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  #1   ^
Old Tue, Mar-07-23, 05:01
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/130/150 Female 67
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Default Sweet Spot: carnivore with oxalate awareness

I love Carnivore eating. And now I have figured out the snag that puzzled me sorely. Why was I getting symptom resurgence in baffling ways?

It was about oxalate toxin. Which some plants ae loaded with. Every time I had flare I thought I was “too carnivore” and had a salad of baby greens with seeds and nuts I would get worse.

I was doing it right. My body was dumping oxalate. Now that I’ve read “Toxic Superfoods” I feel like a missing piece has appeared like a spotlight and illuminated all these baffling questions. Now things make sense.

Carnivore is almost zero oxalate and I was “dumping” but it’s good I didn’t just power through, actually. This is a process which should be controlled. With — the jokes on me! — a bump up in my carbs and a measured amount of oxalate to control the body’s dumping process, which is a good thing, but a strain on my battered bod.

In other words… I HAVE to eat fruit, which I can digest. This plan is working according to the book, which is another vast surprise. I’ve never had the twists and turns left up to my discretion, yet been so helpful.

When we come across a new detail that explains so much there’s nothing better for my enthused motivation. The connections between oxalate and autoimmune issues are incredible.
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  #2   ^
Old Tue, Mar-07-23, 07:30
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Plan: atkins, carnivore 2023
Stats: 200/211/163 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: -30%
Location: Massachusetts
Default

Great news!! Another solution to heal your body!!

Was there any information on how to cook or eat oxalate foods to uncrease the safety??

Not eating any sometimes needs to be the answer but Im interested in keep eating the foods to stop colon cancer. So veggies are on my plate. But looking for better methods to prepare before eating.

Sorrel, raw, is off my plate. Its a definite danger raw.
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  #3   ^
Old Wed, Mar-08-23, 02:04
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/130/150 Female 67
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Progress: 129%
Location: USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
Was there any information on how to cook or eat oxalate foods to uncrease the safety??


Choose from the low oxalate vegetables. Long boiling and dumping water will reduce, but the high ones would still be dangerous... mush over 12 minutes, which is when there's some.

Spinach, potatoes and yams, nuts and seeds, and cocoa are the dangerous ones to start cutting out, but not all at once. She recommends a downward reduction, slowly, to cut down on overdumping.

So cooking works, but not adequately. Fermenting only seems to work in Probiotic teas. Yes. One cup of green tea is 20g of oxalate! I was drinking it all the time! For the L-theanine.

That whole "antioxidants are good for you" thing? Merely a theory. ZERO scientific support. It's based on the JOLT our immune system gets from them.

But I think that changes things for me, moving forward. My immune system is too worked up and reactive. I don't want to poke it with sticks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
Not eating any sometimes needs to be the answer but Im interested in keep eating the foods to stop colon cancer. So veggies are on my plate. But looking for better methods to prepare before eating.


Lectins work that way. But not oxalate. Ms. Norton recommends choosing from the plenty of veggies that are already low oxalates. Like romaine, which is my favorite, anyway. Not sweet potato or yam or white potato.

Calories to stave off hunger. That’s all they provide. Not a source of nutrients, as Dr. Georgia Ede has explained so well.

This book has revamped by outlook on vegetables, which I tend to avoid because of the fiber. Now, I don’t regard them as something I SHOULD eat. The occasional salad will be nice as spring moves in, but all the studies showing it “protective” for health is all food questionaires. The same methods they use to scare us about meat. Both red and processed.

My Italian cold cuts — fermented meat!— (I’m in NY, I get the good kind) have less nitrites than celery. I can’t keep staking my life on anything mainstream nutrtional. From careerism to capitalism, we can’t trust dieticians or medical advice. It’s been messed up since 1972.

My guilt about eating my vegetables has gone away. That wasn’t the answer to my carnivore issues. Oxalate makes more sense, and everything the author discussed has happened as she described.

Gotta go with the good data: n = 1

Last edited by WereBear : Wed, Mar-08-23 at 05:11.
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  #4   ^
Old Wed, Mar-08-23, 02:18
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/130/150 Female 67
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Progress: 129%
Location: USA
Default

I can’t recommend the book enough because there’s so much information she got from all the studies since 1840s.

