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  #1   ^
Old Thu, Aug-21-08, 12:08
chandbaby1's Avatar
chandbaby1 chandbaby1 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 750
 
Plan: PPLPish<30ecc.
Stats: 180/165/150 Female 5 foot 5 inches
BF:
Progress: 50%
Location: Boston
Default Does dawn phenomenon happen in normal people?

By that i mean can a normal persons FBG be higher than the BG for the rest of the day?
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  #2   ^
Old Thu, Aug-21-08, 12:18
johndeb420's Avatar
johndeb420 johndeb420 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 149
 
Plan: adkins
Stats: 217/148/160 Male 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 121%
Location: northeast kentucky
Default

i hate to sound dumb but what is FBG and BG?????
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  #3   ^
Old Thu, Aug-21-08, 12:23
chandbaby1's Avatar
chandbaby1 chandbaby1 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 750
 
Plan: PPLPish<30ecc.
Stats: 180/165/150 Female 5 foot 5 inches
BF:
Progress: 50%
Location: Boston
Default

fast blood glucose and blood glucose
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  #4   ^
Old Thu, Aug-21-08, 12:58
lowcarbUgh's Avatar
lowcarbUgh lowcarbUgh is offline
Dazed and Confused
Posts: 2,927
 
Plan: South Beach
Stats: 170/132/135 Female 5'10
BF:
Progress: 109%
Location: Flip-flop, FL
Default

DP is simply a release of "wake up" hormones. No one notices the effects of them except pre-diabetics and diabetics. If your FBG is elevated, your probably have IR/pre-diabetes/metabolic syndrome.
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  #5   ^
Old Fri, Aug-22-08, 07:50
dancinbr's Avatar
dancinbr dancinbr is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 811
 
Plan: Dr. Bernstein (modified )
Stats: 298/205/199 Male 5 foot 11 inches
BF:
Progress: 94%
Location: Smithtown, NY
Default

NO.

A non-diabetic does not have the dawn phenomenon.

The reason is as follows:

Yes the liver releases its early dose of morning glucose.

However, a non-diabetic with a fully functioning pancreas immediately compensates with an appropriate amount of fast acting insulin.

This keeps their FBG down around 85 or so. It varies by individual. For non-diabetics the range is 70-85 from what I have read.

In a pre-diabetic and/or T2 diabetic and very definitely a T1 diabetic your pancreas cannot compensate any longer since you have lost the Phase I function, which is that quick release of insulin. So your FBG creeps up and up.

For a pre-diabetic the number starts to approach 100 or a bit over. For a diabetic the number is over 100 heading for 130-140 and for some folks even higher.

Now, I am not being precise here, but you can read more about this in greater detail in Jenny's website.

Here is one interesting page on her website.

http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/14046889.php

But, do yourself a favor and explore her website thoroughly.

Also, consider buying Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution

http://www.diabetes-book.com/

Many of us live this lifestyle exactly. Many of us use this as the guide.

But there are other good books as well. I am very comfortable with this book.

It has helped me control my T2 diabetes. It took my doctor over a year, in fact I switched doctors before I was told I had T2. I was probably running FBG over 130 all the way and shooting up to 300 or higher after a meal.

Best wishes,

Ralph
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  #6   ^
Old Tue, Oct-21-08, 14:16
preck1378's Avatar
preck1378 preck1378 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 124
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 170/157/130 Female 5' 4"
BF:?/24.7%/22%
Progress: 33%
Location: Idaho, USA
Default

Just wanted to subscribe, thinking I'm pre-diabetic.
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  #7   ^
Old Fri, Oct-24-08, 09:57
Lessara's Avatar
Lessara Lessara is offline
Everyday Sane Psycho
Posts: 7,075
 
Plan: Bernstein, Keto IFast
Stats: 385/253/160 Female 67.5
BF:14d bsl 400/122/83
Progress: 59%
Location: Durham, NH
Default

I think the real answer is this if you are insilin resistant you will have a much bigger and more noticable (blood test wise) number
I was told everyone has their body raise their blood sugar around 3am. In insilin resistant, for many of us, this process is distorted and we might raise our blood sugar 3-4 times higher.
when cells resist insilin they make the insilin so high in our bodies that our bodies have to make sugar. For many of us don't eat at 3am in the morning.
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  #8   ^
Old Mon, Mar-21-11, 20:08
Requin Requin is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 521
 
Plan: My own.
Stats: 206/194.4/155 Female 5'6"
BF:27.17%
Progress: 23%
Location: Thompson, Manitoba
Default

Well, my fasting glucose would be the only thing possibly suggesting I'm pre-diabetic. My post prandial readings are always in the normal range, my bs between meals is perfectly normal, but they're higher than normal in the morning. I go to bed with a reading of 5.2, having not eaten for 2 hours, and wake up with a bs of 6.4.

So I can't then help but wonder- why does my insulin not work while I sleep? Why would I only be insulin resistant during the night? Personally, I think my stress level is through the roof, and cortisol is screwing up the whole system. However, my mother has the same problem, and she is diabetic.
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  #9   ^
Old Mon, Mar-28-11, 10:39
Java Finch's Avatar
Java Finch Java Finch is offline
New Member
Posts: 18
 
Plan: 8hr window "IF"
Stats: 155/128/125 Female 68.5
BF:
Progress: 90%
Location: North Central US
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Requin
Well, my fasting glucose would be the only thing possibly suggesting I'm pre-diabetic. My post prandial readings are always in the normal range, my bs between meals is perfectly normal, but they're higher than normal in the morning. I go to bed with a reading of 5.2, having not eaten for 2 hours, and wake up with a bs of 6.4.

