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  #1   ^
Old Sat, Apr-24-21, 18:04
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/232/200 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 42%
Location: Massachusetts
Default Nina Teicholz...Science and Politics of Red Meat in 2021

https://youtu.be/GNRo-IbQ1Jo


I'm always impressed at the level of digging into the literature that this woman goes. Here is her honest assessment of red meat in the now.......
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  #2   ^
Old Sun, Apr-25-21, 04:05
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,803
 
Plan: P:E/DDF/LC-DrWestman
Stats: 225/159/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/30%/25%
Progress: 118%
Location: NC
Default

Ooooh..thank you. Zoe Harcombe does not post podcasts often, but she also interviewed Nina this week.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podca...i=1000518308036

https://www.zoeharcombe.com/
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  #3   ^
Old Sun, Apr-25-21, 06:21
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,283
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/123/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 139%
Location: USA
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I love Nina! Have her book! She really knows her stuff.

We all know how money influences science. We need to work on that in many ways, as the last year has shown.
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  #4   ^
Old Mon, Apr-26-21, 02:50
Kristine's Avatar
Kristine Kristine is offline
Forum Moderator
Posts: 22,483
 
Plan: Primal/P:E
Stats: 171/155/155 Female 5'7"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Southern Ontario, Canada
Default

This is a great video - easy to follow. Nina connects the dots really nicely. I like how she's exposed those guys without resorting to their ad-hominem tactics.
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  #5   ^
Old Mon, Apr-26-21, 08:14
khrussva's Avatar
khrussva khrussva is offline
Posts: 8,215
 
Plan: My own - < 30 net carbs
Stats: 440/235/210 Male 5' 11"
BF:Energy Unleashed
Progress: 89%
Location: Central Virginia - USA
Default

Interesting that those 'experts' throwing the smears campaigns against their opponents for even the tiniest appearance of conflict of interest are themselves nose deep in bias, cherry picking science & conflicts of interest. We face scary times ahead. Hopefully the healing effect of proper nutrition will win the day.
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  #6   ^
Old Mon, Apr-26-21, 08:28
wbahn's Avatar
wbahn wbahn is offline
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Posts: 6,384
 
Plan: Atkins-ish, post-WLS
Stats: 324/269/174 Male 72 inches
BF:
Progress: 37%
Location: Southern Colorado, USA
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The smear campaigns are one of the surest signs that they have no data to back up their position. People with solid data generally welcome critics because it gives them one more opportunity to show how the data backs up their position, while people that don't have any such data feel threatened and have to resort to trying to shout down any and all questioners.

These people are NOT scientists and their tactics should be decried loudly by anyone that wants to consider themselves a real scientist.
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  #7   ^
Old Mon, Apr-26-21, 08:53
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,645
 
Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Thanks for the link, MsA. Watching it now. The "diet wars" have confused so many that it always seems like open season whenever something new becomes popular. The plant-based advocates and other strict dietary followers (it's not limited to plant or vegan followers) look upon any lifestyle approach as a threat if it doesn't support their ways of thinking, so the attacks begin. The vitriol recently has become more venomous. My guess is that's the only way to discredit claims, as the hateful responses are never based on studies, only emotions. Unfortunately, the world seems to be increasingly operating this way. In the past, we could have debates and dialogs presenting different ideas, now it seems everything that is not in agreement is a threat that must be attacked with unsubstantiated venom and drama. Those strident voices hiding behind incomplete science and yet reluctant to shine a light on it are the biggest challenge.
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  #8   ^
Old Mon, Apr-26-21, 09:11
wbahn's Avatar
wbahn wbahn is offline
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Posts: 6,384
 
Plan: Atkins-ish, post-WLS
Stats: 324/269/174 Male 72 inches
BF:
Progress: 37%
Location: Southern Colorado, USA
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I agree that it SEEMS like it is getting worse -- and I certainly believe that to be the case -- but I can't help but wonder if it actually IS worse now than before. If you look back through the history of science (in all fields, including physics, chemistry, biology, medicine, geology, you name it) there is no shortage of these kinds of reactions. In the end, the science usually wins out and the behaviors of the participants (from all sides) are then forgotten. So I suspect that a good portion of why we think it is worse now than ever is because we tend to only be aware of the behaviors of current controversies. Having said that and being aware of that, I still have this gut feeling that it IS worse now than it used to be -- but I can't really support that believe with evidence.
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  #9   ^
Old Mon, Apr-26-21, 09:56
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,645
 
Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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We've always had debate. The difference today is that disagreement with many and disagreement with previously popular thinking is now taken as a personal insult where the disagreeing party is viewed as a threat. This shuts off a lot of valuable communication, as science is never static or fixed, it is always evolving with new thinking and new discoveries. If we look at history, we certainly did have periods where people who had different views were persecuted, prosecuted, even killed. I was hoping those times were left behind through civil discourse and becoming aware of new things by exchanging views and ideas. We seem to be regressing and that's troubling.
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  #10   ^
Old Mon, Apr-26-21, 10:48
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JLx JLx is offline
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Posts: 2,441
 
