Active Low-Carber Forums
Atkins diet and low carb discussion provided free for information only, not as medical advice.
Home Plans Tips Recipes Tools Stories Studies Products
Active Low-Carber Forums
A sugar-free zone


Welcome to the Active Low-Carber Forums.
Support for Atkins diet, Protein Power, Neanderthin (Paleo Diet), CAD/CALP, Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution and any other healthy low-carb diet or plan, all are welcome in our lowcarb community. Forget starvation and fad diets -- join the healthy eating crowd! You may register by clicking here, it's free!

Go Back   Active Low-Carber Forums > Main Low-Carb Diets Forums & Support > Low-Carb Studies & Research / Media Watch > LC Research/Media
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members Calendar Mark Forums Read Search Gallery My P.L.A.N. Survey


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   ^
Old Sat, Dec-22-18, 09:51
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,300
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default Propionate versus hypertension

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releas...81221123541.htm

Quote:
How dietary fiber and gut bacteria protect the cardiovascular system

The fatty acid propionate helps defend against the effects of high blood pressure, including atherosclerosis and heart tissue remodeling, a study on mice has found. Gut bacteria produce the substance -- which calms the immune cells that drive up blood pressure -- from natural dietary fiber.

"You are what you eat," as the proverb goes. But to a large extent our well-being also depends on what bacterial guests in our digestive tract consume. That's because gut flora help the human body to utilize food and produce essential micronutrients, including vitamins.

Beneficial gut microbes can produce metabolites from dietary fiber, including a fatty acid called propionate. This substance protects against the harmful consequences of high blood pressure. A Berlin research team from the Experimental and Clinical Research Center (ECRC), a joint institution of the Max Delbrück Center for Molecular Medicine (MDC) and Charité -- Universitätsmedizin Berlin, shows why this is the case. Their study has been published in advance online in the journal Circulation.

The researchers fed propionate to mice with elevated blood pressure. Afterwards, the animals had less pronounced damage to the heart or abnormal enlargement of the organ, making them less susceptible to cardiac arrhythmia. Vascular damage, such as atherosclerosis, also decreased in mice. "Propionate works against a range of impairments in cardiovascular function caused by high blood pressure," says MDC researcher and research group leader Professor Dominik N. Müller. "This may be a promising treatment option, particularly for patients who have too little of this fatty acid."

Detour via the immune system

"Our study made it clear that the substance takes a detour via the immune system and thus affects the heart and blood vessels," say Dr. Nicola Wilck and Hendrik Bartolomaeus from the ECRC, who have been working together on the project for nearly five years. In particular, T helper cells, which enhance inflammatory processes and contribute to high blood pressure, were calmed.

This has a direct effect on the functional ability of the heart, for example. The research team triggered heart arrhythmia in 70 percent of the untreated mice through targeted electrical stimuli. However, only one-fifth of the animals treated with the fatty acid were susceptible to an irregular heartbeat. Further investigations with ultrasound, tissue sections, and single-cell analyses showed that propionate also reduced blood pressure-related damage to the animals' cardiovascular system, significantly increasing their survival rate.

But when researchers deactivated a certain T cell subtype in the mice's bodies, known as regulatory T cells, the positive effects of propionate disappeared. The immune cells are therefore indispensable for the substance's beneficial effect. A research group under Johannes Stegbauer, an adjunct professor at Düsseldorf University Hospital, confirmed the team's findings in a second animal model.

Short-chain fatty acid as a therapeutic option

The results explain why a diet rich in fiber, which has been recommended by nutrition organizations for many years, helps prevent cardiovascular diseases. Whole-grain products and fruits, for example, contain cellulose and inulin fibers, from which gut bacteria produce the beneficial molecules like propionate, a short-chain fatty acid with a backbone of just three carbon atoms.

"Previously, it had not been clear which fatty acid is behind the positive effects and how it works," says Wilck. The study opens up new avenues in the treatment of cardiovascular diseases. "It might make sense to administer propionate or a chemical precursor directly as a drug" -- for example, when the blood of those affected contains too little of the substance.

