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  #1   ^
Old Tue, Nov-20-18, 03:19
Demi's Avatar
Demi Demi is offline
Posts: 26,727
 
Plan: Muscle Centric
Stats: 238/153/160 Female 5'10"
BF:
Progress: 109%
Location: UK
Default Why Are We Still So Fat?

Oh dear


Quote:
From The New York Times
November 19, 2018

Why Are We Still So Fat?

Only bariatric surgery reliably leads to long-term weight loss. Now scientists hope to duplicate the effects with a pill.


Whenever I see a photo from the 1960s or 1970s, I am startled.

It’s not the clothes. It’s not the hair. It’s the bodies. So many people were skinny.

In 1976, 15 percent of American adults were obese. Now the it’s nearly 40 percent. No one really knows why bodies have changed so much.
Scientists do a lot of hand-waving about our “obesogenic environment” and point to favorite culprits: the abundance of cheap fast foods and snacks; food companies making products so tasty they are addictive; larger serving sizes; the tendency to graze all day.

Whatever the combination of factors at work, something about the environment is making many people as fat as their genetic makeup permits. Obesity has always been with us, but never has it been so common.

Everyone — from doctors to drug companies, from public health officials to overweight people themselves — would love to see a cure, a treatment that brings weight to normal and keeps it there. Why hasn’t anyone discovered one?



Read the full article here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/19/...rgery-diet.html
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  #2   ^
Old Tue, Nov-20-18, 05:45
s93uv3h's Avatar
s93uv3h s93uv3h is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,662
 
Plan: Atkins & IF / TRE
Stats: 000/000/000 Male 5' 10"
BF:
Progress: 97%
Default

take a pill. no thanks.

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  #3   ^
Old Tue, Nov-20-18, 07:47
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 19,214
 
Plan: atkins, carnivore 2023
Stats: 200/211/163 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: -30%
Location: Massachusetts
Default

My furst impression is that the new york times is BEHIND the times. Dropping weight isnt the only goal, overall health benefits from changing the foods we eat. And bariatric surgery rarely works and has a high death rate.....
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  #4   ^
Old Tue, Nov-20-18, 08:41
s93uv3h's Avatar
s93uv3h s93uv3h is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,662
 
Plan: Atkins & IF / TRE
Stats: 000/000/000 Male 5' 10"
BF:
Progress: 97%
Default

yup - they're behind the times. cutting carbs leads to choosing your fat, which leads to lowering your omega 6, which leads to taking care of and feeding your gut microbiome, and eliminating statins, and a plethora of other lifestyle changes.

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  #5   ^
Old Tue, Nov-20-18, 09:00
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

Quote:
Scientists got an unsparing look at what they were up against 50 years ago, when a clinical researcher at Rockefeller University, Dr. Jules Hirsch, did some old-fashioned experiments. He recruited obese people to stay at the hospital and subsist on a 600-calorie a day liquid diet until they reached a normal weight.

The subjects lost 100 pounds on average, and they were thrilled. But as soon as they left the hospital, the pounds piled back on.

Dr. Hirsch and Dr. Rudy Leibel, now at Columbia University, repeated the study again and again, with the same result. Eventually, they found that when a very fat person diets down to a normal weight, he or she physiologically comes to resemble a starving person, craving food with an avidity that is hard to imagine.


There is a difference here. Often on a very low calorie diet, after a few days, obese people will report back that they don't experience much in the way of discomfort--in fact they might be less hungry than if they were on a more moderate calorie-restricted plan. Maybe because of the reduction in insulin, fasted and postprandial? Leptin was mentioned--in a weight reduced person, leptin can be much lower. A skinny person inappropriately put on that 600 calorie a day plan will wind up with much lower leptin levels. But look at studies with obese subjects--it goes down much less. This is because leptin is not just about fed status, it's also about body fat status.

Okay, so that's active weight loss, during which calories are very low. Key here I think is that thing where appetite reduces during fasting or the very low calories. Just eating a little bit less than usual would also decrease insulin--but not by as much. There is also data showing that these approaches sort of change the activity of ghrelin and its effect on hunger. Ghrelin has a role in the regulation of glucose, animals on high carb diets suffer reactive hyperglycemia if ghrelin isn't there to stimulate postdigestive secretion of growth hormone, glucagon etc. It also has some more direct roles to play, stimulating hunger in that same part of the brain vaguely alluded to in Gina Kolata's article. Since fasting, very low calorie diets, and ketogenic diets decrease the role of glucose in the metabolism generally, and take people off that glucose roller coaster, there's less of a role for a counterregulatory hormone like ghrelin to prevent the hypoglycemic dips.