Our modern reverence for hearthealthywholegrains and vegetables was an extension of Ancel Keys “work.” So it’s tainted. It’s based on six month and one year food questionaires. ALL of our damned food pyramid was built on fake studies.

Ms. Norton has a Masters in Public Health from Cornell. She spent 10 years in the stacks, documenting how oxalate awareness has shrunk to some kidney specialists who are aware of how the diet exists… but CAN’T be right!

It’s not science. It’s dogma. That’s an awful way to run anything, and we are all in the grip of it.

I wouldn’t even recommend addressing it without the book if we have an existing health condition. This is actual detoxing, which ain’t beanbag.

Just being oxalate aware could help already healthy people, but it’s tricky when I’m already so sick.

It’s a wealth of information but now all I have to do is put in “oxalates autoimmune autism” into Pub Med and BANG! So much knowledge that is being ignored because it contradicts a theory which has been disproven over and over.

The part that was missing that explains it all… Ms Norton has found it. So at the moment, I’m not minding how many (more) food myths I’m currently upending!
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  #5   ^
Old Wed, Mar-08-23, 06:41
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JeanM JeanM is offline
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Have you read the book, Plant Paradox? The title is catchy but I have not purchased it. Interesting that I only want in season veggies and berries, never thought about why other than they just don't appeal.
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  #6   ^
Old Wed, Mar-08-23, 09:44
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanM
Have you read the book, Plant Paradox? The title is catchy but I have not purchased it.


I have not. Dr. Gundry is a sincere person who is helping people, but he would never approve of carnivore.

I don't see any paradox in plants. I don't like very many and they don't like me much at all
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  #7   ^
Old Wed, Mar-08-23, 09:48
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Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Plan: atkins, carnivore 2023
Stats: 200/211/163 Female 5'8"
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Progress: -30%
Location: Massachusetts
Default

Thanks for the long reply WB.

I tend to use a calcium dense food like cheese with spinach.

Imho how the items are prepared is key. At least for those without a hyper reaction. Fortunately I love romaine. My favorite lettuce.

Recently, when in need of a spinach like green, lettuces have been a good sub.

Again, imho, cooking certain foods makes it safe to eat...well, safer.
Like treating corn with lye.

Looks like another book to put on my list!!
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  #8   ^
Old Wed, Mar-08-23, 10:14
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/130/150 Female 67
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Progress: 129%
Location: USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
I tend to use a calcium dense food like cheese with spinach.


Calcium in dairy is highly bio-available and does have a buffering effect.

Like the whey protein is 20% of the RDA and with my lowered portion size of daily cocoa smoothies, it's safer than it was before. But this works best in healthy people. Leaky gut is disastrous.

My digestive system is much better now, but I'm not pushing anything. Her site has everything a person needs to get started.

Sally K Norton beginners guide
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  #9   ^
Old Wed, Mar-08-23, 18:10
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Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Plan: atkins, carnivore 2023
Stats: 200/211/163 Female 5'8"
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Progress: -30%
Location: Massachusetts
Default

Quote:
Leaky gut is disastrous.


Much has been showing up on my youtube feed reguarding leaky gut, SIBO, Lupis, and similar maladies.

All had fasting in common. To give the gut a break. And let it heal. For three days. Fasting is easy for some, but usual requires practise to get the body accustomed to this altered state. Starting from a very low carb or keto or carnivore makes an excellent jumping off point. Far easier than SAD diet, lol.

Took several tries for me to do one day fast easily. Sort of two really. A skip day is 6 pm Sunday- skip day monday- noon Tuesday, which is 42 hrs. To go one more day makes THREE days!!

Anyway, offering as food for thought and further investigation. Fasting is very personal.
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  #10   ^
Old Thu, Mar-09-23, 02:54
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/130/150 Female 67
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Progress: 129%
Location: USA
Default

At this point I'm not exploring fasting. I'm trying to get enough nutrition into me at a pace I can digest. I'm happy to get a 12 hour window for early dinner and sleep. Lately I can't stay awake past 7 pm.

The book is so helpful. She also says her nutritional clients get better with food sensitivity as the gut heals.

But anyone can try the lemon juice tip for helping the body clear oxalate. 1/4 cup lemon juice, dlute to taste, drink it down, follow with water.