Propionate still has to prove itself in everyday clinical practice. The research team now hopes to validate their findings by examining the substance's effects on human subjects. It is already known that propionate is safe for human consumption and can also be produced economically: The substance has been used for centuries as a preservative, for example. It is already approved as a food additive. "With these favorable conditions, hopefully propionate will soon make the leap from the lab to patients who need it," says Wilck.



A bit of loose googling shows butyrate either raising blood pressure or lowering it... you have to wonder how specific to a particular model of heart disease in mice this is. Anyways, the list of short chain fatty acids that might be good for you is expanded to include the three commonly produced, butyric, acetic and propionic acid. I'm biased against propionic acid, because it can increase net gluconeogenesis, being three carbon.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2   ^
Old Sat, Dec-22-18, 10:57
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 2,633
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

Quote:
The results explain why a diet rich in fiber, which has been recommended by nutrition organizations for many years, helps prevent cardiovascular diseases. Whole-grain products and fruits, for example, contain cellulose and inulin fibers, from which gut bacteria produce the beneficial molecules like propionate, a short-chain fatty acid with a backbone of just three carbon atoms.

I'm wondering if this is simply a knee-jerk reaction from those who think of foods that are known to contain fiber thereby identifying whole-grain products and fruits. The irony is that I've lowered my BP based on my LC approach by completely eliminating whole-grain products and fruits. So, I must be getting something in my diet that produces beneficial three carbon atom molecules like propionic, butyric, or acetic acid? If this mechanism is true, I must be consuming foods that stimulate this production, and it would be good to expand the view and identification of beneficial foods/fibers beyond whole grains and fruit.
Reply With Quote
  #3   ^
Old Sat, Dec-22-18, 11:11
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
Posts: 10,065
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/188/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 44%
Location: Texas
Default

Have you increased your vegetable intake any?
Reply With Quote
  #4   ^
Old Sat, Dec-22-18, 11:22
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 2,633
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

I eat lc vegetables, but have been living VLCKD going on 6 years, and eat no more vegetables than before. Perhaps slightly less at certain times. My WOE has lowered BP and provided many other health benefits, and I would say I have not purposely added fiber in any other ways. However, the production of these 3-carbon molecules likely has other complementary mechanisms not related to fiber from grains and fruit, that was my point.
Reply With Quote
  #5   ^
Old Sat, Dec-22-18, 17:00
Dodger's Avatar
Dodger Dodger is offline
Posts: 8,325
 
Plan: Paleoish
Stats: 225/170/175 Male 71.5 inches
BF:18%
Progress: 110%
Location: Longmont, Colorado
Default

I eat very little amounts of vegetables and in the 15 years of low-carbing my BP has dropped 20 points.
Reply With Quote
  #6   ^
Old Sat, Dec-22-18, 21:09
deirdra's Avatar
deirdra deirdra is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,918
 
Plan: HF/vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
Default

Our bodies can probably make all the 3-carbon molecules they need out of meat. Meat is composed of water, protein and amino acids, minerals, fats and fatty acids, vitamins and other bioactive components.
Beef chemical formula: 2(C34H13N21O5)
Reply With Quote
  #7   ^
Old Sat, Dec-22-18, 23:40
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,300
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

Cellulose isn't very fermentable in the human gut. I've read that dairy cattle make much of the sugar in their milk from propionate.

Vinegar is basically acetic acid plus water, there's a fair amount of butyric acid in butter and cheese.
Reply With Quote
  #8   ^
Old Sat, Dec-22-18, 23:55
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
Posts: 10,065
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/188/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 44%
Location: Texas
Default

Isn't some of the cellulose in cheap vitamins basically wood pulp?
Reply With Quote
  #9   ^
Old Sun, Dec-23-18, 22:34
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,483
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Default

Study on mice. Ima be all sarcastic here and wonder if the researchers, the article author, the patients, and the readers, are also mice.
Reply With Quote
  #10   ^
Old Mon, Dec-24-18, 08:05
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 11,203
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/155/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 93%
Location: USA
Default

I have come to see the enshrinement of fiber as a “filtered cigarettes argument.” Fiber mitigates some of the poor effects of the SAD.