So I can't then help but wonder- why does my insulin not work while I sleep? Why would I only be insulin resistant during the night? Personally, I think my stress level is through the roof, and cortisol is screwing up the whole system. However, my mother has the same problem, and she is diabetic.


This sounds like me. I think for several years now when I've tested in the morning I've been just over 100. Thing is, about 4 years ago I had A1C done because I wondered if I was insulin resistant and I had been trying to get pregnant for almost 6 years, and it came back at 4. Shortly after that I finally got pregnant, and I passed my GTT even while being 35 with diabetes in my family. I thought that was a 'good sign' that maybe I'm getting my 'metabolic genetics' from my dad's side more than my mom, where all the diabetes is.

I worked out a solid hour every day for years before those levels above, and JUST started taking better care of myself a couple months ago, so I fear maybe I damaged myself, because I started taking FBG tests in the am and they are just over 100 - I *think* they were back when the above tests were done, but maybe I'm wrong.

Even at my high weight (I am down 20 pounds now) I was still (by a hair) in the 'normal' range for weight. Now I'm down to a BMI of less than 20.something. I am exercising a lot. I quit my Coke habit (was drinking an average of 1-2 cans per day) 2 months ago. I wonder if the fact that I'm still having these higher morning blood sugars means I'm already damaged or will it just take time for my body to get more insulin sensitive, or does that happen pretty quickly?

I've been doing reduced carb, exercise, and trying to cut out sugar totally (no juice or sugary drinks anymore!) but I'm not 'low carb' per se as of yet, but I'd never eat a pancake, muffin, bowl of oatmeal or anything like that.

I guess an A1C is what I should have done to answer these questions? Hypothetically, if my A1C was still 4 but my morning sugars were over 100, should I just not worry? I really would love to see numbers in the 80's on that meter!!! Sorry this is so rambly!
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  #10   ^
Old Mon, Mar-28-11, 12:10
Hutchinson's Avatar
Hutchinson Hutchinson is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 2,886
 
Plan: Dr Dahlqvist's
Stats: 205/152/160 Male 69
BF:
Progress: 118%
Default

We also have to remember that MOST PEOPLE do not get sufficient sleep.
They use too much bright light after dusk.
They go to bed too late, often after 10pm.
They use their bright PC monitors and don't bother to install F Lux to automatically lower the light output after dusk
They have TV's, PC's, gaming devices, radio's clocks digital displays in their bedrooms that emit light during the night.
So instead of the pitch black dark of night that should be contrasted with the BRIGHT LIGHT of day we have people secreting insufficient melatonin during the night and too much melatonin in the morning.
We do not generally have sufficient contrast between BLACK NIGHT and BRIGHT DAYLIGHT.

GET OUTSIDE INTO BRIGHT LIGHT before you have your breakfast. Switch off the melatonin secretion before you eat your breakfast.

effect of phototherapy in insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus

And install FLUX turn down the room lights and darken your bedroom to pitch black at night to enhance melatonin secretion BEFORE you go to sleep and during your sleep.
If you need to pee in the night then DON'T TURN ON THE LIGHT.
If you are afraid of falling from bed to loo then install some motion sensor stick on battery LED lights low level to light the way to prevent accidents but not to high to disrupt your melatonin secretion.

BAN NIGHT LIGHTS.

You need melatonin at night as much as you need vitamin d during the day. They are equally important.
Mess up either or both and you're on the way to metabolic syndrome not enough anti inflammatory and insufficient anti oxidant.

Last edited by Hutchinson : Tue, Mar-29-11 at 02:46.
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  #11   ^
Old Mon, Mar-28-11, 16:35
Cajunboy47 Cajunboy47 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,900
 
Plan: Eat Fat, Get Thin
Stats: 212/162/155 Male 68 "
BF:32/23.5/23.5
Progress: 88%
Location: Breaux Bridge, La
Default

Hutch!

If there was a "LIKE" button for your post, I'd press it 3 or 4 times.....

I knew the things you mentioned, but never saw it in that perspective, as each (melatonin & D) going hand in hand.

Very good way of putting it in a common sense method of understanding... thanks....!
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  #12   ^
Old Mon, Mar-28-11, 17:54
Seejay's Avatar
Seejay Seejay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,025
 
Plan: Optimal Diet
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 62 inches
BF:
Progress: 8%
Default

The morning FBS can be higher for people eating a normal high fat, low carb diet.

So no, I would not worry at all if my A1C was 4 and morning sugars over 100!! normal for a long term low carber.

Peter at Hyperlipid talks about this in his article

Physiological Insulin Resistance (3): Clarification of FBG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
A high carb eater with FBG of 5.5mmol/l implies chronic hyperinsulinaemia, 24/7 and is looking for something to die from.

A LC, very high fat eater with a FBG of 5.5mmol/l implies they haven't had breakfast yet. They are not going to be hyperinsulinaemic at any stage. Unless they eat a bagel instead of their normal bacon and eggs that is. If they do this their blood glucose will hit 10mmol/l before insulin can shut down lipolysis and get the muscle accepting glucose.

It's NOT the FBG of 5.5mmol/l that matters. It's what that means about insulinaemia if you are eating a rice based diet. It's bad. The Kitavans eat a sweet potato based diet, are not insulin resistant and have FBG of 3 point something.
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