dodger your quote is for addisons disease.


http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache...+addisons&hl=en

symptoms are listed and the first one is:
"Tendency to gain weight and unable to loose it, especially around the waist."
i dont think anyone is claiming that lc causes the problems, just that it may not be enough of a "cure."

I have lab work taken on 8/12/1999 (I was 16 and well in the throes of carbs). This is the report I use to retroactively confirm PCOS diagnosis (elevated DHEAs ~ 6.5, LH:FSH of 2:1). I also use it to provide yet more evidence of insulin resistance, as my random sugar was 127
(whatever time this test was taken it is almost certain I had not eaten in an hour! You have to wait in the waiting room, and then wait again for the doctor, travel to the clinic, etc... it's extremely unlikely I had eaten in awhile considering my feeding patterns)

Cortisol values fluctuate through the day, and are highest in the morning. Unfortunately I do not remember what time I had this test done. My cortisol value was 22, which is the threshhold for normal in the morning (meaning any higher and it would be abnormally high for any time). If it were taken after 4, then it would be very high (after 4 cortisol should not be higher than 17).


Compare this to my cortisol value taken in september. My cortisol was 17.3 and I know for a fact this is a morning value. The reference range is still the same (4-22 for earlier in the day, 3-17 for later).

So as we can see my cortisol levels have only decreased to a more favorable level despite eating LC for 2.5 yrs. This implies better adrenal functioning I would think. It is especially true when you consider the lower cortisol fits into a picture of overal augmented health (so it is not appropriate to say the lower cortisol is from a deficiency somehow)

This is not isolated, and in fact, fits into a wider picture of health that is my 2.5+ year LC diet.

=====================================================
BLOOD SUGAR:
Likewise my blood sugar control is only getting better. Last year (1yr 7 mo lc) my a1c was 5.4 - that's pretty high for a non diabetic, especially considering my sugar is NOT stable (as I am prone to periods of low sugar, both fasting and after meals). This year (2yr 7 mo lc) my a1c was down to 5.1. My wieght had changed very little between these two tests.

Unfortunately I do not have an a1c value for the test when I was wrecked on carbs (with the highish cortisol and PCOS symptoms and high random sugar). Nor do I have one for the test I took 5 mos into LC. I have very little doubt it was much worse than 5.4.

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Fasting sugar (which can indicate adrenal fatigue/hormonal balance) continues to improve. I was chronically hypoglycemic upon fasting. First test (obese & 5 months into lc) was 60. Second test (1.5 yr LC, healthy weight) was 69. Third test (2.5 yr LC, healthy weight) was 71.

That I am not as hypoglycemic fasting and my a1c continues to be lower and lower, to me, implies something must be going right with sugar making AND lowering hormones. My sugar level is much better controlled if tests show no more fasting hypoglycemia (which implies my body has an easier time making sugar) AND an overall lower a1c (which measures how high sugar is on average). The sum of these two values speaks of a sugar level that is stable and healthy.

=====================================================
CHOLESTEROL:
Likewise my lipids get better and better.
First starting LC they were horrid (although I had no reference to compare too). HDL was low at 35, triglycerides were high at 130ish, total chol was "normal" though.
A year later they were much better, triglycerides were 60ish, HDL was 70, although total cholesterol was elevated (but LDL barely changed however HDL went up much).
A year after that (same test with the new cortisol value) my triglycerides were in the 30s, HDL was up to 85, and LDL had dropped too - total cholesterol value is now only "slightly high" (but the ratio is so wonderful it barely even matters).

As we can see, year after year, my heart health is improving. From test 2 to test 3 I barely lost any weight, too.

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I just do not see evidence that LCing will one day bite me in the butt and I am headed for trouble. I started this sick, with a very low tolerance for LC eating. As I stuck with it I felt better and better slowly, and health also improved slowly.

who said that it would????
just curious bc i think everyone here at least agrees on that point!!!

Even though this was in Woo's post, it's directed at everyone, since I've heard the sentiment in many places...



Why is it an insult to anyone? How does a person opting for what they see as the best option for THEM taking away from any of the successes of people who don't choose surgery?

I actually agree with the person who said having too much insulin also puts stress on your adrenals. I think the thing I learned the most is that your body adjusts these hormones so what you think you have today will change if you change your habits. The reason you get worse before you get better is that you get initial insulin levels that are too high. But somehow in the process of continuing to eat that way, your insulin levels actually adjust downward and your adrenal hormones come up. You can control how quickly you want this adjustment to take place. You can add carbs back in slowly so you won't feel so bad and gain so much weight. I wanted to get there quickly and probably gained more weight than I had to. But the point is to have a diet that keeps your insulin, not too high and not too low and that gets all your nutrients in. I took thousands of dollars worth of supplements but didn't feel any better until I started eating more food.

