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  #31   ^
Old Mon, Mar-09-20, 08:48
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 5,991
 
Plan: M-W-F ADF (2020 Q2)
Stats: 342.2/199.0/000 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 42%
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Good work and personal research. I'll be getting that Keto meter that Rob is using and perhaps hold onto the ketonix stick and get some pee strips - do another experiment next month perhaps and compare all 3. Thanks Paul for your efforts.
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  #32   ^
Old Mon, Mar-09-20, 10:37
Paul in KS's Avatar
Paul in KS Paul in KS is offline
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Posts: 91
 
Plan: Keto
Stats: 250/215/180 Male 68
BF:
Progress: 50%
Location: Coffeyville
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thud123
Good work and personal research. I'll be getting that Keto meter that Rob is using and perhaps hold onto the ketonix stick and get some pee strips - do another experiment next month perhaps and compare all 3. Thanks Paul for your efforts.



The breath meter is in a different league than the test strips. I originally used the test strips, but they expire and the results are directly influenced by how much water you are drinking. Drink a lot of water and it'll indicate low levels of ketones. The strips are actually kind of discouraging.

A doctor friend of mine got me the breath meter for my birthday.
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  #33   ^
Old Mon, Mar-09-20, 11:08
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 14,041
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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I find the urine strips are pretty consistent by the time I'm eating ketogenically enough that something would have to be wrong with me to not be in ketosis. Like, if I'm eating 60 grams of protein, the rest fat, 5 grams carbs--consistent deep purple. At that point, short of some sort of type II diabetes or something, I'm probably in ketosis.

Dehydration is just one problem with pee strips, another is what the kidneys are up to. One study (I think Owens?) from the 60's had people on a five-week fast. Constant urine ketones. Added about 8 grams per day of glucose--urine ketones disappeared, blood ketones remained as high as before. The hypothesis at the time--and I think it still stands--had to do with urine ph. When glutamine is used for glucose production by the kidneys, ammonia is produced. Very alkaline. The ph balance of the urine is regulated in the starved state by decreasing reuptake of ketones, ketones in the urine keep it from becoming too alkaline. That bit of glucose came with a reduction of gluconeogenesis from glutamine, so less ketones needed to be spilled because of the reduction in ammonia production.

Schwarzenegger has a section in his Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding where he suggests using urine strips on a bodybuilding diet to stay just out of urine ketosis--back off on carbs until purple shows, then add them in slowly to be sure you're not wasting protein. I don't buy the premise, but it's an interesting throwback to earlier, lower carb bodybuilding. Doubtless a lot of people would only think they were out of ketosis by that method, still have blood ketones, but not urine.

We know something about why urine ketones don't always tell you much about blood ketones. There's probably stuff somewhere about why breath ketones can be misleading as well.
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  #34   ^
Old Mon, Mar-09-20, 11:15
Paul in KS's Avatar
Paul in KS Paul in KS is offline
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Posts: 91
 
Plan: Keto
Stats: 250/215/180 Male 68
BF:
Progress: 50%
Location: Coffeyville
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Saturday is my heavy lifting day, about 20,000 lbs. I'm going to do another experiment. I'll wake up early, blow into the meter, then have some orange juice, a banana and some oatmeal and go back to bed for an hour or two. Blow into the meter, then proceed with my heavy workout. Then I'll blow into the meter to see if I'm back into keto.
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  #35   ^
Old Wed, Mar-11-20, 15:45
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 5,991
 
Plan: M-W-F ADF (2020 Q2)
Stats: 342.2/199.0/000 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 42%
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Reading this. Likely pull the trigger this evening.

https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb...st-ketone-meter
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  #36   ^
Old Thu, Mar-12-20, 05:56
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,395
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Very solid review. Hadn't seen this before.
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  #37   ^
Old Thu, Mar-12-20, 06:27
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 5,991
 
Plan: M-W-F ADF (2020 Q2)
Stats: 342.2/199.0/000 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 42%
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Rob, I'll have the Mojo in my hands today - thanks for the tip and this review also put it as one of the long term cheaper ones to use. Coming from a "free" per use Ketonix will be a change

I plan on running the experiment I did one more time this Sunday. This time using 3 methods for monitoring: Blood, Urine and Breath.

The weight pattern (adding water and fat, then loosing water) has been pretty consistent. Since I have never just done the "one day" eating lots of sugar and fat (usually its been a number of days in a row) I was very interested to see weight increase the second day even eating low carb (below 20 net g) then a plateau - then fall off - keeping the 3 experiments close together may or may not be useful but I think it might be more relevant than spacing them out too far. It appears from the breath meter that I'm blowing about normal for my "keto" ways today.

