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  #1   ^
Old Thu, Nov-10-11, 19:32
Jay1988 Jay1988 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 200
 
Plan: WAPF
Stats: 000/000/000 Male 0'0"
BF:0%/0%/0%
Progress: 163%
Location: Olathe, Kansas
Default WHS: Does high circulating insulin drive bodyfat accumulation?

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.c...ulin-drive.html

"The house mouse Mus musculus is an incredible research tool in the biomedical sciences, due to its ease of care and its ability to be genetically manipulated. Although mice aren't humans, they resemble us closely in many ways, including how insulin signaling works. Genetic manipulation of mice allows researchers to identify biological mechanisms and cause-effect relationships in a very precise manner. One way of doing this is to create "knockout" mice that lack a specific gene, in an attempt to determine that gene's importance in a particular process. Another way is to create transgenic mice that express a gene of interest, often modified in some way. A third method is to use an extraordinary (but now common) tool called "Cre-lox" recombination (1), which allows us to delete or add a single gene in a specific tissue or cell type.

Studying the relationship between obesity and insulin resistance is challenging, because the two typically travel together, confounding efforts to determine which is the cause and which is the effect of the other (or neither). Some have proposed the hypothesis that high levels of circulating insulin promote body fat accumulation*. To truly address this question, we need to consider targeted experiments that increase circulating insulin over long periods of time without altering a number of other factors throughout the body. This is where mice come in. Scientists are able to perform precise genetic interventions in mice that increase circulating insulin over a long period of time. These mice should gain fat mass if the hypothesis is correct. "
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  #2   ^
Old Thu, Nov-10-11, 20:01
Neanderpam's Avatar
Neanderpam Neanderpam is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,388
 
Plan: Ketogenic now
Stats: 277/121/125 Female 61 inches
BF:
Progress: 103%
Location: NE Indiana
Default

I'm not a mouse, but my fasting insulin is four times the high range...and it sticks there all the time (see my stats). Why? Well, they weren't giving those mice oral and inhalant steroids, but that's what I'm on, and I stay on the oral steroids....therefore my fasting insulin is huge.

But I'm not! The fasting insulin stays huge, yet my bodyfat is considerably less than it was 100 and some pounds ago. So, if they feed the mousies lowcarb...I should think their bodyfat would be less also? I don't know. As I sit here nibbling my cheese (that I wrestled out of the pamtrap).
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  #3   ^
Old Thu, Nov-10-11, 20:08
Jay1988 Jay1988 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 200
 
Plan: WAPF
Stats: 000/000/000 Male 0'0"
BF:0%/0%/0%
Progress: 163%
Location: Olathe, Kansas
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neanderpam
I'm not a mouse, but my fasting insulin is four times the high range...and it sticks there all the time (see my stats). Why? Well, they weren't giving those mice oral and inhalant steroids, but that's what I'm on, and I stay on the oral steroids....therefore my fasting insulin is huge.

But I'm not! The fasting insulin stays huge, yet my bodyfat is considerably less than it was 100 and some pounds ago. So, if they feed the mousies lowcarb...I should think their bodyfat would be less also? I don't know. As I sit here nibbling my cheese (that I wrestled out of the pamtrap).

Hey Pam, that sucks indeed! I just thought this would be an interesting discussion, as person A may believe in the setpoint/food reward/leptin side of things over person B may believe that postprandial insulin is what causes obesity.

Maybe you are a mouse, you're nibbling on cheese. Or was that the implied message?
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  #4   ^
Old Thu, Nov-10-11, 23:24
rightnow's Avatar
rightnow rightnow is offline
Every moment is NOW.
Posts: 23,064
 
Plan: LC (ketogenic)
Stats: 520/381/280 Female 66 inches
BF: Why yes it is.
Progress: 58%
Location: Ozarks USA
Default

Thanks for the article.

There is definitely some argument in the field about whether insulin is the key here (although even in Taubes's case he has said that fructose probably matters also. Which seems like a no-brainer since that could be translated like, 'liver damage matters'). I've read several blog posts by various other people I like, disputing his proposed model (although it was others', researchers and doctors, before it was his of course, he is merely putting together the research).

There are people with high insulin who are not fat and people with lower insulin who are. This would seem to imply that the insulin theory is inherently inaccurate. However, we do know, from Type 1's, that if you don't have insulin, you don't store fat period, and you die. Now, this might not mean that "chronically elevated insulin is the main or only cause of obesity" mind you, there is probably a lot more involved and as noted, there are some exceptions which bring it into question. But it does mean that insulin is an obvious key, at the least.

I suspect that ongoing poor eating (malnutrition, both from chronic deprivation of critical nutrients, and chronic toxic load) actually creates organ damage all over the place in various ways. And that if all that were healed, the insulin issue might be the remaining focus. But it's probably not the only issue for all people, though it clearly is an issue for most overweight people.