Using the research and recommendations of GutSense.org, I have lowered my fiber a lot and only gotten benefits.
Reply With Quote
  #11   ^
Old Mon, Dec-24-18, 08:45
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,300
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

The intense focus on fiber to exclusion of all else might be unfortunate--after all carnivores do poop, they do have gut microbes, and those microbes do ferment stuff, producing various short chain fatty acids and other simple organic acids.

Mice--well, for some stuff, they're close enough. My main problem here isn't that they're mice so much as that mouse models of heart disease don't generally come naturally--I have to say, I never see wild type mice lined up to check their blood pressure at WalMart. At least not if they're fed wild-type diets.


Quote:
This has a direct effect on the functional ability of the heart, for example. The research team triggered heart arrhythmia in 70 percent of the untreated mice through targeted electrical stimuli.


Might be good news for really bad electricians.

It's not silly to study this stuff in mice (or fruit flies for that matter). It would be silly to stop there.
Reply With Quote
  #12   ^
Old Mon, Dec-24-18, 09:35
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 9,757
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 247/217/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 32%
Location: Massachusetts
Default

I did some looking for information on the bacteria that is necessary to make the jump from carbs to proprionate etc. Most of the listed types are not in our usually sources like yogurt and kefir, etc. Leaves me wondering HOW those specific ones get into the human gut......to aid conversion.
Reply With Quote
  #13   ^
Old Mon, Dec-24-18, 11:34
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 2,633
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
I have come to see the enshrinement of fiber as a “filtered cigarettes argument.” Fiber mitigates some of the poor effects of the SAD.

Using the research and recommendations of GutSense.org, I have lowered my fiber a lot and only gotten benefits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
The intense focus on fiber to exclusion of all else might be unfortunate--after all carnivores do poop, they do have gut microbes, and those microbes do ferment stuff, producing various short chain fatty acids and other simple organic acids.

Mice--well, for some stuff, they're close enough. My main problem here isn't that they're mice so much as that mouse models of heart disease don't generally come naturally--I have to say, I never see wild type mice lined up to check their blood pressure at WalMart. At least not if they're fed wild-type diets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
I did some looking for information on the bacteria that is necessary to make the jump from carbs to proprionate etc. Most of the listed types are not in our usually sources like yogurt and kefir, etc. Leaves me wondering HOW those specific ones get into the human gut......to aid conversion.

All good points. This is exactly why the current thinking that to get these health benefits, fiber is essential, and the only effective way to get fiber is by "whole-grain products and fruit" is wrong. We need to understand the overall mechanism better, as HBP is a symptom of a damaging condition that can be controlled by lifestyle (diet) changes. Broadening our horizons to really understand how this works beyond the questionable recommendation of fiber with the prime source of whole-grain products and fruit leads us all to a better understanding. The researchers limit themselves and all of us when they make these claims without realizing they need to understand this much better.

Edited for clarity.

Last edited by GRB5111 : Mon, Dec-24-18 at 14:55.
Reply With Quote
  #14   ^
Old Mon, Dec-24-18, 14:58
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
Posts: 10,065
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/188/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 44%
Location: Texas
Default

I think it's all a crock to sell yogurt and probiotic supplements....
I think the right bacteria is in our digestive system already unless someone is immune compromised from some disease.
For the most part, I know where my ancestors came from, back to the 10th century and they didn't eat those things. Maybe a local fruit once a year, but they did drink wine!
Reply With Quote
  #15   ^
Old Mon, Dec-24-18, 20:00
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 9,757
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 247/217/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 32%
Location: Massachusetts
Default

Respectfully, we need a constant supply. Humans eat cooked foods and well cleaned foods. Too clean.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:32.


Copyright © 2000-2019 Active Low-Carber Forums @ forum.lowcarber.org
Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.