I'll likely start Friday morning with all three measuring devices - likely be very active fri-sunday like normal, then hit the sugar and fat hard on sunday evening (probably between the two numbers last 2 sundays ~600 nc and take readings pre feast, post feast, prior to bed, then first thing monday morning. Then mornings until keto mojo shows > 1.5 two consecutive days - I may monitor more than that - also 10 glucose strips included so I'll used those up as well.

I think I'll document this in my journal as I don't advocate anyone else doing this (over eating sugar, PUFA, Calories) nor do I recommend Fasting (which I do regularly) - ok, disclaimer out of the way. I'll also give first impressions of Keto Mojo in journal:

https://forum.lowcarber.org/showthr...stpost&t=481302

Here's the base line from last two "one day off plan" experiments for reference. I'm guessing my base line weight has probably increased by two pounds or so, who knows what the innards are thinking.

I think the biggest takeaway from this would be for anyone that "cheats" one day, the freaks out at the scale the next morning and goes strictly low carb the next day, then weighs the next morning at a higher weight (this might even apply to fasting next day - have not tried that) and shouts, "LOW CARB ISN'T WORKING!"

...might try to relax, stop trying to fix things that are not broken, and continue with their plan and wait a week for weight to normalize. Hopefully that's helpful to someone that might post here in the Confession Booth. Relax, get back on track and let the scale take care of itself.

Don't "cheat" and you won't have to deal with any of this

March 2020

KX=Ketonix, NC=Net Carb, LBS=English Pounds, Act=(Type-Intensity[1-10])

Date - Kx - Nc - Lbs - Act
0301 - 54 - 546 - 213 - KiteSnowboard-5
0302 - 77 - 20 - 220 - KiteSnowboard-6
0303 - 60 - 18 - 224 - KiteSnowboard-7
0304 - 52 - 14 - 224 - Low
0305 - 53 - 14 - 222 - Low (4 day post PUFA - light eczema )
0306 - 62 - 16 - 218 - Low
0307 - 61 - 14 - 217 - KiteSnowboard-8
0308 - 41 - 885 - 216 - Snowboard,KiteSnowboard-7
0309 - 64 - 16 - 223 - None
0310 - 27 - 14 - 228 - None
0311 - 43 - 15 - 224 - Low
0312 - 62 - xx - 220 - (4 day post PUFA - same, light eczema)

Last edited by thud123 : Thu, Mar-12-20 at 06:37.
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  #38   ^
Old Fri, Mar-13-20, 11:41
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,395
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Looking forward to your data.
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  #39   ^
Old Fri, Mar-13-20, 23:23
Paul in KS's Avatar
Paul in KS Paul in KS is offline
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Posts: 91
 
Plan: Keto
Stats: 250/215/180 Male 68
BF:
Progress: 50%
Location: Coffeyville
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Tonight was a cheat meal. Had 4 slices of Pizza Hut meat lovers 3 hours ago. My breath keto meter still shows I'm in keto. Tomorrow I'll have some more pizza then do my heavy workout.
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  #40   ^
Old Sat, Mar-14-20, 11:25
Paul in KS's Avatar
Paul in KS Paul in KS is offline
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Posts: 91
 
Plan: Keto
Stats: 250/215/180 Male 68
BF:
Progress: 50%
Location: Coffeyville
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Woke up, blew a 9.0 on the keto meter. Ate 2 pieces of the meat lovers and rested about an hour. Did my workout, took about 75 minutes. Lifted a little under 22,000 pounds. Blew in the keto meter and it still showed 9.0.

The last time I did this workout while fasting, my keto was around 1.0 upon completion of the workout. Today it was 9.0 after consuming about 60 grams of carbs before working out.

So what can be deducted from this experiment? I'll be doing this workout again next Saturday. What other variable do you want me to change? Perhaps I can consume about 50 grams of protein about 90 minutes before working out.
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  #41   ^
Old Sat, Mar-14-20, 17:42
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 5,991
 
Plan: M-W-F ADF (2020 Q2)
Stats: 342.2/199.0/000 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 42%
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I don't think any of this is proving much other than how many uncontrolled variables must be involved haha! I'm doing my last experimental "cheat" tomorrow and will track with Urine, Blood and Breath strips/meters for the next week - continuing with very low carb after that to see how high I can push blood ketones as I have a new Mojo meter I want to work out. 1 dollar a shot so planning on only morning reading after the first day or two.