I suspect looking for 'one' source of problem is likely to end in an answer like "well it turns out it's not quite that simple" in the end. :-)

Best,
PJ
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  #5   ^
Old Fri, Nov-11-11, 05:32
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 14,674
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/130/150 Female 67
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Progress: 129%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rightnow
I suspect that ongoing poor eating (malnutrition, both from chronic deprivation of critical nutrients, and chronic toxic load) actually creates organ damage all over the place in various ways. And that if all that were healed, the insulin issue might be the remaining focus.


As I have improved my own eating pattern, I have come to believe a LOT of "overeating" is an attempt by the body to get more nutrients; if our diet is nutrient poor, we will be prompted to eat more of it.

When I started buying better quality food for my cats, they ate less of it. Kind of a dramatic instance of this theory.
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  #6   ^
Old Fri, Nov-11-11, 07:20
Neanderpam's Avatar
Neanderpam Neanderpam is offline
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Posts: 1,388
 
Plan: Ketogenic now
Stats: 277/121/125 Female 61 inches
BF:
Progress: 103%
Location: NE Indiana
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
As I have improved my own eating pattern, I have come to believe a LOT of "overeating" is an attempt by the body to get more nutrients; if our diet is nutrient poor, we will be prompted to eat more of it.

When I started buying better quality food for my cats, they ate less of it. Kind of a dramatic instance of this theory.



Oh, I so totally believe in this, too!

But I have a disease that is already 'tearing down' my internal organs (two of them..can't have just one, just like potato chips yanno!).

I'm not a mouse...but lowcarb (although two of my favorite doctors, one a pulmo, the other my PCP) still just shake their heads (both are overweight!) and say 'I just don't know about lowcarb...I keep waiting for you to get sick from it' ...um...12 YEARS on lowcarb...and I'm already 'sick'...and they're waiting for it to 'not work'?? I don't get this part of it, but high fasting insulin just drives belly fat on! And then you'll get a doctor who tells that person to 'do cardio and run to lose weight' and the poor things will overdrive their last little adrenal and gain MORE!

ACK!!! Vicious cycle. LOL I feel I 'found the key' that keeps me alive, and it's called lowcarb.
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  #7   ^
Old Fri, Nov-11-11, 09:29
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,863
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
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It's hard to tell because "healthy" diets are quite often much lower carb than "unhealthy" diets even though they're not precisely low carb.
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  #8   ^
Old Fri, Nov-11-11, 11:06
Merpig's Avatar
Merpig Merpig is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 7,582
 
Plan: EF/Fung IDM/keto
Stats: 375/225.4/175 Female 66.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 75%
Location: NE Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
When I started buying better quality food for my cats, they ate less of it. Kind of a dramatic instance of this theory.
Ditto for my cats, as well as my dog! I pay a lot for their food, but they eat a lot less of it than they would of Little Friskies, or Purina.
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  #9   ^
Old Fri, Nov-11-11, 11:10
Seejay's Avatar
Seejay Seejay is offline
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Posts: 3,025
 
Plan: Optimal Diet
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 62 inches
BF:
Progress: 8%
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I am with PJ - wondering why anyone is still looking for a single cause.
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  #10   ^
Old Fri, Nov-11-11, 11:18
Sagehill Sagehill is offline
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Posts: 14,561
 
Plan: My own
Stats: 250/161.4/130 Female 5'3"
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Progress: 74%
Location: Central FL
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  #11   ^
Old Fri, Nov-11-11, 11:42
kindke's Avatar
kindke kindke is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 451
 
Plan: my own
Stats: 278/217/185 Male 5 feet 11 inches
BF:
Progress: 66%
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The problem is not insulin per se, it is hyperglycemia and the disposal of excess blood sugar that causes fatness.

Diabetics know how deadly hyperglycemia is, just ask those who have had thier limbs amputated.......

blaming insulin is quite pointless, because insulin is DOWNSTREAM of carbohydrate consumption.

Its like, when something is detroyed by fire, you blame the material for being burnable and/or the fire for causing the damage, INSTEAD of looking for what actually caused the ignition of the fire in the first place.

So guyenet's argument of whether high insulin causes obesity is irrelevant.

What he should be asking is, can everyone consume a high-carb diet and stay lean and healthy, and is a high-carb low-fat diet successful for treating severe obesity?
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  #12   ^
Old Fri, Nov-11-11, 16:27
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Posts: 6,498
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Actually, injecting insulin will cause fat tissue to grow bigger. It will do this independently of food intake. Remember why we cut carbs: To lower insulin. We don't cut carbs to lower blood glucose. That's what happens anyway, but that's not our goal, it's just how it works. Cut carbs > BG drops > insulin drops. The high BG is a problem on its own, and it is taken care of when we cut carbs, but it's not the goal. For a diabetic type 1 though, that's the goal since cutting carbs won't do zilch for insulin.

