My daughter sees me putting meat in a broiler, oven etc, and knows I am cooking her dinner. I do not feel the need to throw a peice of bloody meat in her face and tell her it is a slaughtered bloody animal..or abuse her in any other way - the ways that PETA seems to think are normal. As a mother, her well being and safety are first, as well as maintaining her innocence..obviously you don't buy that type of parenting - would you really want your children exposed to those people, or come home crying becuase someone gave her a bucket of blood? You don't see "meat eaters" throwing steaks or vegetables at you do you?


again, why aren't they attacking adults rather than innocent children?

Hiya, LisaN. Ummm...well, I am not saying that we were discussing "daycare" here. Of course I realize that "making nice" is not gonna cut it! Why on earth do you think I would be a supporter of PETA if not for that very fact?

I have done research into all of the organizations whom I support. PETA, as far as I am concerned, IS an anti-terrorist organization. The fact that " they are considered a terrorist organization by our government" - our government? What's that supposed to mean to me? Sorry. I'm not touching that one.

I'm glad your kids know where they get their meat from, although I wasn't speaking to you per se`, LisaN. That's all well and fine and honestly, if they DO know that, then why would they not be relatively unscarred by the blood bucket thing display? I guess because by the time the meat gets to your kitchen, all the blood is cleaned up.

It's a personal choice, of course, but by the time your kids are school-age, you could always educate them just a wee bit about these types of organizations and what they are trying to do. NOTE THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO AGREE WITH THESE ORGANIZATION TO DO THIS. This way, in the event that they are exposed to a public display such as the BLOODY CHICKEN IN THE BUCKET, at the very LEAST, they will have some point of reference and I think you'd avoid undue trauma in the more sensitive child.

Of course, I look forward to all of your holier-than-thou, unyeilding responses.

Look, I totally agree with you that people/kids should be aware of cruelty to animals, and educated in this etc...but in a positive and proactive way. I don't believe PETA is the resource for this, i think they are setting back their own cause with their actions. I mean, if my daughter decides one day to be a vegetarian, of course I would support her totally in that decision - but it should be out of her own awareness of the issues she believes in and not out of fear from PETA.

You might want to re-read what I posted. I didn't say that PETA is considered a terrorist organization, but that they choose to associate with and support some organizations that are. Glad to hear you've researched PETA. How much do you know about ALF, ELF and SHAC, their associates and allies?



Hmmm..and how would you suggest parents do that in a way that the kids won't relate to themselves in K-4th grade?
You know...if my kids were raised on a farm where we butchered our own meat and they were accustomed to seeing such things, I probably wouldn't have much of a problem with it. They'd likely look at such a trinket and go..."So...what's your point?" But...kids who are not accustomed to seeing that are going to come away from something like that with a very different perception. PETA knows that most kids are not accustomed to seeing their food processed. In fact, they're counting on it.

Whoa! As I stated earlier, I do not in any way support PETA. However, the idea that a small child these days (or even in my day as a child reading the Lone Ranger comic books and watching Road Runner cartoons) being shocked and traumatized by a bag of fake blood is carrying things a bit too far. Consider Grimm's' fairy tales. Hansel and Gretel. Little Red Riding Hood. Consider the things available to kids today during Halloween season. We lived through them all. Few were "permanently traumatized" by them, though I can say I wish I had not seen "Dorothy and the Wizard of OZ" at a tender age.

And no, I don't have children either. I gave at the office. I was a psychoeducational therapist serving children with autism and their families for many years. I'm also a godmother to a number of friends' children. Their parents must consider me sane.

In spite of disagreeing with many things she believes, I have to admire RockerChic for expressing her opinion. And I think she has the right to express it here, without being considered a freak.

The best thing that has been written on this thread is the bit about children having to be taught the importance of love and compassion in order to abhor cruelty later in life. They cannot be shielded from everything for long.

Rocker Chic, I don't know, and don't really want to know, what "information", aside from the bones and fake bag of blood the kids were to be given, but the one thing that worries me is that some children may be given the message that "Your parents are cruel and inhuman idiots to feed you KFC". To undermine the parents in that way to the kids, even if it should be scientifically true, is just wrongety, wrongety. (reference to my favorite New Yorker cartoon).