Body acting like a starving person's--okay, I get that to some degree. If I eat a diet of pizza and ice cream at my current weight, I'll be hungrier then I was when I ate that way at my top weight, tend to binge more than I did when I was at my fattest. Or make that a wholesome diet of lowish fat banana bread, oat meal and skim milk. Even just eating a more hedonic, typical Atkins diet but with more cheese and nuts, I'll experience this, although years of doing this tells me I won't get as fat as if I'm eating those carbohydrates.

Even on the calorie restricted low fat diet, and my Dad's experience matches for this--I would be hungrier for a few days, but then my appetite would decrease. I think this still fits into the insulin hypothesis. Taubes has suggested in the past that calorie restriction generally means some carb restriction, because that's largely what people eat these days. Well, okay, but with fat intake around 35 percent, there's still room for a fairly substantial decrease in calories on a very low fat diet without dipping much into carbohydrate intake. And decreased fat intake can decrease the insulin response to a carbohydrate load.

I think of it as the lobster trap of weight loss--most approaches to weight loss involve a decrease in insulin, more vigorous approaches might decrease insulin more and make things easier--but some of these vigorous approaches, the non-ketogenic ones, by definition require a higher intake of insulinogenic food (even a ketogenic diet is more insulinogenic than fasting) in maintenance than during the weight loss itself.
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  #6   ^
Old Tue, Nov-20-18, 09:31
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 19,214
 
Plan: atkins, carnivore 2023
Stats: 200/211/163 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: -30%
Location: Massachusetts
Default

Those folks never learned how to change their food intake. THAT is a process that rarely develops by sheer will.

I am reminded of a friend that would shovel down rice and chips at lunch. We are meeting again at a company after 15 year hiataus on my part. She is short and round, and dang smart. Shocking to find out she had had the stomach stapling. Very cruel IMO. All that unnecessary suffering thru a surgery that did no good. No change in diet.

When will these medical doctors be held accountable for their negligence?
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  #7   ^
Old Tue, Nov-20-18, 17:45
BeachDonna BeachDonna is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 418
 
Plan: no specific plan
Stats: 177/141/147 Female 65 inches
BF:
Progress: 120%
Default

Grrrr! Of the people I know who've had this type of surgery, the survival rate seems horrendous! The ones I personally know who have survived still are obese and live as if they have a chronic incurable gastric disease. They were only taught that any "success" from the surgery is going to come from "eating less", so there is not thought to changing the actual things eaten. Grrrrr. Seems downright unethical!
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  #8   ^
Old Tue, Nov-20-18, 19:04
mike_d's Avatar
mike_d mike_d is offline
Grease is the word!
Posts: 8,475
 
Plan: PSMF/IF
Stats: 236/181/180 Male 72 inches
BF:disappearing!
Progress: 98%
Location: Alamo city, Texas
Default

Quote:
Everyone — from doctors to drug companies, from public health officials to overweight people themselves — would love to see a cure, a treatment that brings weight to normal and keeps it there. Why hasn’t anyone discovered one?
There have been many failed attempts. Remember "Olestra" oil, "chitosan" and those "Orlistat/Alli" pills?

Last edited by mike_d : Tue, Nov-20-18 at 19:11.
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  #9   ^
Old Tue, Nov-20-18, 20:17
Dodger's Avatar
Dodger Dodger is online now
Posts: 8,764
 
Plan: Paleoish/Keto
Stats: 225/167/175 Male 71.5 inches
BF:18%
Progress: 116%
Location: Longmont, Colorado
Default

I switched from a low-fat diet (kept me gaining weight and feeling hungry and eating nasty foods) to a low-carb diet (lost weight, wasn't hungry all the time, food tastes good) over 15 years ago. The 50 pounds that I lost are still lost.
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  #10   ^
Old Tue, Nov-20-18, 23:52
deirdra's Avatar
deirdra deirdra is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,328
 
