Active Low-Carber Forums
Atkins diet and low carb discussion provided free for information only, not as medical advice.
Home Plans Tips Recipes Tools Stories Studies Products
Active Low-Carber Forums
A sugar-free zone


Welcome to the Active Low-Carber Forums.
Support for Atkins diet, Protein Power, Neanderthin (Paleo Diet), CAD/CALP, Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution and any other healthy low-carb diet or plan, all are welcome in our lowcarb community. Forget starvation and fad diets -- join the healthy eating crowd! You may register by clicking here, it's free!

Go Back   Active Low-Carber Forums > Main Low-Carb Diets Forums & Support > Low-Carb Studies & Research / Media Watch > LC Research/Media
User Name
Password
FAQ Members Calendar Search Gallery My P.L.A.N. Survey


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   ^
Old Wed, Sep-27-23, 00:54
Demi's Avatar
Demi Demi is offline
Posts: 26,768
 
Plan: Muscle Centric
Stats: 238/153/160 Female 5'10"
BF:
Progress: 109%
Location: UK
Default Is an All-Meat Diet What Nature Intended?

Quote:
Is an All-Meat Diet What Nature Intended?

The hyper-carnivory movement conjures a time when men hunted and lunch was literally on the hoof. What does the research say?


n August, 2021, a new, shirtless figure appeared on Instagram and TikTok. With a great shaggy beard and muscles the approximate size and color of ripe pumpkins, he was part cowboy, part Conan the Barbarian. “I’m Brian Johnson,” he said in his third Instagram video. “My family and tribe call me Liver King.” He is the owner of Ancestral Supplements—which sells desiccated organ meat in capsule form—and a walking marketing campaign.

Within eight months, the Liver King had amassed a million and a half followers on Instagram and nearly three million on TikTok. He was mellow at first, but he embraced the new persona, growing crasser and more meme-worthy, and less clothed. (On a podcast in March, 2022, he said that the Liver King “broke out of his cage, and he fucking ate Brian Johnson.”) Most of his videos centered on eating meat, lifting heavy stuff, and doing punishing, unorthodox workouts. His body, he said, was all natural, the product not of steroids but of exercise and eating animals.

The Liver King’s premise, a familiar one by now, is that we are mismatched with the modern world and that many of our problems can be solved by reconnecting with long-lost ways. He insists on nine ancestral tenets. These include reasonable suggestions like “sleep,” “move,” and “bond,” but, as he once explained, “if I tell you all nine, you don’t remember anything.” Instead, he boiled his recommendations down to one: “I say, ‘Eat liver, because liver is king.’ ” The best-selling, stand-alone product on ancestralsupplements.com is Grassfed Beef Liver.

The craze for eating the way our ancestors did is nothing new; it has been more than two decades since the exercise physiologist Loren Cordain published “The Paleo Diet: Lose Weight and Get Healthy by Eating the Food You Were Designed to Eat” (2001), helping launch a billion-dollar industry. But the Liver King, along with a crew of other “meatfluencers,” has pushed paleo to an extreme of carnivory. They maintain that humans evolved to kill animals similar in size and constitution to domesticated cattle, to devour their organs (often raw), and to eat vegetables only in the most desperate of circumstances.

“Forget the leaves and fibrous tubers, we’re going hunting!” Paul Saladino (IG followers: 1.6M) writes in “The Carnivore Code,” the closest thing the new movement has to a manifesto. He asserts that “this approach appears to be exactly what our ancestors did.” (Saladino co-owns a supplement company, Heart & Soil, with the Liver King.) According to “The Carnivore Code,” plants are poison—they don’t want to be eaten, and have, as a result, evolved defensive chemicals designed to disrupt your digestion. Likewise, in “The Carnivore Diet,” Shawn Baker (IG followers: 319K) says that the most efficient way proto-humans got protein and calories was “to take down a big, fatty, energy-filled megafaunal animal.” They may have nibbled on the occasional fruit or nut, he admits, but the time and energy needed to get the same payoff would have been “greater by at least an order of magnitude.” The Liver King himself came up with the pithiest tagline: “Why eat vegetables when you can eat testicles?”