Again, this isn't my theory, it's Schwarzbein's. I am always reluctant to report my experience here since Atkins will be defended to the death. I just thought my personal experience might make someone think about what they are doing if Atkins doesn't provide them success. Remember that it is about health. If you keep your weight down but can only eat less than 50 grams of carbohydrate a day, it might be possible that you have balanced your system. But it might be possible that you are doing a workaround and you know you cannot eat a normal amount of carbohydrates without bad things happening. And maybe it's because you have dieted away your biochemicals. Everyone has to decide for themselves how they got where they got.

Exactly. And why is there the assumption that he hasn't ALSO struggled daily? And why is there the assumption that it's the "easy way out". Since when is having surgery "easy" in any way, shape or form? Couldn't he have come to a point in his life where he has come to the realization that "the daily struggle" isn't working for him and feels that surgery IS his last option?

Really, this "He's lazy and I've got all the right answers" attitude is what is truly insulting. If she's got all the answers, I wish she'd share them with the rest of America and cure obesity for good. Until then, we all struggle daily whether we choose WLS or not.

If I do not misunderstand her position, Ksrt has taken the position that there is a "requisite amount of carbs" one must eat to prevent adrenal burnout, and thus, health consequences from prolonged "too-low" carbohydrate eating. She is paraphrazing The Schwarzbein Principle where it says one must eat a certain amount of carbs to keep insulin from going "too low" and thus failing to make enough of the anabolic biochemicals that are depleted by catabolic hormones (which are supposedly abnormally elevated on a fat and protein based diet).

In short Ksrt has been arguing keeping carbs too low augments health at first, until you hit adrenal burnout & biochem depletion. This causes the body to become more insulin resistant, which causes sicknesses; basically too few carbs at first aleviate symptoms of IR, but then trigger them again later on.

I do not mean to judge anyone when I claim i find it insulting that one would equate my level of determination & commitment to controlling obesity, with a guy who "gave up drinking soda" before getting surgery. I suppose, though, it's unavoidable, since there ARE people out there who ARE getting surgery after making such a half-hearted attempt, and those people are bound to find what I say offensive.

It certainly would be diplomatic and PC if I pretended I honestly believed he did everything he could (this man on supersizeme), just as much as myself, and you, and everyone else on this forum who have been sticking to a diet (most of the time) for years to control our obesity. That would be dishonest of me since I definitely do NOT believe that.

Why do I find it insulting? Equating our effort with his trivializes our (much greater) effort. That is insulting since everyone on this forum knows just how hard it is to lose and keep off weight. The diet adds lie - it is never easy and never as simple as taking a pill or simply not eating carbs or fat or counting calories. It may be that easy at first but it gets harder, and even if it never gets harder (to lose) eventually you will discover staying motivated (and not regaining) offers its own challenge.

I also find it offensive because it further promotes the stigma that obese people are stupid, lazy, and have no self control. Sorry but the image of a hugely obese man getting very expensive, major surgery to force him to eat less, listing "giving up soda" as a TREMENDOUS laborious pained effort to change his lifestyle before resorting to something like that (which is implicit with admitting a lack of control and needing major help)... well it is just morbidly comical. Think about that message. "Well I tried giving up the gallon of soda I drank... then OH MY GOD it was SO HARD and I couldn't control myself so I had to get surgery to stop me from eating myself to death".
I can just imagine the disgust-tinged laughed of the naturally normal weight audience echo in my mind. I know because I was WATCHING the movie with normal weight people and that is exactly what they said: "what a fat lazy slob". I admit I was thinking it too; but you know what? More than that I was thinking how ashamed I was that this man was on TV making such a mockery of himself, and in turn, of me and all others who have suffered morbid obesity.

Let's not dance around the issue. That's exactly why he was chosen: to present the image of a fat, lazy glutton. To defend him (even if there is more to his story), knowing what we DO know (meaning defending him assuming what we know IS the whole story) does nothing to stigmatize obesity, making others have compassion for us. To defend this caricature of a "fat slob" IS to defend the prejudice.

