06
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zei
... the facultative carnivore must have some animal foods but in addition can also eat some plants as well. Since coming to that realization I've put a lot more emphasis on animal and less on plant foods in my personal diet and seem to be doing quite well with it.


For me, Dr. Georgia Ede's extensive documenting of the downside of plant foods was very influential on how I eat today. Her explaining how bio-availability affects possible vitamin absorption was enlightening... and soothing.

Re-examining why I never seemed to add vegetables matter in the types and amounts "I should" helped me discover how lectins and fiber wreaked its own havoc on a system that still sensitive from years of gluten abuse.
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  #10   ^
Old Thu, Apr-08-21, 12:23
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Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
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Quote:
The researchers blended genetics, metabolism, physiology, morphology and archaeology of tool development to resolve the question of whether Stone Age humans were specialized carnivores or generalist omnivores.


Genetics, metabolism, physiology and morphology I have to take at face value. Assuming they know their craft.

But tools for hunting but not gathering, cave paintings for hunting but not gathering, hunted animal residue in caves but not vegetable food, seem to me support at least a mostly carnivore diet.

Also I know that carnivores are smarter than herbivores. Nobody says 'smart as a cow', 'sly as a rabbit', or attributes much intelligence to herbivores.

The fact that humans can live on a carnivore diet without supplementation, but not a vegan diet without supplementation is known.

Since the results were published in the Yearbook of the American Physical Anthropology Association I suspect it's open for peer review to study.

Me? I don't subscribe to any 'named' diet other than Keto, because it works for me. I do eat nuts, which are seeds, but seldom eat fruit or vegetables. I eat a lot of dairy too. I'm definitely not Paleo or Mediterranean.

I had a pizza on a low carb flax/millet flatbread for lunch with a little bit of tomato (fruit) sauce on it.

I'm not promoting an exclusive carnivorous diet or anything else, just reporting what I read and found interesting and related to low carb living.

Bob
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  #11   ^
Old Thu, Apr-08-21, 18:06
Verbena Verbena is online now
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Quote:
But tools for hunting but not gathering, cave paintings for hunting but not gathering, hunted animal residue in caves but not vegetable food, seem to me support at least a mostly carnivore diet.


My first thought here is that tools for hunting would probably involve stone/flint, formed in some way, indicating to archeologists that they were tools of some sort, whereas digging sticks for foraging tubers etc were, in fact, sticks, and not likely to stick around long enough for an archeologist to discover.
Cave paintings were most likely done by men - maybe not, but likely a higher status occupation for a higher status person, ie male. History written by the conqueror (or stronger, more dominant): men hunted, men painted, hunting got preference in the paintings. Also, hunting would have been more dangerous; bringing down a mammoth would have had more “story value” than filling a basket with hazelnuts.
Hunted animal residue would include (almost exclusively after so many millennia) bones, which fossilize. Leftover wild strawberries not so much.
Just a few thoughts, not arguments. My hunch is that greater value was likely put on meat, but the veggie/fruit gathering was a helpful adjunct, especially when the hunting didn’t go well.

Last edited by Verbena : Thu, Apr-08-21 at 18:33.
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  #12   ^
Old Thu, Apr-08-21, 18:35
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deirdra deirdra is offline
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I saw a documentary on Ötzi the Iceman that noted he had some recent injuries not caused by a fall. His stone knife was well worn and his stone arrowheads were broken, and he lacked blanks to make new ones. Earlier examination of Ötzi's remains revealed a deep, recent stab wound to his right hand. They speculated that he was escaping over the mountains to get away from someone. Plants might have been the only things he could grab to eat on the run & he'd need to make arrowheads & arrows before he could hunt.
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  #13   ^
Old Thu, Apr-08-21, 21:40
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I recall reading someplace the idea that big mega fauna game (mammoths etc.) would have had sufficient body fat to support an entirely carnivore diet in humans but that modern animals such as bison do not (I assume not referring to blubber-rich arctic marine animals such as hunted by Inuit). Since humans require a proportion of energy (fat or carbs) with their protein to avoid becoming ill from too much lone protein (think rabbit starvation) the writer believed the plant-gathering contributions of Native American women of the plains while men hunted meat would have made an essential dietary contribution to balance out the relatively lean protein to energy ratio with some starch. Not a problem nowadays with most "hunting" and "gathering" in grocery store aisles where animal meat, fat and organs are available in whatever proportions one might want.
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  #14   ^
Old Sat, Apr-10-21, 05:42
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zei
Since humans require a proportion of energy (fat or carbs) with their protein to avoid becoming ill from too much lone protein (think rabbit starvation) the writer believed the plant-gathering contributions of Native American women of the plains while men hunted meat would have made an essential dietary contribution to balance out the relatively lean protein to energy ratio with some starch. Not a problem nowadays with most "hunting" and "gathering" in grocery store aisles where animal meat, fat and organs are available in whatever proportions one might want.


I think that's an excellent point, since these groups were always called hunter/gatherers because they did both.

Also, pre-agriculture, there wasn't as much starch or sugar in the wild-gathered stuff like mushrooms, greens, and fruit which were likely more abundant than non-poisonous tubers or the elaborate prep required for grains.
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  #15   ^
Old Sat, Apr-10-21, 15:29
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Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
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But yet the genetics and physiological evidence says carnivore.

On the other hand, I wouldn't doubt that they were also opportunists and when the hunt didn't go well they supplemented with plants (probably nuts and possibly fruit).

One thing for sure, we weren't vegans, no matter what the veggie propagandists say.

Another though is that the nuts and fruit tend to ripen right before the starvation season (winter in the temperate zones and the dry season in the tropics). So when the fruit and nuts were plentiful they may have eaten them, put on a coat of fat, and it may have enabled them to have reserves for the lean times.

When bears come out of hibernation they are carnivores, but right before hibernation the fruit and berries ripen and they put on a lot of fat. It's not a stretch to think humans ate the fruit right before the lean season, but with no canning, freezing or other forms of storage, they certainly didn't eat fruit all year long.

But I'm not an expert in the field, just thinking out loud.

Bob
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