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  #16   ^
Old Tue, Feb-26-13, 14:39
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
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Plan: P:E/DDF
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Good analysis of this study and review of the Lyon heart study by Larry at AWLR:http://www.awlr.org/1/post/2013/02/...-fat-again.html
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  #17   ^
Old Tue, Feb-26-13, 15:03
HappyLC HappyLC is offline
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Plan: Generic low carb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liz53
Yeah, because the LF arm of the study had so much trouble with compliance, just like with the Nurses Study. Maybe we're not meant to eat low fat?


That may be, but it still doesn't make this an indictment of lowfat. And saying so, as Dr. Eenfeldt did, is just wrong.
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  #18   ^
Old Tue, Feb-26-13, 15:29
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Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
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Location: Washington state
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyLC
That may be, but it still doesn't make this an indictment of lowfat. And saying so, as Dr. Eenfeldt did, is just wrong.


What I hear you saying is that the low fat arm would have been more successful...that is, if they'd been able to stick to it. I just can't see it as a practical therapy for overweight if the subjects of the study are unable to comply. How do you define low fat?
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  #19   ^
Old Wed, Feb-27-13, 05:50
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
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Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
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Dr. Peter Attia's analysis of the study, as usual, too long to copy in full here.
http://eatingacademy.com/books-and-...g-heart-disease

Read the analysis through the link, but his conclusion was:

Quote:
My conclusions Overall, I think this is a good study, and a better study than the study prompting it, the famous Lyon Heart Study. That said, I would have much preferred to see only one Mediterranean arm (in retrospect this is obvious, of course, given the lack of difference between them), in favor of a true control or another arm such as Very Low Carb. It’s impossible to guess what the ARR would have been for the Med Diet if the control was a standard fare diet (complete with 138 gm per day of sugar!), rather than a much improved low fat diet. If I had to guess, I’d ballpark the ARR at 1-5%, for a NNT of 20 to 100 people, but this is nothing more than speculation. Remember, I think the Low Fat arm in this study experienced an enormous benefit over their baseline. In the coming months and years, as NuSI begins funding remarkable clinical trials, we’ll have plenty more to discuss…
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  #20   ^
Old Wed, Feb-27-13, 07:45
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Daryl Daryl is offline
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I look forward to their studies!
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  #21   ^
Old Wed, Feb-27-13, 14:12
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mike_d mike_d is offline
Grease is the word!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squarecube
They also limited cookies, or white bread, and other refined grains to three per week.
That's the same advice many 'diet experts' are still giving for eggs!
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  #22   ^
Old Wed, Feb-27-13, 22:31
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aj_cohn aj_cohn is offline
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Plan: Protein Power
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The number that stuck with me from Attia's analysis was the NNT (Number Needed to Treat): 326. 326 people would have to follow this diet for 4–5 years in order for one of them to get the 5% benefit of the higher-fat diet. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of the study diet.

The other comment that stuck with me was this:
Quote:
So, we don’t actually know which of the following statements is correct:
  • This dietary intervention does not result in a difference in MI or death;
  • It does, but this study was not large or long enough to detect it.
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  #23   ^
Old Thu, Feb-28-13, 10:34
HappyLC HappyLC is offline
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Plan: Generic low carb
Stats: 212/167/135 Female 66.75
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Progress: 58%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liz53
What I hear you saying is that the low fat arm would have been more successful...that is, if they'd been able to stick to it. I just can't see it as a practical therapy for overweight if the subjects of the study are unable to comply. How do you define low fat?


You're right - I was in a grumpy mood when I posted that. Compliance really is key, and it's much easier to follow a high fat, low carbohydrate diet than the opposite. I've tried McDougall-type diets (which is what I was thinking of...fat around 10% - 15%) and didn't last long.

