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  #1   ^
Old Fri, Feb-01-19, 09:51
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Default Ketogenic Low Carb Diets Debunked! Why High Carb is Better

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEecF5fD-cM

A vegan fellow with some biochemistry schooling takes down seven misconceptions of keto that he says he's gleaned from examining common claims made by keto leaders. One small problem I have here is that leading low carbers sounds a lot like herding cats, we're sort of all over the place, even when we agree on what works we don't always agree on how.

One small point that bothers me--if you're criticizing someone, it's nice to say who it is you're criticizing. Herding cats--if you managed to take down Shawn Baker, you haven't taken down Dr. Bernstein. Even if these seven misconceptions turned out to be real issues, lump them all together in a "keto" bucket and you're sort of accusing everybody unfairly of sharing those misconceptions.

I don't think anything he said would hold much water with anybody who's actually been exposed to these unnamed low carb leaders, he mostly covers stuff we've been around on. Some of it is just spin.

Insulin, for instance. He says insulin is primarily for shoving sugar into cells. I wish I was being unfair. After saying that that's insulin's "primary" purpose he goes on about how it's an anabolic hormone, boasting that it's more anabolic than testosterone, growth hormone, IGF-1. And how your neighbour and your hamster would die without insulin. I'm baffled that he can say all that and still insist that forced-feeding of glucose to muscle cells etc. is its primary role. If your blood glucose is 300, obviously insulin isn't doing its "primary" job. How about if you're in ketoacidosis? Insulin has to be lower to achieve this, then that 300 blood glucose, likely. Which is more primary? Even if it's not a usual day to day concern for a non-diabetic like me, I'd consider not peeing my muscle mass down the toilet to be a priority. Primary? I'd consider normal protein/amino acid, fat, and carbohydrate metabolism to be all fairly important.

And he makes much of the idea that dietary fat causes insulin resistance, with a high carb diet increasing insulin sensitivity. Says that low carbers make the false claim that dietary glucose is the main driver for blood glucose. Also concedes that a 30 carb or lower diet will likely result in a pretty flat blood glucose. Let that steep for a while...

It is a repeated and repeatable thing that you can increase insulin sensitivity with a high carb, low fat diet. Also true that most type II diabetics got there while eating a high fat diet. But also generally a mixed, carby-fatty diet. I actually do think a well-constructed low fat diet could be a better alternative to the SAD, if still not as good as a low carb diet for diabetes. Arguing about whether fat interferes with carbohydrate metabolism or the other way around--well, they're in obvious competition. Most natural foods high in one are not high in the other. Maybe our metabolisms are better at specializing in one or the other than at the mix.
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  #2   ^
Old Fri, Feb-01-19, 10:37
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WereBear WereBear is online now
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
Says that low carbers make the false claim that dietary glucose is the main driver for blood glucose. Also concedes that a 30 carb or lower diet will likely result in a pretty flat blood glucose. Let that steep for a while...


When you preach to the choir, you don't have to make sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
I actually do think a well-constructed low fat diet could be a better alternative to the SAD, if still not as good as a low carb diet for diabetes. Arguing about whether fat interferes with carbohydrate metabolism or the other way around--well, they're in obvious competition. Most natural foods high in one are not high in the other. Maybe our metabolisms are better at specializing in one or the other than at the mix.


I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the Rice Diet. But I also remember that he had to abuse people to keep them on it!
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  #3   ^
Old Fri, Feb-01-19, 11:01
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teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
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Having no choice--living on the island of the sweet potatoes for instance--seems to work pretty good.
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  #4   ^
Old Fri, Feb-01-19, 11:23
CityGirl8 CityGirl8 is offline
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Plan: Protein Power, IF
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I didn't watch the video. Honestly, he sounds like an idiot and I can miss it. But to be fair--there are tons of idiotic low carbers and keto-ers out there, too, spewing all kinds of stuff that isn't biologically true. Even the whole premise of "keto" vs. low carb is false. It isn't true that you have to eat 20 carbs or less per day to be in ketosis and it's not true that that you have to eat certain macros. They're useful rules for some people, but they don't really have any scientific basis, any more than any other very low carb plan does.

I don't want someone judging low carb based on those idiots, so I'll ignore the random vegan dude, too.
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  #5   ^
Old Fri, Feb-01-19, 11:40
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Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
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Plan: Atkins DANDR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CityGirl8
I didn't watch the video. Honestly, he sounds like an idiot and I can miss it. But to be fair--there are tons of idiotic low carbers and keto-ers out there, too, spewing all kinds of stuff that isn't biologically true. Even the whole premise of "keto" vs. low carb is false. It isn't true that you have to eat 20 carbs or less per day to be in ketosis and it's not true that that you have to eat certain macros. They're useful rules for some people, but they don't really have any scientific basis, any more than any other very low carb plan does.

I don't want someone judging low carb based on those idiots, so I'll ignore the random vegan dude, too.