I don't like Stephan anymore. He uses different terms all the time to describe well known concepts and ideas. "High circulating insulin", i.e. "chronic hyperinsulinemia". "Bodyfat accumulation", i.e. "excess fat accumulation". I see no reason why he should do this unless he wants to bring confusion, or avoid crediting somebody. Stop it Stephan, being "original" when talking about physiology does not help your case.
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  #13   ^
Old Sat, Nov-12-11, 11:49
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Quote:
To truly address this question, we need to consider targeted experiments that increase circulating insulin over long periods of time without altering a number of other factors throughout the body.


I don't think any of the studies Stephan posted meet this requirement. This one, for instance;

http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.or.../50/5/1110.long

Quote:
Liver-Specific igf-1 Gene Deletion Leads to Muscle Insulin Insensitivity


Results in not only increased insulin, but also increased growth hormone.



Quote:
GH concentrations from single samples in individual mice by RIA indicated that the serum GH levels were markedly increased in the liver-specific KO mice (2.8 ± 0.5 ng/ml in the L/L− mice vs. 17.8 ± 11 ng/ml in the L/L+ mice P = 0.01).


This bit about insulin mimetics;

Quote:
In an interesting 2002 study, researchers orally administered a small molecule insulin mimetic (drug that mimics insulin action) to mice and placed them on an obesity-promoting diet. Mice that received this treatment gained less fat than mice that were not given the drug over the course of six weeks (7), consistent with insulin's ability to constrain fat mass by acting in the brain (8).





http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11821903

Quote:
Obesity and insulin resistance are major risk factors for a number of metabolic disorders, such as type 2 diabetes mellitus. Insulin has been suggested to function as one of the adiposity signals to the brain for modulation of energy balance. Administration of insulin into the brain reduces food intake and body weight, and mice with a genetic deletion of neuronal insulin receptors are hyperphagic and obese. However, insulin is also an anabolic factor; when administered systemically, pharmacological levels of insulin are associated with body weight gain in patients. In this study, we investigated the efficacy and feasibility of small molecule insulin mimetic compounds to regulate key parameters of energy homeostasis. Central intracerebroventricular (i.c.v.) administration of an insulin mimetic resulted in a dose-dependent reduction of food intake and body weight in rats, and altered the expression of hypothalamic genes known to regulate food intake and body weight. Oral administration of a mimetic in a mouse model of high-fat diet-induced obesity reduced body weight gain, adiposity and insulin resistance. Thus, insulin mimetics have a unique advantage over insulin in the control of body weight and hold potential as a novel anti-obesity treatment.


Insulin and insulin mimetics to the brain decrease hunger and bodyweight. Leptin also does this. All of these will increase nutrition to a cell on a local basis; they encourage the cell to take in nutrients. So maybe you end up with cells in the hypothalamus clearing more glucose from the blood, and then sending a "sated" signal to the body. Insulin injected into the arm will also increase nutrition locally over time, inject insulin in the same place for years, and fat will accumulate. But this insulin doesn't act just in the brain, it's systemic; and if every cell in the body tries to pull in more glucose at the same time, maybe the animal ends up hungry instead of sated.

An insulin mimetic isn't insulin. Leptin acts as an insulin mimetic, several studies have shown that it can be used, in large amounts, to control blood glucose under type I conditions. Any suggestion that leptin, as an insulin mimetic, needs to be a cause of obesity in order for excess insulin to be a cause of obesity, would be silly. You might expect an insulin mimetic to lower insulin requirements, and maybe by doing this lower insulin secretion and some of the consequences of insulin secretion.
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  #14   ^
Old Mon, Nov-14-11, 04:02
kindke's Avatar
kindke kindke is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 451
 
Plan: my own
Stats: 278/217/185 Male 5 feet 11 inches
BF:
Progress: 66%
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I think there is more to it than insulin, I blame the carbs, Dairy is highly insulinogenic but it doesnt make me fat at all,

Its the starchy carbs that make me gain weight, bread/rice/potatoes,

As an additional note, Dairy foods are very satiating, milk,yoghurt,cheese

But starchy foods are not.
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  #15   ^
Old Mon, Nov-14-11, 13:28
LaZigeuner's Avatar
LaZigeuner LaZigeuner is offline
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Posts: 5,065
 
Plan: ZULCA!
Stats: 353/279.2/175 Female 64 in.
BF: For now...
Progress: 41%
Location: U.S.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kindke
I think there is more to it than insulin, I blame the carbs, Dairy is highly insulinogenic but it doesnt make me fat at all,

Its the starchy carbs that make me gain weight, bread/rice/potatoes,

As an additional note, Dairy foods are very satiating, milk,yoghurt,cheese

But starchy foods are not.


I think it requires both insulin and carbohydrate. Carbs (physiologically: glucose) provide the building blocks for adipose.

Just like you can't create (much) flame without oxygen, you can't create (much) adipose without insulin.

And just like you can't create (much) flame without wood/paper/fuel, you can't create (much) adipose without excess glucose.
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