(LOL, never post when angry. )

Last edited by HappyLC : Thu, Feb-28-13 at 10:49.
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  #24   ^
Old Thu, Feb-28-13, 11:05
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Posts: 6,140
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyLC
You're right - I was in a grumpy mood when I posted that. Compliance really is key, and it's much easier to follow a high fat, low carbohydrate diet than the opposite. I've tried McDougall-type diets (which is what I was thinking of...fat around 10% - 15%) and didn't last long.

(LOL, never post when angry. )


Yeah, I did Pritikin way back when, but actually a kind of low carb Pritikin. It was low fat AND low carb. In retrospect, I was starving myself. I lost brilliantly for 6-8 weeks, got to my lowest weight ever (to the point that I stopped menstruating, how's that for healthy?). I regained most the weight lost (17 lbs) during a 2 week vacation where I had less control over my food intake. I think it ruined my metabolism and increased my body's desire to store fat forever. If I could only get down to my then starting weight now.
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  #25   ^
Old Sat, Mar-02-13, 12:02
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
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Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
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Experts Want More Studies of Diet’s Role for the Heart
Experts now want studies? After 50 years of untested advice?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/h...-the-heart.html

Quote:
Experts Want More Studies of Diet’s Role for the Heart
By GINA KOLATA
This is a watershed moment in the field of nutrition, medical experts say. For the first time, researchers have shown that a diet can have an effect as powerful as drugs in preventing what really matters to patients — heart attacks, and strokes and deaths from cardiovascular disease.

The subjects were people at high risk of heart disease, and the diet was a Mediterranean one, high in olive oil or nuts.

The study, published last week in The New England Journal of Medicine, is now shaking up the field of cardiovascular medicine, infusing it with optimism. Scientists are calling for similarly rigorous studies of other popular diets that are routinely recommended by cardiologists even though there is little solid evidence that they work.

“We don’t know what the best diet is,” said Dr. Michael Lauer, the director of the division of cardiovascular sciences at the National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute. “This is a great opportunity to come together and use power of the scientific method to get closer to the right answer.”

Other leading experts agreed.

“This is the start of where we need to go with nutritional clinical trials,” said Dr. Neil J. Stone, a professor of preventive cardiology at Northwestern University’s Feinberg School of Medicine and a former chairman of the American Heart Association’s nutrition committee.

The National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute is supporting a large clinical trial to see if fish oil and vitamin D can prevent heart attacks and cardiovascular deaths. But while that is important, heart experts say it is time to also look at diets as a whole.

“We definitively need to test plausible diets, within the context of what is available and consumed in the U.S., that could lower the risk of heart disease,” said Alice H. Lichtenstein, a professor of nutrition science and policy at Tufts University and the lead author of the American Heart Association’s dietary guidelines.

Dr. Lawrence Appel, a professor of medicine at Johns Hopkins who was a member of the 2005 and 2010 United States dietary guidelines committees, said he was inspired by the Mediterranean diet study.

“Can we do a trial of fruits and vegetables?” he asked. “I think we can.”

The situation in nutrition today reminds Dr. Lauer of a previous era in the 1950s when doctors were struggling to figure out how best to treat heart attack patients.

“Nutrition research is where heart attack research was,” Dr. Lauer said. Patients in those days were advised to stay in bed for four to five weeks and take lidocaine to normalize their hearts’ rhythms and nitroglycerin to open blood vessels.

But it turned out that treatment actually hastened death. It took years to find the answers, but eventually, Dr. Lauer said, dozens if not hundreds of large clinical trials radically transformed heart attack treatment.

But when it comes to diet and heart disease, doctors — and patients — have been going on hunches.

The new study could be a start in changing all that, heart researchers said.

It involved 7,447 people in Spain, half of whom were randomly assigned to follow a Mediterranean diet and the rest to follow the sort of standard low-fat diet that cardiologists often prescribe. It was ended early after less than five years because those on the Mediterranean diet had 30 percent fewer heart attacks, strokes and deaths from heart disease compared with people in the control group, who ate more or less the same way that they always had. They had been instructed to follow a low-fat diet but had not been able to comply.