There was a time when I first started posting here that I almost caused a riot from some of the more militant when I posted about cooking and eating veggies. Most of them are gone now or they've come to their senses to let people eat their own way!
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  #6   ^
Old Fri, Feb-01-19, 11:45
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WereBear WereBear is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meme#1
There was a time when I first started posting here that I almost caused a riot from some of the more militant when I posted about cooking and eating veggies. Most of them are gone now or they've come to their senses to let people eat their own way!


I think a lot of us were "rowdy converts" and wanted to think we'd found the One True Path!

But I realized, as most do, that there is no one size fits all. And no one wants to wear it when offered.
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  #7   ^
Old Fri, Feb-01-19, 11:49
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
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Plan: Atkins DANDR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
I think a lot of us were "rowdy converts" and wanted to think we'd found the One True Path!

But I realized, as most do, that there is no one size fits all. And no one wants to wear it when offered.


There was one who loved to poke and prod me by saying "I don't want to see you suffer"
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  #8   ^
Old Fri, Feb-01-19, 12:40
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Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is online now
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Plan: atkins, carnivore 2023
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Im with you Meme, I rather like my vegies. Afterall Dr Atkins mentions a rather long list that people can eat, and does recommend adding in more vegies to reach their personal limit, but he also says folks can stay on Induction as long as they need to. ( He also advocated a multivitamin, which I agree with as our soils under commercial production for decades are getting depleted.)

OTherwise, I have finally understood the nutrient value of grass fed beef. It has everything in a mouthful. No need for any vegies when eating high quality grass fed red meat..... guess the Inuits were right.
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  #9   ^
Old Fri, Feb-01-19, 13:36
CityGirl8 CityGirl8 is offline
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Plan: Protein Power, IF
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BF:53.75%/46.6%/25%
Progress: 37%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meme#1
There was a time when I first started posting here that I almost caused a riot from some of the more militant when I posted about cooking and eating veggies. Most of them are gone now or they've come to their senses to let people eat their own way!
Yes, there's still a lot of "you might as well not bother if you're not going to eat grass-fed and organic" or "fake sweeteners are death" and shaming people for eating packaged low carb foods. It's all just too much holier-than-thou for me. Perhaps eating that way is better, but what most of us are already doing is a 1000% times better than what we were doing. Most of us are striving for good, not perfect.
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  #10   ^
Old Fri, Feb-01-19, 13:40
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
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Plan: Atkins DANDR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CityGirl8
Yes, there's still a lot of "you might as well not bother if you're not going to eat grass-fed and organic" or "fake sweeteners are death" and shaming people for eating packaged low carb foods. It's all just too much holier-than-thou for me. Perhaps eating that way is better, but what most of us are already doing is a 1000% times better than what we were doing. Most of us are striving for good, not perfect.


Isn't that the truth, we're eating 1000% times better then before!!
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  #11   ^
Old Mon, Feb-04-19, 15:00
Nrracing Nrracing is offline
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What works for one person doesn't work for the other. the podcast I listen to say that if your losing pounds each we then keep up what your doing. Don't change cause of what someone else says.
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  #12   ^
Old Tue, Feb-05-19, 07:30
tess9132 tess9132 is offline
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Plan: general lc
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Quote:
the podcast I listen to say that if your losing pounds each we then keep up what your doing.
Yes, so long as they're happy with what they're doing. No question, a person can lose weight through sheer willpower and exercise, BUT it's hard. And low carb is comparatively easy. I think if somebody is succeeding, but still struggling with traditional weight loss strategies, then giving low carb a try is probably worth a shot.
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  #13   ^
Old Sun, Feb-10-19, 03:42
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uberfat uberfat is offline
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life would be much easier if that was true

high carb foods tend to be ultra cheap on the other hand high quality fats 10X more expensive.
Good for us if everyone on high carb change their diet to low carb prices would sky rocket
good luck to them
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  #14   ^
Old Tue, Feb-19-19, 11:24
Bonnie OFS Bonnie OFS is offline
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Plan: Dr. Bernstein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meme#1
There was a time when I first started posting here that I almost caused a riot from some of the more militant when I posted about cooking and eating veggies. Most of them are gone now or they've come to their senses to let people eat their own way!


I once got some flack for saying I eat rabbit. But - it's low in fat! You need fat!

Apparently she had never heard that it isn't necessary to have fat in every bite. One can also cook rabbit with fat - I like sautéing it in butter.
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  #15   ^
Old Sun, Mar-10-19, 22:44
rightnow's Avatar
rightnow rightnow is offline
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Plan: LC (ketogenic)
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Yeah, early on a lot of us were carefully picking carrot shreds out of our salary and weighing garlic to the second decimal to make sure we were doing it right. A certain zealotry sometimes seems necessary initially just because the whole thing is such an adjustment. Then eventually most people mellow out. :-)

Teaser for some reason that reminds me of a page I once found ranting about how warm water closed pores and cold water opened poors and everything about caring for complexion was wrong as a result. I found myself thinking, "This is pretty easy to test, isn't it??"

That's pretty much how I think about the effect on fats vs. carbs on blood sugar. You don't need a glucose meter to know the difference between a serious blood sugar drop vs. not having one. At least... it doesn't seem like one should... maybe I'm wrong.

PJ
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