I have been doing extensive research on LC dieting and LC lifestyle, and have read all of the Atkins books. I am on the Atkins plan right now (still in induction) and I really, truly believe Atkins is right on target with the theory of the role insulin plays in weight loss and fat storage, and in controlling insulin levels to lose and maintain weight. However, I believe the Atkins plan is flawed. I believe that the Glycemic Index/Glycemic Load (GI/GL) research that is going on is of FAR more use to LC'ers than just counting carbs. these are my reasons:

1) carb counts are arrived at "by difference", meaning after fat, protien and ash are figured for a given food, the rest is assigned as carbs.

2) going by carb counts alone don't always give accurate views of insulin response. if you look at the gi/gl of certain foods, some foods high in carbs (like Old Fashioned cooked oatmeal, whole grain breads and milk) have little insulin response and CAN be included in a "low carb' diet, yet someone on the Atkins plan having to stay under a certain carb count might never include these healthful foods in their diet because they contain too many carbs per serving.

so my belief is that we indeed need to control insulin response and avoid high blood sugar, but prudent eating of healthful foods with a low glycemic response makes more sense than just counting carb grams alone and trying to stay under some magic number. I would appreciate comments on this, as it's just a theory and I am just searching for the truth like everyone else!!!

I'm not sure where you're picking up this 'flaw'. On Atkins, you count 'net' carbs, not the whole carbs. The Net Carb amount is arrived at by subtracting the amount of fiber within the food from its entire carb count. So for example, a 1/4 cup of raspberries, which has 7 carbs only ends up with 3 net carbs because of the 4 grams of fiber. And the 4 grams is what's counted into the daily total.

BTW, greetings to a fellow Idahoan!!

Actually...if you read Dr. Atkins' newest book, Atkins For Life, he goes into quite a bit of detail about the glycemic index and glycemic load.

I eat fairly high carbs per day for Atkins OWL (about 100g), but if I eat more than 5 grams (cuppa tea with sugar), it is in a major meal with protein and fat included. Also I choose low GI foods, like low starch veggies, barley, seeds and berries. For all that, I am able to maintain ketosis. Basically I am eating as much carb as possible while maintaining ketosis and weight loss. I think the balanced meals and low GI are a big help.

I still count carbs by the gram though. Often at 130 grams of carbs I gain weight. Most likely it is simply glycogen plus water but it is disconcerting.

I think we lose weight on Atkins diet for two reasons:

(1) When we are in the ketosis state we use ketones for fuel, we waste some of them and we cannot make new body fat.

(2) We eat very small amount of carbohydrates so the the insulin overshooting effect which causes craving is not likely to happen. So we have better control over our appetite.

Low GI food can help with item (2) only. For item (1), if we get enough glucose to use as a fuel regardless of how fast or slow it comes, we will not need to produce ketones and will burn fat the old way which has caused us to be overweight.

thanks for the responses....I totally agree with ketosis being a necessity to burn stored fat, but what about maintenance? once the weight is lost, if the ultimate goal is to control insulin response, couldn't a less strict diet of low gi foods have the same ultimate effect as counting carbs and trying to stay under some magic #? I just don't want to have to count carb grams forever, as long as I am aware of how certain foods effect my body and am able to keep insulin responses low. maybe I just have to see what works for me.....

Mac1,
I think you are correct in needing to learn what works for you. I check both carb count and glycemic index but I do think it is important to count carbs. You said you don't want to count carbs the rest of your life??? Why not? I consider Atkins (general low carb eating) to now be a way of life. For years I looked for the easy way to lose weight and have always gained it back because I stopped following the plan. I have now been on Atkins for 1 year and I plan (and hope) I will continue to eat this way for the rest of my life. I will say...that the longer I am on it the easier it is to stick with and enjoy the challenge of trying and creating new low carbs meals.
Congrats on your early weight loss and your desire to get all the facts. Good luck.

Mac1, you described LC Maintenance with:

Quote:

so my belief is that we indeed need to control insulin response and avoid high blood sugar ... prudent eating of healthful foods with a low glycemic response

Remember, there are many LC plans available to you to choose from; some do not even require you to be in ketosis (and fat burning happens just fine )

You hit the nail squarely on the head here. LC is a life long learning curve, IMHO. It accomplishes the same goal for most of us - a return to health, a repaired insulin sensitivity and a functioning metabolism - but it doesn't necessarily do so following the same methods for all of us.

There are those of us who are more sensitive to carbs and will always have to keep the number lower. There are those of us who are sensitive to only specific types of carbs and can eat more in general if we avoid the ones that cause us troubles. There are those of us who are very active and can therefore handle a higher amount daily. As you stated - it's about figureing out what works best for you. It's also about learning what works best for you over the course of time - as you repair your insulin sensitivity chances are you'll be able to handle more carbs, especially the low G.I. / G.L. ones - I know I have found this to be true.