The notion of the meat-loving ancestor has a history. In the nineteen-fifties, the anatomist Raymond Dart, famous for discovering the first authentic fossil of an early African hominin, advanced what became known as the “killer ape” theory. Hunting, Dart thought, made us human. Our furry forebears climbed down from the trees to gorge on “the more attractive fleshy food that lay in the vast savannahs of the southern plains,” he wrote in the book “Adventures with the Missing Link” (1959). Elsewhere, he described the earliest hominins as “confirmed killers: carnivorous creatures that seized their quarries by violence, battered them to death, tore apart their broken bodies, dismembered them limb from limb, slaking their ravenous thirst with the hot blood of victims and greedily devouring livid writhing flesh.”

The killer-ape theory seeped into the mainstream. In 1955, Dart, then based at the University of the Witwatersrand, met the playwright Robert Ardrey, who was in South Africa for a reporting trip. Like a convert seeing the holy truth, Ardrey came away transformed. He was convinced that “the predatory transition” not only made us human but also explained what he described as “man’s bloody history, his eternal aggression, his irrational, self-destroying inexorable pursuit of death for death’s sake.” Ardrey was inspired to write the “Nature of Man” series, a set of books about human nature and evolution, published between 1961 and 1976. Time later named “African Genesis,” the first in the series, the most notable nonfiction book of the sixties. It was cited as an influence on Stanley Kubrick’s film “2001: A Space Odyssey” (1968), whose opening sequence showed primate violence as a turning point in the development of our species.

As Ardrey and Kubrick popularized the killer ape, anthropologists started to review the evidence. In 1966, at a meeting remembered in anthropological lore as the beginning of hunter-gatherer studies, seventy-five experts assembled in Chicago to synthesize our knowledge about foraging peoples. More than ninety-nine per cent of human history was spent without agriculture, the organizers figured, so it was worth documenting that way of life before it disappeared altogether. The symposium—and an associated volume that appeared two years later, both titled “Man the Hunter”—exemplified an obsession with hunting, meat-eating, and maleness. “Man” was meant to cover all humans; “hunter” was shorthand for anyone who subsisted on wild food. The book devoted an entire section to the role of hunting in human evolution. “Hunting is the master behavior pattern of the human species,” a chapter began. “It is the organizing activity which integrated the morphological, physiological, genetic, and intellectual aspects of the individual human organisms and of the population who compose our single species.”

The meeting also revealed problems with the meat-centric story. Dart had asserted that “all prehistoric men and the most primitive of living human beings are hunters, i.e., flesh eaters.” But contributors to “Man the Hunter” showed how one-sided this perspective was. The anthropologist Richard Lee reported that the !Kung, one of the so-called Bushman people of Southern Africa, got two-thirds of their calories from plants. Nor were they an exception. When he compared fifty-eight foraging societies from around the world, Lee found that half got the majority of their calories from plant foods; another eighteen relied mostly on fishing. Only eleven—less than a fifth—relied on hunting as their primary means of subsistence, and all but one were limited to either the highest or the lowest latitudes, far beyond our African homeland.

Since the publication of “Man the Hunter,” scientists have incorporated genomic as well as new archeological and paleontological methods into the study of diets from deep history. “The details differ and it’s easy to get lost in the weeds, but the overarching message from each is clear: we evolved as opportunistic omnivores,” Herman Pontzer, an evolutionary anthropologist at Duke University, writes in his recent book, “Burn.” It includes a takedown of paleo-style tropes, including carnivory. “Humans eat whatever’s available, which is almost always a mix of plants and animals (and honey).”

Pontzer shows just how far the consensus has shifted. Dart had insisted that Australopithecus, an early group of human ancestors, gulped down blood and guts, and yet scratch patterns on their molars suggest that they were lovers of tubers. Our more recent forebears ate plants, too, including ones vilified by paleo advocates. Consider Neanderthal diets, which Rebecca Wragg Sykes covers in vivid detail in “Kindred: Neanderthal Life, Love, Death and Art.” Neanderthals certainly ate big beasts; sites are filled with the bones of butchered bison and red deer—there are even indications that they took down mammoths. Yet Neanderthals living in warm, wet environs had tooth-wear patterns similar to those of agricultural peoples who eat lots of fibrous plants. Further evidence has come from investigating Neanderthals’ dental calculus—that is, from probing their plaque. Shortly before he died, an individual known as Shanidar 3 consumed dates, a lentil-like plant, and an unidentified tuber or root. The remains of two adults found in Belgium had traces of grasses and water-lily-root starches, suggesting that they had foraged for plant food. A sample from El Sidrón, in Spain, had no large-mammal DNA, but it turned up matches for pine, mushroom, and moss. Scattered morsels of prehistoric diets reveal an enduring taste for veggies.