Plan: vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_d
Remember "Olestra" oil, "chitosan" and those "Orlistat/Alli" pills?
I don't think there is an emoji for puke that comes out the other end (thankfully) due to these failed solutions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodger
I switched from a low-fat diet (kept me gaining weight and feeling hungry and eating nasty foods) to a low-carb diet (lost weight, wasn't hungry all the time, food tastes good) over 15 years ago. The 50 pounds that I lost are still lost.
Same here.
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  #11   ^
Old Wed, Nov-21-18, 12:14
jschwab jschwab is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,378
 
Plan: Atkins72/Paleo/NoGrain/IF
Stats: 285/220/200 Female 5 feet 5.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 76%
Default

I'm always amazed at how easily people sign up for such invasive surgery. Did you know you don't even have to reach a certain limit if you have a second morbidity like Type II? I knew someone who had bypass to go from 180 to 140 which is outrageous - she was just a little way over the line into "obese" just a little over 30 BMI. Because she had Type II, her doctor recommended it which should be malpractice but insurance likes it so it keeps happening.
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  #12   ^
Old Wed, Nov-21-18, 13:01
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 12,456
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/194/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 32%
Location: Texas
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_d
There have been many failed attempts. Remember "Olestra" oil, "chitosan" and those "Orlistat/Alli" pills?


I remember this, my DD1 took those pills to block the fat and she wasn't even overweight. All I could think of was what was it doing to her body when it blocked the fat. What organs was it effecting that the fat would just come out unabsorbed? They had the pills at the checkouts in Walgreens and now I don't see it anymore, I wonder why?
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  #13   ^
Old Wed, Nov-21-18, 13:28
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 14,674
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/130/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 129%
Location: USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeachDonna
Grrrr! Of the people I know who've had this type of surgery, the survival rate seems horrendous! The ones I personally know who have survived still are obese and live as if they have a chronic incurable gastric disease. They were only taught that any "success" from the surgery is going to come from "eating less", so there is not thought to changing the actual things eaten. Grrrrr. Seems downright unethical!


Famous WLS survivor Al Roker is an example of a side effect no one talks about: the fact that a person is likely to become "intestinally incontinent." He must travel everywhere with a change of clothing. Many people find they can rarely leave their house, or only go to places where they know they can reach a bathroom quickly.

Another denied side effect are the neurological implications. Patients have been complaining they developed neuropathy caused by poor nutritional absorption, patients with controlled epilepsy find their medications don't work any more, and people who have never had epilepsy find they now have seizures.

One thing they will admit to is how many patients become substance abusers because no one tries to help people understand the physical and mental symptoms of carb addiction; so now they don't have a coping mechanism which is a lousy one, but better than none.

Personally, I think it would be tortuous to be constantly hungry and yet not be able to eat. That's suffering.
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  #14   ^
Old Wed, Nov-21-18, 21:09
jschwab jschwab is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,378
 
Plan: Atkins72/Paleo/NoGrain/IF
Stats: 285/220/200 Female 5 feet 5.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 76%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
One thing they will admit to is how many patients become substance abusers because no one tries to help people understand the physical and mental symptoms of carb addiction; so now they don't have a coping mechanism which is a lousy one, but better than none.
.


I have seen that, especially with alcohol. I just gave up drinking - not really because my drinking is problematic but because I was disturbed by drinking culture. I see a lot of sudden, excessive drinking in people who've undergone the surgery.
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  #15   ^
Old Sat, Nov-24-18, 17:26
Bonnie OFS Bonnie OFS is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,573
 
Plan: Dr. Bernstein
Stats: 188/150/135 Female 5 ft 4 inches
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: NE WA
Default

I'm surprised they didn't mention smoking. I was skinny in the '70s & '80s & smoked 2-3 packs a day. In the mid-90s I quit smoking & started eating. Binged my way up to over 230 pounds & t2 diabetes before I found OA, and then low carb. It's still hard & I still miss my cigarettes. I'm convinced I wouldn't eat so much if I could smoke again - but there's no way I can afford it. And I can't stand the smell anymore either, so that would be a problem.

If there was a magic pill that could help me eat less & wouldn't kill me, I'd take it. But there isn't such a thing. Yet. But I can still hope.
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