After two years I know the carb counts on just about everything I eat on a daily basis. Having just gone through a very hectic life change (i.e. moving into a new house and selling the old one) I have not had the use of fitday, my food scale or my scales for 3 or 4 weeks - eating was instictive; sticking to whole foods, unprocessed foods and drinking loads of water. I have no clue if my weight moved any, but I do know it was a very liberating experience, and that all my clothing fits better than it did back in September. Now 18 months ago, there is no way I would have done this. The comfort level comes with time and understanding of how this WOL effects your body.

Cheers,
Nat

I agree that the Glycemic Index and Glycemic Load are very important. You could eat the same amount of carbs using high GI and GL foods and get an up in blood sugar, or eat low ones and be fine.

I may not be able to tolerate things like Barely or whole grains ever, as I'm type 11 Diabetic, but some people may do just fine.

I think everyone has to find what works for them. Oh, and I too have found that it's not just WHAT I eat, it's also what I eat WITH it.

And the time of day makes a difference too.

Very interesting to look at the GI and GL-explains why a few berries are okay, while the equal amount of carbs in, say, a banana wouldn't work.

And if your system hasn't been messed up by yo yo dieting, or being addicted to the carbs in a way that has damaged your metabolism, it does make a difference. To each their own

I am crossing my fingers that you're right about the glycemic index and being able to eat foods lower on the scale. I miss my oatmeal alot. It was something I could always eat, even with the sin of a small amount of added sugar and milk when I was on a restricted carb diet for my gestational diabetes. Even though my total carb count for the meal was higher than it was supposed to be (by about 7 grams) it never effected my bloodsugars. Infact they were usually on the lower end of my normal range. It also seemed to help even out my bloodsugars for at least part of the rest of the day. (I even lost weight consistantly: 2lbs a week)

Oats have been getting lots of good press for helping people lower their cholesterol. Now I begin to wonder if that has more to do with helping people even out their insulin levels for the day, than just the reported absorbtion of fats from the bloodstream. Especially since it's been proven (or at least to my statisfaction) that higher insulin levels contribute to high cholestoral levels. I wonder what a study would show of people with high cholestoral being placed on a diet of foods low on the glycemic index, not just oats, but many of the other foods that help even out bloodsugars and insulin levels over the day.

I personally am hoping that once I reach my goal weight I'll be able to manage my diet less from counting carbs than from managing my bloodsugars and understanding how different foods effect me. This could be wishful thinking on my part I know. But I agree that missing out on things like oatmeal and a few other 'high carb' foods might not be in my best interests. Then again, I know that being over a hundred pounds overweight is even less so. Maybe though, there's a balance... and it wont have to be a choice of one or the other.

keeping my fingers crossed....

lorelei

I don't think you're just having a case of wishful thinking--I think one day this will pretty much happen for you. Sure, you'll still want to have a good grasp on your carb intake, but like Nat said, eventually this will most likely become second nature. We are such creatures of habit. If we learn from this WOE, we will also create totally new eating habits. In just 2.5 short weeks a lot of my old habits are pretty much gone. Oh, sure, they could re-surface if I let them, but I really don't want to do that.

BTW, old-fashioned oatmeal is recommended as probably the best cooked cereal on the market because it has a pretty high fiber content. Now, I just wish I liked it!

I would never want to go back to the way I ate before....or even think about going back.. We have to think of ourselves as like someone who's either quit smoking or drinking.. I hated the way I felt before but love the way I feel now...Don't think of it as a diet but as a way of living instead...

Whenever I got tired of counting carbs and staying under 30 grams I'd shift for a while to Sugar Busters or modified Somersizing (both are based on the low GI thing)..but I always wonder if people who switch really lose as much weight on those plans as lower carb programs (I don't seem to). Has anyone here tried both methods?

On carb counting vs. glycemic index... one is a heck of a lot simpler than the other. Someone starting out on Atkins or a similar plan is probably already overwhelmed with all of the information, and will probably have a much easier time simply counting carbs. Glycemic index and load, though, are more complex. They involve food combining, cooked vs. raw, etc. That's probably why it isn't discussed in DANDR but is in Atkins for Life.

By the time you don't need to count carbs anymore, you probably don't need glycemic load, either. You know by how you feel whether or not a certain food is going to cause you problems.

MHO.

I you read through the entire New DIet revolution, he does talk about the Index. That is why it is suggested to add in berries as your first fruit.

On the web site and in Atkins for life, he talks about it even more. Part of the problem is many never read beyond the induction chapter, and when they add back in carbs, it's SF candies and other junk foods, or just whole grains.