No controlled studies have been published that validate the extravagant health claims made for the carnivore diet, but the meatfluencers are undeterred. In “The Carnivore Diet,” Shawn Baker lists eczema, depression, and fibromyalgia as “ailments that seem to respond positively to the carnivore diet.” The psychologist Jordan Peterson claims that a regimen of beef, salt, and water sharpened his thinking, cleared up his psoriasis, and eliminated his gum disease; his daughter, Mikhaila Peterson, insists that the same diet, supplemented with lamb, bison, and the occasional vodka or bourbon, cured her arthritis. In “The Complete Carnivore Diet for Beginners: Your Practical Guide to an All-Meat Lifestyle,” by Judy Cho (IG followers: 99.8K), carnivory is presented as a powerful remedy, with potential for alleviating depression, inflammation, eating disorders, and autoimmune issues.

Living off flesh alone is not easy, though, and Cho lays out suggestions for how to survive. Too much lean protein can cause problems, so make sure at least seventy per cent of your calories come from fat. Too little mastication can lead to constipation, so try to chew each piece of meat twenty to thirty times. Carnivores tend to have messed-up thirst cues, so drink more often than might feel natural. If you don’t like meat, stop snacking until you’re so hungry that it becomes appealing. To ease the transition, Cho offers various weeklong meal plans, along with helpful tables of permissible items and their nutritional statistics.

Some meatfluencers stress that human beings are animals and maintain that, if allowed to eat according to our animal instincts, we will favor a meaty menu. But the biologists David Raubenheimer and Stephen J. Simpson have been investigating animal alimentation for more than thirty years, and their new book, “Eat Like the Animals,” suggests that the meatfluencers have it all wrong. The authors started collaborating at Oxford, studying the eating preferences of locusts (grasshoppers, basically). First, they found that locusts preferred a certain ratio of carbohydrates to protein. When forced to live on foods higher in carbs and lower in protein, the insects ate a lot, becoming obese, and took longer to molt to adulthood. Conversely, when put on the insect version of the Atkins diet, they ate far fewer calories and were less likely to make it to adulthood. Second, they found that locusts with a decent food selection always ended up with near-identical ratios of protein and carbohydrates. “It’s as if, regardless of whether we were offered meat and pasta, or egg and bread, or beans and rice, or fish and potatoes, we always consumed the exact same balance of protein and carbs.” The critters somehow track which nutrients are in which foods.

These findings aren’t limited to insects. Raubenheimer and Simpson have since determined that the pattern is widespread across the animal kingdom, from beetles to baboons. And they have found that protein-loaded diets don’t just age animals; they kill them faster. “Our sexy, lean mice who ate high-protein, low-carb diets were the shortest lived of all,” they wrote of research published in 2014. “They made great-looking middle-aged corpses.”

Raubenheimer and Simpson find possible lessons here about human metabolism. As ultra-processed foods become stripped of protein, we behave like their protein-deprived locusts, becoming bloated on carbs. The elimination of fibre exacerbates the problem, they write, removing a brake that would otherwise slow eating, fill our stomachs, and curb hunger. At the same time, their work implies a Faustian allure to keto, carnivory, and other protein-heavy regimens. Cutting out carbs may make us skinnier and accelerate tissue development, shifting our bodies into a “growth and reproduction pathway.” But this comes at the expense of longevity. Repair and maintenance systems are sidelined. Misfolded proteins and other cellular junk accumulate. Pushed into overdrive, the body falters.

According to Raubenheimer and Simpson, two canonically healthy populations—the Okinawans, in Japan, who become centenarians at five times the rate of the rest of the developed world, and the Tsimané, of the Bolivian Amazon, who have the lowest incidence of cardiovascular disease ever recorded—consume diets that are, respectively, just nine and fourteen per cent protein. Most of their calories come from fibrous starches, such as plantain, cassava, or sweet potato. Raubenheimer and Simpson don’t propose that readers become Japanese islanders or remote Amazonians, and although they present suggested protein intakes, they warn against following them too strictly. Instead, they advise cutting out ultra-processed foods; finding good sources of fats, proteins, and fibre-loaded carbs; and listening to your appetite (unless you crave savory snack foods, which, they point out, trick the body into thinking that it’s getting protein when it’s not). “Our appetites are better gauges than our calculators,” they conclude.