I understand, potatofree, how sensitive you are. I know you do not mean to further the prejudice any more than I intend to hurt your feelings or sound judgmental. I understand my words may seem harsh and judgmental and offensive, because you empathize with him (as you yourself currently struggle with weight you think I'm generalizing to ALL people who cannot overcome weight problems). Please know that is not my intent. It's the lack of an earnest effort and associating this weakness with obesity that I find offensive. I truly empathize with those who struggle so hard and still can't lose weight. I know not everyone's lifestyle or personality or education or whatever allows for weight control to be a realistic priority (and even if it is not everyone has the personality to stick to a diet - it requires a capacity to extreme focus on mundane details, extreme control, etc and not everyone has an above-average capacity for that).

Still, I find it offensive AS a person who controls obesity and I can't help that. It is a stereotype I abhor. I HATE HATE that stereotype; to it I attribute much of the emotional pain I went through as an obese person. People treated me as an ineffectual moron, intrinsically inferior, just garbage because of it. It is why I feel shame, not pride, to tell people I lost 150 pounds: I know at least some may think of me the way they think of that man when they hear it. These may be my issues and I should get over it and yadda yadda but you know what, we can't deny it's true. It IS true that peole think of fat people that way. If I were to "get over it" it would just mean moving on and refusing to dwell on it. That is healthy (and I am trying to do that) but I don't want to start lying to myself and pretending this injustice doesn't exist.

It's comparable to racism, and the way a member of a persecuted/disadvantaged group might perceive members of their group who actively embody the stereotype and make no effort to overcome it. Chris Rock (a black comedian) is famous (or infamous) for saying "I love black people... but I hate [you know what]". I know it's the stereotype, not the PEOPLE we (myself, and chris rock) hate. I also know it is our sensitivities and past experiences that conjure these strong feelings. Still, you have to admit, those who mindlessly PROMOTE that stereotype, they ARE affecting my quality of life. They are providing fuel for the mainstream to judge ME with. How many normal weight people saw that guy and felt a little more disgust about the faceless obese woman they see in a restaurant ordering a big burger with no bun? That woman could have been me a short while ago?

I have found that eating low carb is an easy thing to do. I've been maintaining for over three years and it is still easy. Now eating low fat was hard because of the constant hunger.

would you be nearly as disgusted with someone who went to a methadone clinic to get off heroine???
or someone who used the patch to stop smoking???
these are all facilitators but it certainly doesnt mean that it isnt possible to quit drugs or drinking on your own. people do it all the time.
i certainly couldnt imagine a former smoker expressing such disgust and shame for someone who uses nicorette just bc "THEY" did it cold turkey.

i guess thats another rub for fat people right there, another prejudice....were lazy and take the easy way out, but other addicts are "doing anything it takes."

Those analogies are way off. Using the patch to get off cigs and methadone to get off smack would be like eating atkins bars & splenda to wean yourself off of junk food. I did and still do have numerous "comforts" that make my restricted eating tolerable.

It is not the equivalent of getting a life threatening surgery because your control is that far gone. That would be like a smoker getting a major surgery with a high rate of complication/mortality that makes their body violently react with vomiting when one takes in nicotine. (side note: that surgery would NEVER be popular because there isn't the "myth of a perfect smoke free life" and the extreme social stigma against smoking that exists with weight; people are willing to risk death to lose weight because of the extreme prejudice that exists against fat people).

I know the surgery has its place. I know there are some people who for whatever their reasons have run out of options. Maybe they have severe eating disorders and really can't control themselves - it is not an issue of willpower or laziness or gluttony but a something seriously wrong emotionally/psychologically (like a severe case of binge eating disorder). Maybe its too late and their health is at the point where the surgery is less of a risk than staying obese even a short while longer. Theres a whole host of reasons.

I am talking about this particular case, and cases like it, where the individual getting surgery is basically admitting to a lack of effort. If we assume what we saw was the whole story (it probably wasn't, and they purposely tried to portray him as the "fat lazy McDonald's eating gluttonous american")... then that IS what he was doing, taking the easy way out. As a person who does suffer from the disease of severe obesity, I have problems with this for all the reasons I outlined before.

No offense dodger and I don't want to get into a "fat people martyr" contest but where you (guy with a mild weight problem) and I are coming from are totally different places.