Plan: Eat less, less often
Stats: 241.2/213.6/204 Female 66
BF:276,255,235,241
Progress: 74%
Location: Michigan U.P., USA
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Ancel Keys vs John Yudkin was pretty nasty back in the day:

https://www.mtpr.org/post/sugar-vs-...ked%20by%20Keys.
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  #11   ^
Old Mon, Apr-26-21, 10:58
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,645
 
Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLx
Ancel Keys vs John Yudkin was pretty nasty back in the day:

https://www.mtpr.org/post/sugar-vs-...ked%20by%20Keys.

Keys excoriated Yudkin with Keys' claims based on no factual evidence. Matter of fact, his "evidence" was successfully manipulated. Bias abounds and the one thing necessary to combat that is open discourse and healthy skepticism.
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  #12   ^
Old Mon, Apr-26-21, 14:17
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Posts: 15,366
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/232/200 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 42%
Location: Massachusetts
Default

The loudest voice is not necessarily the correct one.

A little off topic..... The one time I was on a jury , the loudest guy shouted down every other jurist in the room..... until everyone voted with him.

We cannot let the shouters become the only voice.

Imo people can try different diets to see what works for that individual. Vegan, vegetarian, low carb, carnivore, etc etc. We are all searching for better health. Period.

My concern for some time is the concentration of chemicals in meats. Manmade chemicals. Chemicals banned in Europe but not here.

As for domestic meat animals, finding "clean" meat is the next battle now that Nina has presented an updated picture of red meat.
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  #13   ^
Old Mon, Apr-26-21, 17:11
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Posts: 13,283
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/123/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 139%
Location: USA
Default

Speaking of war: this seems to be a shot across the bow.



This is good/bad because it actually admits some good things about red meat. But these are simply inaccurate:

Quote:
1. You may experience a decrease in inflammation.

Depending on how the red meat is produced, your body may be experiencing some inflammation due to the fat content. Typically red meat has a significant amount of saturated fat in it, and if you're consuming more than the allotted amount your body can have in a day, your body may experience inflammation.



MAY? How weasely is that? It's high Omega-6 seed oils which cause inflammation.

Quote:
4. Your cholesterol levels will go down.

If you have high cholesterol, you've likely heard your doctor tell you to cut red meat from your diet. It all comes back to saturated fat, which is a main culprit for producing LDL "bad" cholesterol in your body, which leads to an increased risk of cardiovascular disease. According to the Mayo Clinic, saturated fat raises your LDL cholesterol levels in your bloodstream. Red meat and dairy products, as well as fried foods, baked goods, and other highly processed foods, tend to have high amounts of saturated fat in itóleading to high cholesterol.


The usual cholesterol nonsense.

Quote:
5. Your risk of chronic diseases will decrease.

If you cut red meat, due to the decreased saturated fat in your diet, you'll find yourself with a significantly decreased risk of cardiovascular disease. One recent study did show that eating unprocessed red meat can also increase your risk of cardiovascular disease as well as cancer.


Oh, really? If you click on the link of the study referenced in this paragraph, you get this slippery reporting:

Quote:
A new study that involved over 100,000 postmenopausal women found that women who ate the most processed red meat had a 20% higher risk of dying from dementia in comparison with women who ate the least amount of red meat.

The study, which was published in the Journal of the American Heart Association, even found that eating unprocessed red meat may also increase your risk of dying from cardiovascular disease. The data is somewhat unsurprising, given that plenty of other studies have found that high levels of cholesterol are associated with a heightened risk of cardiovascular disease.



The unreliable FOOD diary study strikes again! And can you read those two paragraphs and make any sense of them? Processed meat comes with bread, FULL STOP.

It's all designed to confuse people, make them give up on trying to figure it out, and get the NOOM app.
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  #14   ^
Old Tue, Apr-27-21, 08:14
Dodger's Avatar
Dodger Dodger is offline
Posts: 8,575
 
Plan: Paleoish/Keto
Stats: 225/170/175 Male 71.5 inches
BF:18%
Progress: 110%
Location: Longmont, Colorado
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I have no doubt that many of the people who are in the high red-meat category get their red meat from eating fast food. The junk that gets eating along with the meat is the unhealthy stuff but the meat gets blamed.
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  #15   ^
Old Tue, Apr-27-21, 08:50
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,283
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/123/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 139%
Location: USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodger
I have no doubt that many of the people who are in the high red-meat category get their red meat from eating fast food. The junk that gets eating along with the meat is the unhealthy stuff but the meat gets blamed.


ANOTHER excellent point. I now mentally subtract the non-food-value items when I look at a typical fast food meal. It's shocking how much we pay for a palmful of actual food.
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