Is it possible that the meatfluencers are only a muscly manifestation of a larger awareness—that our food system is failing us? In “Eating to Extinction,” Dan Saladino, who’s no relation to the carnivore Paul, urges readers to “consider what the past can teach us about how to inhabit the world now and in the future.” Taras Grescoe’s “The Lost Supper” argues, similarly, that when it comes to the plants and animals we’ve subsisted on for generations “the way forward lies in reviving them, cultivating them, herding them, and consuming them.”

For Grescoe and Saladino, the crisis of modernity is not, as many meatfluencers insist, an excess of seed oils, carbohydrates, and plant-defense chemicals but a collapse of diversity. Grescoe takes the reader to a twenty-three-thousand-year-old site in eastern Africa, where foragers once feasted on twenty species of mammal, sixteen families of bird, and nearly a hundred and fifty kinds of nuts, seeds, fruits, and legumes. He transports us to Çatalhöyük, a bustling Neolithic settlement in Anatolia, where the fare included sheep, goats, wild cattle, wild boars, waterfowl, and an impressive array of plant foods, such as plums, figs, acorns, almonds, hackberries, pistachios, and wild mustard.

It may look as if modern diets are wonderfully varied, both Grescoe and Saladino argue, but by historical standards they’re not. As a species, humans once ate thousands of plant foods, but only a hundred and fifty are cultivated at scale for food today, three of which—rice, wheat, and maize—constitute fifty per cent of all calories. Even within that trio, diversity is crumbling. In the twentieth century, American-grown hybrid corn came to account for fifty per cent of globally traded maize. Thousands of local varieties have been displaced. The result was a boom in calories but also a more fragile food system, as was made clear when a fungal blight ruined a billion bushels of American maize in 1970.

For opponents of meat eating, this loss of diversity is a call to arms. In “No Meat Required: The Cultural History and Culinary Future of Plant-Based Eating,” Alicia Kennedy says that campaigns against ingesting flesh are about “claiming biodiversity and rebuilding the food system in a way that supports culture, tradition, and gastronomy.” Their argument comes down to an ecological observation: it takes about a hundred times more land to produce a calorie of lamb or beef than it does to produce a plant-based alternative. Given that half the world’s ice- and desert-free land is used for agriculture, shifting to a fully plant-based diet would unlock vast resources. By one estimate, agricultural land use around the world would decrease by about three billion hectares—roughly four times the area of the continental United States.

How do members of the carnivore crew respond? Some, like Judy Cho and Paul Saladino, argue that the consensus is wrong and that, as Cho says, “cows may be the way to save the planet.” They blame environmental devastation on such factors as grain monocultures and crop-driven deforestation—never mind that some eighty per cent of farmland is used for livestock feed. Others take up a vaporously ideological form of opposition.

Consider the shtick of Raw Egg Nationalist (X followers: 182.8K), a right-wing conspiracy theorist who dispenses “red-pill fitness” to his fans. “The enemy today is what I like to call ‘soy globalism,’ ” he explained on Tucker Carlson’s 2022 Fox special “The End of Men.” “The globalists want you to be fat, sick, depressed, and isolated—the better to control you and to milk you for as much economic value as they can, before they kill you.” His solution aligned nationalism and masculinity: strong men build strong nations, which defend against soy globalism. “And that’s where raw eggs come in. Eggs are a superfood, packed with protein, fats, vitamins, minerals, anabolic cholesterol—the absolute opposite of the disgusting rubbish the globalists want us to eat.” He didn’t end at eggs. If it has cholesterol, it qualifies: “That means butter, that means red meat, organ meat, eating liver, drinking raw milk, eating raw-milk products.” He warned, “Eating a low-fat vegetarian diet is about the worst thing you can do. It just tanks testosterone.”

On December 1, 2022, after incriminating e-mails were shared online, the Liver King released a video on YouTube titled “Liver King confession . . . I lied.” Bare-chested and seated on what looked like a throne, he told the camera, “Yes, I’ve done steroids. And, yes, I’m on steroids.” He defended himself by returning to the issues that inspired him to preach the ancestral tenets. “Our people are hurting at record rates, with depression, autoimmune, anxiety, infertility, low ambition in life. Our young men are hurting the most, feeling lost, weak, and submissive.”