I do a cup a day because I always liked strong lemonade. I can make it part of a yogurt smoothie, which I'm getting back into. Buying juice by the case🤣

Last edited by WereBear : Thu, Mar-09-23 at 04:11.
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  #11   ^
Old Thu, Mar-09-23, 04:59
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/130/150 Female 67
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Progress: 129%
Location: USA
Default

The incredible irony? I have to to bump UP my carbs to help my body clear, for an unknown period of time. Like from 20, my usual, to 50 or so. Enter, mango! (excited noises)

Made a fresh pineapple/key lime juice yogurt smoothie from Sally K. Norton's website. (Ditched the cucumber and cilantro since I'm not into plants, but good choices if you still are. I reserve my cucumber allowance for pickles.)

And it works. If the dumping is getting out of hand, I have some mango, and things smooth out. Now it's about management, and I have clear rules.

So far, everything she said was going on, I have abundant evidence that's it's happening as she described. That's amazing.
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  #12   ^
Old Sun, Mar-12-23, 09:37
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/130/150 Female 67
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Progress: 129%
Location: USA
Default fifth fab week

I'm starting my fifth week on the Sally K. Norton program for autoimmune. It's like the fifth week of Atkins, or Carnivore, from my experience. Like those changes, I'm looking forward to staying on it. It's another instance of how my body and moods are already so upgraded, I'd be a fool not to.

The benefits after a month:
  • hormone balancing in the morning has gone from being managed with neurotransmitters, d-ribose, and other supplements to fixing itself so I'm only supplementing niacin with B complex, iodine, and the Norton mineral reccs
  • reduced need of bio-identical estrogen and legal herb as a result. (Both are expensive so that's a win.)
  • better sleep with this last week containing three nights of total eight hours. This does not include pitstop time, but I go back to sleep quickly. If I don't, I know it's over, but I am more refreshed. Even though what might have been an allergic reaction on my eyelids have made me wary of sleeping with a mask and I had to let it go during the Pandemic.
  • happy mood is real and that means happy tummy which leads to happy brain and I sing ridiculous things like that to the cats. That's how cheerful.
  • bulk investment is a measure of my regard as I now buy remaining supplements in bulk

In such cases, only if I can dose using spoons. If I have to weigh it in grams while canceling out the weight of my waxed paper, I can. I don't want to do it twice a day. Like the potassium citrate comes in only one size, 99g, and you can take more. But you can't accidentally take a higher dosage than you meant and kill yourself, you have a multiple pill margin. So I buy the pills.

Someone is trying to tell me something.

But I'm saving at least some money by dropping, or not reordering, supplements which helped but are no longer needed. Which I am thinking is a long list that makes me seem smarter than I actually was at the time

But my pregnenolone experiments with bulk impressed me with the benefits and drawbacks. Like my niacin, it's actually easier to take a half teaspoon twice a day than juggling all the little bottles. I'll get them when needed, like in my purse or something. I've gone apothecary, but not pushing my limits. L-theanine is still around, in pills and bulk, but I don't have the nausea issues I used to.

I think that's an astounding thing all by itself. I've been trying to get my cortisol more self-regulated since (looking back) 2010. Probably half of that was it getting steadily worse, which I couldn't begin to address until the Pandemic, ironically.

I realized I had been overly cautious about minerals. My increased dairy intake was doing wonders for me, and the book explains why. So I'm following her major reccs under the detailed guidance of the book.

Our next town over supermarket has the best lemon juice, and cheapest. I have cute little jars to keep my supplements in, and I need more measuring spoons. I have also rediscovered yogurt smoothies, with whey protein in whole milk Greek yogurt, small portions of fruit, and flavor extracts. I can put my portion of lemon or lime juice in it, so my personal smoothie maker is back on the counter again.

I am controlling my oxalate dump with fruit, as my least damaging source of carbs. Giving my body some carbs helps it use the energy to dump oxalate with less inflammation. And yes, I can eat a whole mango and slow down the body aches, fever, thirst, and lack of appetite.

When my hunger returns, it gets met with cold cuts and cheese, so it's a complete meal that is highly satisfying. It can act as a safety net so I can stop symptoms which are too uncomfortable. That's a sign it's doing more harm than good. I should slow it down with a measured helping of an oxalate/carb mix.

In my smoothie recipes (the pineapple lime coconut one, for instance!) all the fruit is low oxalate, I get my 1/4 cup of citrus juice, and small portions. Mango and cocoa are in my diet with portion control. I can have extra helpings of such if I need to slow down or brake my dumping for a while.