Kay

This was part of what I referred to earlier when I stated that I could say a lot more about PETA's tactics from a parental standpoint, especially when it comes to promoting their agenda to kids (and it's not just about animal cruelty, either...they want world-wide veganism and an end to meat eating, period).
If they want to make kids aware of animal cruelty, fine (although there are a couple of pretty good shows on Animal Planet that do already that my kids watch, Animal Precinct being one of them). But when they start to imply to my kids that I'm wrong and committing some terrible act by feeding them meat, they've crossed a boundary that they have no right to cross.
As an adult, it's a bit of a stretch to make that leap from a bucket of fake blood and chicken bones to the message that KFC is cruel to their chickens. Yup...there's blood and bones when you slaughter chickens. How does that show me that it's being done in an inhumane way? Is a kid really going to get that message, given that we've already established that children under the age of 12 or 13 don't think abstractly in that fashion and are not cognitively capable of making that kind of logical leap? I agree that they are more likely to come away from it with the message that their parents are doing something terrible by eating at and taking them to KFC.
Uh oh...now the message has gone from "KFC is cruel to their chickens" to "Your parents are cruel for taking you to KFC".

IMHO, while I am aginst PETA in general and this campaign in particular, I too was unsettled by the mentions of physical violence a la "stick it you know where." While these are probably in the category of figurative exaggerations, even as such, I don't think those kinds of actions would be a good or healthy response either.

Rockr - I see direct insults flung from you as a person as us as people ("all of your holier-than-thou responses"). While you may not be the only one doing it, you are certainly the pot who calls the kettle black with regard to things like hostile tone, insults and judgemental comments. Perhaps your tactics simply reflect your agreement with PETA's use of shock to 'wake people up." Taking this thread as a microcosm, however, you can see that it tends to generate more heat than light.

Torture and murder? I have no evidence for that. Unrepentant, inappropriate advertising to children - yes. And, IMHO, the ol' throwing paint on women in furs bit constitutes battery. I also feel that targeting women and children has very nasty implications with regard to current and historical trends in oppression.

As for the targeting of children, I see the strategy more as a desire hurt KFC financially. Parents will avoid the restaurant to protect their children and/or avoid the whole issue. A civil call for a boycott and an educational campaign (e.g leafletting) would probably get less media attention and have a lesser economic impact. Such measures would likely have a much greater chance of long-term success if consciousness raising was indeed the goal. As others have stated, since PETA would like to see (virtually) all consumption of animal products stopped, I do not believe that consciousness raising is indeed their goal.

There is a long-standing tradition of civil disobedience in this county, but both the ethics and success of any such movement hinge on the word 'civil'.

Cheers,

Friday

I'll share a story about myself, and you can all make of it what you will.

When I was about 5 or 6 years old, there was a woman named Kris who lived next door to my family. She took the time to teach me all about animals. She let me walk and feed her dog, she educated me to the fact that all creatures had feelings and emotions and that they were not to be mis-treated in any way. I loved and respected this woman and was grateful for the knowledge and compassion that she instilled in me.

One day, as she an I were walking her dog around the block, I noticed that another neighbor's dog was missing from their yard. I couldn't help but notice, as I pet this dog every day in my travels. I said to Kris: "I wonder where Bucky is today? He's always by the fence." And Kris sadly but gently told me that Bucky had been dog-napped from his own yard and that the owners were devastated. I asked: "What will happen to him now?" And she told me that he would, hopefully, be sold to a new family where he would be happy. But she also said that there were bad people in the world who might sell Bucky to a laboratory to do tests on. Yes, she told me this. And she said: "Animals cannot defend themselves. They are at our mercy and are so innocent in this world filled with people. It's up to us to help them and make sure that they don't get hurt. Always help them when you can and you will make the world a better place."

I was speechless with horror and sadness and fear for all the Bucky's in this world. I'll never forget that feeling - I can feel it right NOW as I type these words. I was not happy with this knowledge at 5 years of age. I had nightmares. I couldn't even cry about it and I couldn't speak about it with my own family. I couldn't walk past Bucky's yard without feeling sick - even after a new puppy replaced Bucky there. It was almost worse seeing the new puppy. I'm not sure what my mother would have thought about this "outsider" telling her little daughter this horror story. In all probability, I'm sure she'd have been less than thrilled.