Pore over materials on carnivory and the overwhelming impression is that men are endangered. They were once strong. They lived with nature and had stone-hard chests. They killed or were killed. But not anymore. Now they are either scrawny or obese. They have plummeting sperm counts and middling testosterone levels. “Alexander the Great conquered the world at age 25,” posted Carnivore Aurelius (IG followers: 717K), an anonymous meme-maker who dances between satire and sincerity. “The average 25 year old today has a panic attack if they leave their vape at home. WTF happened to men?”

Men, we read more and more, are falling behind. Just seventy-four men finish college for every hundred women. The model of a provider who supports a family through mostly physical labor is a diminishing prospect. Because meat is linked to manhood, carnivory promises a way to pump up a shrivelled birthright.

The Liver King understood this from the start. His very first video was ostensibly about a Paleolithic life style, but it looked like an ad for masculinity. It starred a semi-nude Viking hurling a spear, throwing a heavy ball, and benching a barbell with thick chains hanging down. It featured lightning, a bonfire, raw meat sliced with a chef’s knife, and a marinated lamb chop thrown on a grill. There were symbols of status and wealth throughout, from the landscaping to the lavish home gym.

Carnivory conjures up an Edenic past that contrasts with our current discontents: a mythical time when men were manly and bodies were fit and food was real and natural. Cleanse yourself of modern corruption, it urges, and the world and your body will be renewed. You will be strong. Your family will be healthy. The land will recover. In “The Carnivore Code,” Paul Saladino describes the zone you inhabit when consuming a meat-only diet as “Zion,” “Shangri-La,” and “the Promised Land,” a “verdant” coastline where you can hunt “healthy ruminants” drinking from “clean, flowing streams.”

It’s familiar terrain. The most successful diets of the past half century benefitted from similar marketing. Alluring additives are poisoning our bodies, their advocates insisted. Freedom and vigor come from purging them, from reënacting the lifeways of make-believe ancestors. When, in the nineteen-seventies, Nathan Pritikin championed a high-carbohydrate, low-fat regimen, he and his co-authors claimed that it was “an accident of civilization” that Americans had such easy access to fat and cholesterol. “Primitive people” were “more likely to be near-vegetarians,” he asserted. When Robert Atkins promoted the opposite approach—carbohydrate restriction as the key to good health—he stressed that “the food you eat when you do Atkins is surprisingly close to what our primitive ancestors ate.” And in “Diet for a Small Planet” (1971), perhaps the most important tract in favor of meatless eating ever published, Frances Moore Lappé told her readers that she advocated “the return to the traditional diet on which our bodies evolved.”

Fad diets are perfectly manufactured to spread. They appeal to dissatisfaction. They provide crude explanations for why things are going wrong. And they tap into an intuitive logic at the center of spiritual traditions—that the greater the sacrifice, the greater the redemption. Yet fad diets also doom themselves. The same features that fuel their popularity—their quick-fix nature, their severe and often harmful restrictions—are what make them unsustainable for many.

You even see this happening within the culture of carnivory. When the podcaster Joe Rogan went on a carnivore diet, in 2022, he ate fruit with his meat. The Liver King espouses a “nutrient-dense, nose-to-tail diet” while openly consuming potatoes and maple syrup. Yet the most dramatic turnabout occurred with Paul Saladino himself. Since publishing “The Carnivore Code,” he has acknowledged the benefits of carbohydrates. He now incorporates fruit, honey, and kefir into his daily fare, and this spring he changed his social-media handles from versions of ~CarnivoreMD to ~PaulSaladinoMD. In true Paleolithic fashion, even meatfluencers struggle to resist the pull of plants.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/...nature-intended
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2   ^
Old Wed, Sep-27-23, 04:03
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,444
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
Default

Thanks for posting that upcoming article! Very interesting.

This will shake up the Carnivore world. Liver King uses steroids? Paul Saldino is not a Carnivore? What a surprise…not!
Maybe this will help fans view their chosen version of the diet in terms of Nutrients.