Dr. Ramón Estruch of the University of Barcelona, the lead author of the study, said that although some had thought people would never allow their diets to be decided by a figurative toss of a coin, it was not hard to get people to switch to a Mediterranean diet.

“They wanted to eat the way their grandfathers ate,” he said. Most study participants actually thought they were already eating that way. They learned they were not after answering questions about, for example, how often they ate red meat versus fish.

Dr. Estruch said he and his colleagues were so buoyed by the success of their study that they were planning another one. They intend to randomly assign people to consume the Mediterranean diet or to exercise while following a similar diet that is lower in calories. The hope is that adding weight loss and exercise will prevent even more heart disease.

But for now, chaos reigns. The public is bombarded with diet advice, often contradictory and often lacking a rigorous scientific grounding, medical experts said.

“Diets are an extreme case of accepting evidence we want to believe,” said Dr. J. Sanford Schwartz, a professor of medicine at the University of Pennsylvania.

That includes doctors, he added, who overlook that the evidence for the low-fat diets they often recommend is the sort “we would never accept in the practice of medicine.”

Those low-fat diets sound sensible — eat fruits and vegetables, fish and lean meats. Cut back on salt- and sugar-laden sodas and potato chips. Cut or sharply limit most fats, including olive oil and nuts. But such diets have not been tested in the way the Mediterranean diet was tested.

Doctors are in a bind, said Dr. Daniel J. Rader, a heart disease specialist at the University of Pennsylvania. When patients ask what to eat, he said, “you have to give them something.”

“Given the importance of diets and given the decades of dietary recommendations we have given to people, you would think we would have had more dietary studies with hard endpoints to get at these questions,” Dr. Rader said. But the best they have are studies that look at intermediate markers of risk, like cholesterol levels. In the end, he said, “most doctors just give dietary platitudes.”

Kevin McNamara, 44, faced a decision about diet after he went into cardiac arrest in June while jogging along the Jersey Shore. Mr. McNamara, an investment manager, had no idea he had heart disease. He ended up in the nearest hospital and had bypass surgery to open two blocked arteries. When he returned to his home near Valley Forge, Pa., he sought advice on what to eat and was persuaded by a book that said a vegan diet would prevent and even reverse heart disease.

“I talked to some of my doctors, and they said it wouldn’t hurt if I went on a vegan diet,” Mr. McNamara said.

Now he wants to discuss the Mediterranean diet with his doctors. He worries because he wants to keep his cholesterol levels very low. “I am paranoid that any sort of fat will build up in my coronary arteries,” Mr. McNamara said. But he added, “I am not sure if I want to do a vegan diet for the next 30 or 40 years of my life.”

Vegan diets have never been rigorously tested, and probably never will be, Dr. Lichtenstein said. “Given the high cost of conducting a long-term diet study we have to think about what is feasible for the majority of the U.S. population,” she said. “From past experience, we know it is highly unlikely people are going to make radical changes in their diet and stick with those changes long term.”

But other diet studies are definitely in the offing, researchers said.

“As we go on, we realize we know less and less,” Dr. Lauer said. “We can despair and just make things up, or we can celebrate and say we have a real opportunity to grow here.”

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  #26   ^
Old Sat, Mar-02-13, 12:52
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Experts Want More Studies of Diet’s Role for the Heart
Experts now want studies? After 50 years of untested advice?

But when it comes to diet and heart disease, doctors — and patients — have been going on hunches.


They have? Is that going to be their story?
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  #27   ^
Old Mon, Apr-08-13, 16:17
jsimon76 jsimon76 is offline
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Default Mediterranean Diet?

I'm not from Greece but I do like my meats lean.

Apparently there is a connection between carbs and cardiovascular complications like myocardial infarction(heart attack) and stroke.

http://www.mydocpage.com/scientific...ack-and-stroke/
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  #28   ^
Old Mon, Apr-08-13, 16:25
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RawNut RawNut is offline
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Plan: Very Low Carb Paleo
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Thanks. It's about the study discussed here:
http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=450722
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