Number one, it is likely your emotional attachment to food and eating isn't one tenth of what it was for me.
Morbid obese people, in general, tend to have more "emotional" relationships with food (yes i know this is an unsubstantiated stereotype but I find it hard to believe most of us don't have some kind of excessive emotional dependence on food as a contributing factor in our obesity).
Likewise, women tend to have more emotional relationships with food than men. Women tend to crave variety in diets, use food sensually, socially, and for a whole host of reasons that men just do not typically do (again another stereotype as I am well aware there are many male emotional eaters).
In the begining I struggled badly with a desire for my comfort foods. I went through a long period of feeling "blank" and "empty" inside, missing that crutch. I was breaking an addiction.
I am probably lucky since I was young enough to very easily "reshape" my emotional eating into a drive for thinness. Older people often cannot and find it much much harder to change. (Side note: I did also become "addicted" to thinness and feel I developed a mild eating disorder as a consequence. Now that I am breaking that addiction again, I feel myself with those same feelings of blankness and emptiness I felt when first giving up food... this time I am more hopeful I won't take on another addiction since there is more "external" healthy stuff in my life like school and career and the world, not a little private distraction like dieting).



Number two, your metabolism as a man is much higher than mine. Likewise the fact you had so little weight to lose implies your body finds that weight level a bit more natural than mine and finds it easier to maintain it.
All you had to do was give up carbs (which was much easier for you than me and many other dieters, due to reasons outlined before). You probably never had to think about calories or portion size much at all. I on the other hand must go hungry often to control my weight. Yes, it is a very manageable hunger and it is nothing like the blood sugar nightmare of hypoglycemia and carbs (it's kind of like an annoyance, like being a little sleep deprived). Still it requires effort to keep it up. I cannot just eat fat indiscriminately and eat as much as I want like you probably do; I and many others must keep a leash on how much I allow myself to eat. No full fat dressings, fat free cream cheese, reduced fat dairy, I often trim fats from meats, etc. I cannot afford to 'waste" calories with stuff like dairy and beef fat when I could be getting my fat from a more nutritious source like avocado, salmon, nuts, etc.

Woo, knowing this can you accept that there are people who simply do not have the intestinal fortitude that you did to overcome their addictions using willpower alone just as there are those who are addicted to chemicals and cannot overcome those addictions using willpower alone. Those who cannot overcome their addictions with willpower alone will continue to feed their addictions until they eventually kill them knowing full well that this will probably be the end result; such is the strength of the addiction unless they can find another way to aid them in overcoming the addiction. Nicotine addicts attempt to quit with nicotine replacement therapy, heroin addicts with methadone. You found (and still do to some extent) replacements for your old addictions in the form of low carb treats helpful.
Given that, I do believe that there are those who must resort to WLS to force them to comply with food restriction. I just don't happen to believe that they exist in the numbers that the current numbers of WLS being performed suggest. OTOH, I'm certainly in no position to judge whether anyone undergoing WLS has 'given it all they had' prior to chosing surgery, nor is it really my place to. The risk is theirs to take, not mine.
I would never suggest that WLS is 'taking the easy way out', however. There is nothing easy about undergoing a major surgery when you are already in a physically compromised state. Often there are complications such as infections and malnutrition. Anyone who has experienced a 'dump' after eating too much or the wrong thing would, I'm sure, take offense to the statement that their choice for surgery was 'the easy way out'.
I, personally, do not find the fact that some choose WLS as diminishing the hard work I've put in to my journey in any way. They have simply chosen a different path that will likely present them with challenges every bit as difficult as mine and probably a good deal more painful.

You know, there's almost no way to debate this without somebody getting wound up, but I'll try ... I "get" the racism comparison, but the problem with being insulted that he didn't work hard enough or whatever lies more in the insecurities of the person doing the judging than anything, IMO. Making sweeping generalizations based on an isolated idiot seems more a mistake of the "judger" than the behavior of the "judgee".

I actually know people who've quit smoking cold turkey who look down their noses at those who "need a crutch". I know people who look down on those who use a 12-step program to stay alcohol-free. It's pretty common for people to turn just about anything into a "martyr thing", as if the sheer volume of suffering they've endured somehow makes it better. To me, and only IMO, finding someone to feel superior to almost seems to help keep them on track. "Look at that poor bastard. He's so weak he can't do it without his crutch... *I* have control." is almost a mantra to keep focused.

In any case, it's a huge leap between "I wonder why he didn't try less invasive things FIRST?" and "All fat people are lazy, self indulgent, lacking in control, _____(insert least favorite stereotype here_____)"... and yet ANOTHER giant leap to "I'll bet she used to be really fat and all these bad things apply to her..." I guess if there are people out there who can get to the point of insulting Wooo for having been fat even though she's lost her weight, I wouldn't sit next to them at the party.

Lisa, Potatofree...