Marty Kendall is trying to start the rumor that Nutrition is about getting enough Nutrients. "The more we narrow our food choices, the less nutritionally complementary foods we have to choose from." Higher Protein diets are an effective weight loss tool, but one that works best with high fiber plants, low fat dairy, eggs, fish, beans, etc. High protein diets are not all High Meat diets. Very low carb diets may also be short on nutrients without close watch on the foods and maybe supplements.

Carnivore vs Plant-Based vs Satiety: Which Nutrients are Harder to Get?

https://optimisingnutrition.com/car...nts/#more-41751

Last edited by JEY100 : Wed, Sep-27-23 at 07:03.
Reply With Quote
  #3   ^
Old Tue, Oct-10-23, 13:48
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,044
 
Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

Demi - Thanks for posting the article from The New Yorker. After reading it and becoming appalled at its gross distortions, inaccuracies, misrepresentations, and wrong conclusions, I today read Gary Taubes' article from Substack about the MIND Trial. This was something you posted in another thread. While it refers to a different nutrition topic, the media response is exactly the same. That's really all one needs to read to understand how this BS gets published and is so often incorrectly interpreted, and the author failed to mention that a trial was conducted that reached no positive conclusion on the MIND Diet over the 3-year period. I no longer read nutrition or diet information published by the myriad general media sources, as they really are attempting to push an agenda with which they agree. Facts never matter, it's the spin that counts. If the journalists would carefully read the trial report, they might, just might be capable of an accurate summary, but not always . . .

Here's the Taubes link to the article again in Unsettled Science, as it's well worth the read for one's awareness that you should always be skeptical of what you read:

https://unsettledscience.substack.c...l=true&r=1pfe2v

Last edited by GRB5111 : Tue, Oct-10-23 at 20:15.
Reply With Quote
  #4   ^
Old Tue, Oct-10-23, 19:54
Bob-a-rama's Avatar
Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,961
 
Plan: Keto (Atkins Induction)
Stats: 235/175/185 Male 5' 11"
BF:
Progress: 120%
Location: Florida
Default

I do it the easy way:
  • I have the teeth of an omnivore, some for tearing flesh and others for grinding plant matter.
  • I have digestive enzymes of an omnivore, some for fats, some for carbs, some for oils
  • I have the alimentary canal of an omnivore not too long like horses, not with multiple stomachs to ferment the plant matter, and I don't eat my feces like rabbits and dear to run throgh my system again.
So why would I think I should be a carnivore or a vegan?

Why would I have the digestive tract of an omnivore if I wasn't supposed to eat both?

So I eat a diet that is true to my nature.

All the slanted articles, all the talk from people who call themselves doctors, all the published studies, all the so-called experts won't make me change my mind. I just eat what my body is equipped to digest.

And from experimentation, I find a keto diet keeps my weight from balooning to 300 pounds like everyone else in my family.
Reply With Quote
  #5   ^
Old Thu, Oct-12-23, 11:09
BawdyWench's Avatar
BawdyWench BawdyWench is offline
Posts: 8,793
 
Plan: Carnivore
Stats: 212/179/160 Female 5'6"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Rural Maine
Default

Rob, thanks for posting that. Exactly how I feel: "gross distortions, inaccuracies, misrepresentations, and wrong conclusions."

I eat a virtually all-meat diet because I feel the best on it. When I was low-carb (usually 30g or less), I tended to have flare-ups of diverticulitis from the fiber. The first time it was a 4-day stay in the hospital on IV antibiotics and then 2 more weeks of oral antibiotics. I've had several episodes since then -- thankfully, not as severe as the first -- but NONE since I started eating an all-meat diet in 2021. Also, prior to 2021, my liver enzymes tended to run a bit high. I've cut them in HALF by eating an all-meat diet.

No, it's not for everyone, but it's definitely for some of us.
Reply With Quote
  #6   ^
Old Fri, Oct-13-23, 06:12
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 14,684
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/130/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 129%
Location: USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BawdyWench
No, it's not for everyone, but it's definitely for some of us.


It's an option! And lumping in con artists with dedicated doctors -- who are themselves on carnivore -- is false equivalency. Carnivore is now a known strategy in a few corners of health, like autoimmune and mental health. The amazing effects speak for themselves. If it works, it works. Which is where the con artists come in.