Tracking in my journal if interested. I'm unsub from this thread. Good luck Paul from KS! See you around and good lifting to you
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  #42   ^
Old Sat, Mar-21-20, 11:51
Paul in KS's Avatar
Paul in KS Paul in KS is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 91
 
Plan: Keto
Stats: 250/215/180 Male 68
BF:
Progress: 50%
Location: Coffeyville
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No cheat meal last night. Woke up today and blew a 9.0 on the keto meter. Consumed 30 grams of protein in the form of whey, waited 45 minutes then did my Saturday workout. Lifted slightly more than 20,000 pounds then blew in the meter again, 8.4

So my conclusion is that working out in a fasted state will reduce breath ketones. Working out after consuming protein will maintain breath ketones. The total weight lifted during the workout is 90-100 times my body weight.
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  #43   ^
Old Fri, Apr-24-20, 23:44
Paul in KS's Avatar
Paul in KS Paul in KS is offline
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Posts: 91
 
Plan: Keto
Stats: 250/215/180 Male 68
BF:
Progress: 50%
Location: Coffeyville
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Had another cheat meal today. Tomorrow and the next day are my heavy workout days. Will post back what the ketone breath meter says.
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  #44   ^
Old Sat, Apr-25-20, 23:36
Paul in KS's Avatar
Paul in KS Paul in KS is offline
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Posts: 91
 
Plan: Keto
Stats: 250/215/180 Male 68
BF:
Progress: 50%
Location: Coffeyville
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Woke up, had some coffee and worked out. 30 minutes into the workout I blew on the keto meter. 7.4
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  #45   ^
Old Sun, Apr-26-20, 06:16
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 5,991
 
Plan: M-W-F ADF (2020 Q2)
Stats: 342.2/199.0/000 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 42%
Default

Hey Paul how are you doing, sounds good!

I'm getting some really good data from the Keto Mojo blood meter. I threw away my Ketonix breath meter it was old and WAY to squirly as far as readouts - Starting do dail in blood BHB. I have not "cheated" yet, whatever that means. I may do another experiment with carb overload this summer - currently working on watching how protein and fat affect BHB and Glucose. Also have dropped a bunch of weight this month without much effort using ADF M-W-F - half of that game is 90 percent mental

april data:

BHb = Beta HydroxyButyrate, Glu = Glucose
Ux = Urine Strips, Nc = Net Carb(g), Pro = Protein(g)
Lbs = English Pounds, Act = (Type-Intensity[1-10])


Date - BHb - Glu - Ux - Nc - Pro - Lbs - Act
0401 - 0.9 - 101 - 15 - 00 - xxx - 213 - KiteFoil-7
0402 - 3.1 - 076 - 40 - 17 - xxx - 209 - KiteFoil-7
0403 - 1.2 - 101 - 30 - 00 - xxx - 213 - None
0404 - 3.2 - 074 - 40 - 18 - xxx - 208 - Paddleboard-4
0405 - 0.8 - 098 - 40 - 14 - xxx - 211 - WindFoil,KiteFoil-8
0406 - 0.4 - 105 - 40 - 00 - xxx - 210 - KiteFoil-6
0407 - 2.7 - 081 - 30 - 14 - xxx - 206 - Paddleboard-2
0408 - 0.8 - 098 - 20 - 00 - xxx - 211 - KiteFoil-8
0409 - 2.4 - 078 - 40 - 16 - xxx - 206 - KiteFoil-5
0410 - 0.6 - 098 - 05 - 00 - xxx - 208 - KiteSwim-2
0411 - 3.2 - 080 - 40 - 15 - xxx - 204 - KiteFoil-4
0412 - 0.6 - 090 - 05 - 15 - xxx - 207 - None
0413 - 0.4 - 092 - 02 - 00 - xxx - 210 - KiteFoil-3
0414 - 2.4 - 077 - 40 - 24 - xxx - 205 - None (ham?)
0415 - 0.7 - 102 - 02 - 00 - xxx - 208 - KiteFoil-3
0416 - 2.7 - 080 - 40 - 11 - xxx - 204 - KiteFoil-5
0417 - 0.7 - 104 - 15 - 00 - 000 - 204 - KiteFoil-4
0418 - 3.1 - 080 - 40 - 09 - 112 - 202 - KiteFoil-9
0429 - 1.5 - 098 - 40 - 14 - 158 - 203 - KiteFoil-3
0420 - 1.5 - 102 - 30 - 00 - 000 - 204 - KiteFoil-6
0421 - 4.0 - 087 - 40 - 17 - 184 - 202 - None
0422 - 1.8 - 097 - 40 - 00 - 000 - 206 - KiteFoil-5
0423 - 4.5 - 086 - 45 - 15 - 200 - 201 - None
0424 - 1.2 - 097 - 15 - 00 - 000 - 203 - PaddleFish-2
0425 - 4.5 - 077 - xx - 14 - 248 - 201 - KiteFoil-7
0426 - 1.0 - 105 - xx - 06 - xxx - 203 -
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