It's okay for me to have more cocoa in my smoothie or a whole mango, to sleep better and wake up the next morning okay to run errands. Not dreading it for the first time in three years? Priceless.

When there's a bounce there's no craving it, either, since I can use extracts for different tastes and there's low oxalate fruits like Bartlett pears, apples, grapes, and cherries. Like I'm eating it for healthy reasons and when I'm healthier it shuts itself off.

I had worked out adding fruit with carnivore, and now I realize it did me good to manage the oxalate dumping from eating zero oxalate for a couple of months.

But this has worked less predictably as I started Herxing. I'm dumping toxin so I've pulled my oxalate consumption down enough to do so. And now I must stop lowering.

I can drive when I'm feeling sick, but Herxheimer reactions make me dizzy, distort vision and hearing, and odd bursts of tiredness and energy as toxins are released and cleaned up. DH went through it with an intensive antibiotic therapy, and that's how I know what it is. And it's a good thing, warned in the book, as well.

Herxing is a new and welcome sign, though. It might make my responses less predictable as I'm dealing with a moving target. I also took it as a sign that I should keep my remaining mid-level favorites since going too low is a danger.

It made me realize that I'd dropped certain things that no longer seemed important, like a mixed Italian spice for Italian on a coconut wrap, instead of all that basil. No more nightshade vegetables, even if it was low lectin. I wasn't eating dangerously high, before, but I should hold steady and get my ability to not dread errands in return.

Even when I feel worse from a new baseline, I understand why it's happening. I control it, it slows or ends, and I get an upgrade.

I'm supposed to think of it as a long term commitment. A long healing journey. But I can still bring chocolate and fruit

Last edited by WereBear : Sun, Mar-12-23 at 09:39. Reason: missing word
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  #13   ^
Old Mon, Mar-27-23, 06:31
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/130/150 Female 67
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Progress: 129%
Location: USA
Default 6 weeks & 2 days

That was a wild ride. I have a better conception of what oxalate dumping is

I am so glad I read the book, because otherwise I'd be putting too much stress on my body. I'm sure of it Because the autoimmune flare part is scary. But knowing I can eat a mango or have a cup of (heavily modified) cocoa and make it fade is powerful.

It supports a theory that since autoimmune is leaky gut, and more oxalate gets into the body with that problem, and oxalate messes with the mitochondria. That's the fatigue and burnout.

Oxalate could be a factor for both, because the first thing to improve was my brain. I had a low level adjustment with my first dump, which was short and relatively mild, lasting a couple of days. Got a good night's sleep and I swear my brain and spinal column glowed with happiness. I now think when I get really tired, another dump is on its way.

Thing is, these are like an autoimmune flare in some ways. I get feverish, and the Herxheimer reactions are weird, and the whole thing makes me very tired. But if I slide it to a gentle stop with a little more oxalate than I now eat… it winds down.

That's a very good thing. Having lots of this stuff circulating in our bodies would be bad for anyone. It's a flat out poison in many ways. I lost all appetite for most of my high oxalate favorites, like almonds and tea. I have to be mindful of portions, which is why chocolate is still here. But I also have coffee back! I get decaf, and half-caf when I'm out

But more hamburger and more whole milk Greek yogurt is great. I fell back in love with sardines. Fruit has returned to my plate.

I also slow it down if I need to drive, which I hope I can keep managing. I did that because I need to run out for a few important groceries and have a car appointment mid-week. I also need to time to let my body heal from what I just stopped.

A crucial part which teaches me patience
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  #14   ^
Old Mon, Mar-27-23, 06:48
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Posts: 19,231
 
Plan: atkins, carnivore 2023
Stats: 200/211/163 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: -30%
Location: Massachusetts
Default

Glad to see this is working for you and you are doing well on this protocol!!
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  #15   ^
Old Thu, Apr-06-23, 08:53
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Posts: 14,682
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/130/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 129%
Location: USA
Default 7th week, lessons learned

I'm feeling good this morning, after a couple of days of mood swings and getting tired early. But I'm hanging onto my productive hours when I first wake up. Sometimes, I even get more.

I'll be trying to find a neutral gear where I can take advantage of this energy. I need to find a plateau, actually. The cortisol is rising again, and needs to be neutralized to keep on top of the anxiety. The link between the two has never been more clear.

Marathon, not a sprint.
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