What I'm discovering is people don't necessarily "come out" as carnivore. It would be like declaring oneself on Atkins back at the turn of the century. Oh, the social fabric getting ripped was often what would throw people off the wagon. Many is the conference where I would eat three sandwiches and leave the bread. It freaked people out!

In the winter of 2019 I was dealing with the worst autoimmune flare of my life. The only thing that worked was a three day fast on green tea and coconut oil, and then grass-fed hamburger, salt, and water for three weeks.

The relief from the worst was almost immediate. It rebooted my head about food. My intention was to start a strict elimination diet. But just like I never made it above the fruit & nut rung on the Atkins Carb Ladder, I added dairy and fruit with no problems, and then I kind of stopped. A few things, like romaine lettuce, spices, and milk chocolate can be fitted in, but my now healing body is QUITE clear on this subject.

People have varying levels of handling the anti-nutrients in plants. My body acts like it never got much of those enzymes and strategies. It's happiest when I don't push them past their limits.

It's possible that these fast carnivore responders are telling us what we might have known, and preferred, if we had been free to do so. If there wasn't such an awful state of nutritional knowledge, created on purpose, we could have figured it out and not gotten sick.

In addition, there is no question that animal based foods are an important part of a species-specific diet. I come from cultures who herded animals and drank their milk. In the early thirties, the animal foods-only Masai were studied, alongside the genetically identical population of a nearby tribe I can't spell, but who lived mostly plant-based.

The Masai were five inches taller and all health markers were ahead of the tribe who didn't herd.
Reply With Quote
  #7   ^
Old Mon, Oct-16-23, 09:28
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,044
 
Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

Agreed, these "diet wars" and propaganda are unproductive and become a distraction to the fact that we all respond differently to foods. There is much recent research in the carnivore and keto camps that confirm far-ranging benefits. Keto bounced onto the scene and ultimately caused a knee-jerk reaction from many who feared increased LDL and a very different blood/lipid ratio, but for those who have studied this nutritional approach in detail in labs, in trials, and in clinical practices, we are now finding that it benefits many from children prone to seizures, to all ages prone to anxiety and depression, and to those, like me, who like to train their metabolisms to equally burn fat for energy and find a measured keto approach most healthy. The challenge here is finding what works best for you, and not listening to the many who stand to profit or promote their ethical beliefs by touting a specific "one way of eating" as best for humans.
Reply With Quote
  #8   ^
Old Wed, Oct-18-23, 06:18
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 14,684
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/130/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 129%
Location: USA
Default

One thought I had this morning: Plants are addicting. Animal foods aren't.

We are safe from eating so much yogurt or brisket that we become overweight, metabolically deficient, and then sick. All these "baffling" autoimmune diseases and yet I think (along with Dr. Teresa Wahls) that malnutrition is the cause.

People get stuck thinking malnutrition is a lack, but now food science shows us that fake food might be putting the MALicious in malnutrition. Now we are really confusing our metabolic processes. Our bodies release insulin when it tastes sweet, because what else could it be?

We are really pushing our adaptations when we are essentially eating enough to live, but not well. Solely because most people's food choices are vaguely understood, driven by society and tradition as much as what their body needs. And the public swamp of competing voices doesn't tell anyone anything except encourage them to think "no one knows." Internal and external permission to simply eat what they like, which is currently disastrous.

I also think one of the reasons we don't know is because we are studying people whose metabolisms aren't "normal" because we've all been eating this poisonous, but so convenient, food.

Putting all my recent reading together, I am getting a picture of how Frankenfoods frustrate the body. It meets aspartame with insulin, but then the blood sugar gets too low, until hungry forces them to eat large quantities of fast/snack/wrapper food, most of which has sugar OR starch (almost the same thing when UP level 4) and now they have put their appetite on a bungee cord.

I remember the insanity of the constant screaming hunger that resulted. I think people hit a point with where overeating is the only thing that makes the screaming stop.

Because it's screaming for nourishment, we know it never will.
Reply With Quote
  #9   ^
Old Wed, Oct-18-23, 09:00
Dodger's Avatar
Dodger Dodger is online now
Posts: 8,767
 
Plan: Paleoish/Keto
Stats: 225/167/175 Male 71.5 inches
BF:18%
Progress: 116%
Location: Longmont, Colorado
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
I also think one of the reasons we don't know is because we are studying people whose metabolisms aren't "normal" because we've all been eating this poisonous, but so convenient, food.