I would like to reiterate that I DO believe the surgery is needed and it is not the very existence of WLS that I find insulting and offensive. I view WLS as something that helps correct a lack of control. That sounds so bad and judgmental to imply one does not have control, but it is what it is. Control is associated with all things our culture values - strength, power, productivity, efficiency. But, thats what the surgery is. To be an addict is to not have control. The surgery gives control when control does not exist (with food).

Like I said before some people are genuinely severe eating disordered with food. It is not a choice. I can only imagine how that feels. I have seen the pictures of binge eater's brains, the dopamine receptors burnt out like dim bulbs, just the same as cocaine addicts. There are people so badly addicted to food, they make what I had at my worst look like strict moderation. I've read the stories of binge eaters driving to McDonalds, ordering meals fit for a family, eating them all, powerless to stop, hating themselves the whole time. I couldn't imagine how horrible that must feel like and I wouldn't dare judge them for "not trying hard enough" on their diet. To have your behavior be that out of control is something I am grateful to never know. If this surgery gives people like that control, then bless it for it is a god send!

I am not presenting myself as some perfect, ethereal, bastion of otherworldly purity & control, either, just because I happened to lose weight. I know lack of control very well. First of all, I am lucky in so much that much of my lack of control with food was biologically seeped in a metabolic imbalance. Restoring "control" was as simple as taking medicine (not eating sugar).
I also am lucky that my emotional eating problems were much less severe than many people. Yes, much of it was carbs, but much of it was also simply having no boundaires and limits (a lack of control). This weakness is also what set me up for the problems I struggle with now; one need only read a few pages in my journal to see how I have a control problem yet again, and another eating disorder (establishing boundaries with my weight, the level at which I let it interfere with my life). Much of my "control" with food comes from a lack of control elsewhere in my life (my irrational, unrelenting phobia of becoming out of control with food again, helplessly & irrationally I harbor a fear that somehow I will gain weight and it won't stop). So I DO know lack of control. I do NOT look down on people who need help because they can't "handle it on their own". I am the LAST one who has the right to that.

I also know the surgery is NOT easy. It does appear that way but it is anything but. I know the struggles of people with this surgery. As someone who has lost massive amounts of weight, I often frequent their communities as we have this in common (it is a great place to find info on handling the problem of skin). I know it is actually very hard to so, and offers unique challenges that dieters do not have to face.

It's just... that man and people like him embody everything that made me miserable about being fat. I mean come on; he stopped drinking soda before he decides to mutilate his insides? I know this might not be the whole story and that he is a real person likely being misrepresnted in a movie. Still I refuse to pretend people who ARE that stereotype exist, there ARE people abusing WLS (and it is industries fault for encouraging it, presenting it as the "hot new diet pill"). Those people strike a deep sensitivity in me. When fat people automatically assumed I was lazy, unmotivated, weak, stupid. I was beneath consideration. You are correct it is my issues here. I admit that up front, and have consistently in this thread. I know it is my issue that leaves me sensitive like this, but then again, isn't it your issues making you take offense with my issues? Isn't it your fear of judgment for your weight that may be influencing your strong feelings for my strong feelings?

We all have our sensitivities, and obese people who "fit the stereotype" are a big one for me. I have a problem because it is my deepest, darkest fear I will become like that. I view my "fat self" as the obese stereotype. Fat is more than 150 pounds to me. Fat is the discordant nightmarish music that was the invisable hum of judgment and scorn and ridicule from everyone. Fat was unacceptable and unworthy. I am so sensitive; I could feel it so deeply, even when nothing was said at all. Soon I engendered it in myself and endogenously produced hatred on my own, without any impetus. I was very self loathing. Even when away from the hatred of the world (when I became more or less reclusive in my late teens) I still was never away from it; after all, I had to be with myself, and I hated my "fat" more than anyone else could possibly imagine.

Yes, I won't pretend my sensitivities aren't why I take such a sensitivity about this.
Then again, to go back to the analogy of Chris Rock and that infamous comedy routine... it's actually very common to feel that way when you have lived your whole life judged and ridiculed because of a feature you have no control over. You start to fear and feel you are that way, you begin to overcompensate, and you come to be very sensitive to anyone who DOES so happen to reinforce that stereotype.

Also, to put aside emotions for a second, it IS bad, objectively, that people are using WLS like this. I admit personal conflict is why I personalize it so much (why I find it "offensive"). That still doesn't change the fact it is wrong. There are two sides to every story though. I'm sure no one intends to do something wrong, and maybe these people just don't realize what they're getting into. I don't know. I guess I should just drop this issue.