There is the same problem with RDAs. They were developed for people who ate lots of carbs (potatoes, noodles, rice, bread) and didn't reflect that most of the requirements measured are to supply needs for carb digesting and use.
Reply With Quote
  #10   ^
Old Wed, Oct-18-23, 19:00
Bob-a-rama's Avatar
Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,961
 
Plan: Keto (Atkins Induction)
Stats: 235/175/185 Male 5' 11"
BF:
Progress: 120%
Location: Florida
Default

Quote:
One thought I had this morning: Plants are addicting. Animal foods aren't.

Bacon is definitely addicting

If one diet worked for everybody, we'd only need one diet book. Experiment, and find what works for you.
Reply With Quote
  #11   ^
Old Thu, Oct-19-23, 04:57
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 14,684
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/130/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 129%
Location: USA
Default

Naw, Bob. Bacon has limits. Sugar don't. As a former BED sufferer, I can say there's only one of these that doesn't have an appetite signal.

It's like the cry of so many confused people: "It's just food! Why is this so complicated?"

Agriculture. That's where we went wrong. Lost an average of 5 inches of height, and chronic diseases started to appear in the skeletons.

That was the basis of Paleo, which continues to appeal to many people. While bacon is processed, it's not deadly processed, IMHO. How can I get excited about nitrites when it's salami and not when it's celery?

Quote:
Plants absorb sodium nitrate from the soil in varying amounts. Vegetables with high levels of sodium nitrate include spinach, radishes, lettuce, celery, carrots, cabbage, and beets. (Healthline)


That's a pretty good lineup of healthy vegetarian foods. Yet no one worries about it. And we are constantly told fermented foods are soooo good for us. But cold cuts are fermented meat. They're not?

I smell a scam.
Reply With Quote
  #12   ^
Old Sat, Oct-21-23, 11:44
Bob-a-rama's Avatar
Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,961
 
Plan: Keto (Atkins Induction)
Stats: 235/175/185 Male 5' 11"
BF:
Progress: 120%
Location: Florida
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
Naw, Bob. Bacon has limits. <...snip...>


Sorry, it was an attempt at humor.

In my post-sugar life, bacon is the food I crave the most, and unfortunately, the high salt content puts weight on me. The non-cured variety just isn't the same. It's just not fair.

Everybody has their issues. Sensible eating for some isn't the same for others. However, I think excessive sugar is definitely bad for everyone (I'm under 20 grams of carbs per day).

I can't eat onions or garlic. I know they are good foods, but I will upchuck them before they hit my stomach. My body knows they will tear me up inside. Cruciferous veggies do the same, but to a lesser extent.

Every article you read about food, it's important to suspect a covert agenda.

The trick is to know what works for you personally, and also what doesn't work.

Bob
Reply With Quote
  #13   ^
Old Sun, Oct-22-23, 03:18
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 14,684
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/130/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 129%
Location: USA
Default

I knew it was humor, I was trying to lob it back.

But I can't eat bacon like I do brisket, for instance.
Reply With Quote
  #14   ^
Old Wed, Oct-25-23, 18:50
Bob-a-rama's Avatar
Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,961
 
Plan: Keto (Atkins Induction)
Stats: 235/175/185 Male 5' 11"
BF:
Progress: 120%
Location: Florida
Default

Sorry, I missed your humor.

Typing without facial expressions does that some times.

I could eat bacon every day, but I don't because it's to processed, puts water weight on me, and I shouldn't eat that much salt.

I eat cheese almost every day, but it doesn't seem to have a negative effect on me. But I don't crave it like I do bacon.

I watch myself, weigh myself everyday, evaluate how I feel, and try to extend the healthy part of my life as long as I possibly can. So far - so good. I rarely even catch a cold.
Reply With Quote
  #15   ^
Old Wed, Oct-25-23, 18:57
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 19,235
 
Plan: atkins, carnivore 2023
Stats: 225/224/163 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 2%
Location: Massachusetts
Default

Bob, have you tried making homemade bacon?? You can control the salt and the brown sugar levels, to your liking.

WB,
""One thought I had this morning: Plants are addicting. Animal foods aren't."

Never thought about it this way. You are RIGHT!!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:49.


Copyright © 2000-2024 Active Low-Carber Forums @ forum.lowcarber.org
Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.