But there is no doubt that this incident shaped me. It affected me in such a way that I am the person who I am today, and for that I am grateful to this woman, Kris, for making the impression that she did on me.

I am driven and passionate about the plight of animals. Immediately following the above incident, I actively volunteered for animal rescue, helping to foster and find homes for lost, abused or sick cats, dogs, birds, squirrels, pigs, mice - really, you name it. Of course I am still involved in animal rescue and cannot imagine my life without it. Despite my exposure to alot of senseless cruelty (which can really wear me down at times), my volunteer work still gives me a feeling of such accomplishment and joy that I would not trade it for a million dollars.

I'm a musician and whenever I can, I hold concerts to raise money for animal rescue organizations and I feel blessed at being given my gifts so that I may be able to do so.

I am not sure what any of you will make of this story, but I felt like telling it to you.

Now who is being adversarial?

The fact is many feel eating meat is inhumane and morally wrong. Many disagree and feel eating meat is not morally reprehensible. These two groups will never agree with each other... The only gray area is what people consider humane treatment of these "food" animals.
I personally question the need of strangers trying to shock children into believing what their orginization believes is right. Children should not be the target of these campaigns. I would be just as upset if another orginization used similar tactics. I happen to be anti-abortion, I would be quire angry with the right to life orginization if they targeted children with bloody dolls to raise awareness. I also don't appreciate it when religious groups scare my children with visions of hell, because we go to a different church than them.

I guess the whole point of my rambling is their are issues that people who feel strongly one way or another will never agree on, even after debate.
Religion
Abortion
and I guess now whether targeting kids for awareness is moral.
Debate until the cows come home... noone is going to change their position.

Friday, is that your real name? That is a great name if it's your real name. If not, still a pretty good nickname~!

I have been made to feel defensive in this thread, so I got bitchy. I'll never be accused of hiding my feelings - here they are!!

And honestly, what's wrong with being called "holier than thou" if some of you ARE coming off that way? Why is everybody jumping all over THAT? "Holier than thou" - oh, wow! It really seems like you're just lookin' to find fault. But, ok. And if you don't feel that you ARE coming off that way, then it shouldn't even phase you.

Friday, I think that the reason that PETA over-steps what some might consider "civil boundaries" is rooted in the chronic grief and frustration they experience while trying to be heard. After awhile, it's like: "Ok, gloves are OFF." It's a shame. I'm not saying it's a GOOD way to conduct themselves, but I can certainly understand the frustration factor.

What's wrong with that is that it violates the forum rules regarding personal insults and flames; something that a warning has been posted about at least twice in this thread already.

Below is a link to the forum rules:
http://forum.lowcarber.org/register.php?s=&do=showrules

I give up. I'm out of here. I'm a forum friend of Scott (Kyra's dad) who originally started this thread, but he seems to have wisely left the building.

To me, the lack of response Rockerchick (what ever) has provided to the few of us even VAGUELY supporting her position is enough to convince me that PETA supporters are not very polite people. And I know. There is no requirement for advocates to be polite. But boy, does it help their cause!

Kay

ok, rockerChik...that was a heck of a beginning - I totally understand how that could be so impressionable...but look how much it affected you and shaped your views at that tender young age. Now imagine yourself back at 5 years old,nad having a group of protesters throw a bucket to you full of blood (that you don't know is fake) and bones and tell you how horrible KFC and "animal killers/eaters" are...that would have easily traumatized and shaped your beliefs as it would for many children.

I have no issues with people protecting animals from cruelty - no animal should ever have to suffer, however, that siad, animals are a food source for many of us - even htough you don't eat them, a lot of others do, and that needs to be respected, even if not agreed with. There are a lot of decent places that do slaughter animals in a very humane way. I can personally vouch for that.

I think what I am hearing you say is that you are totally dedicated to protecting animals from abuse, which is admirable! You just need to realize though that there are some of us who are not vegans, who never will be, and we are not bad people for enjoying eating meat. And corporations are not all guilty of cruelty. i have yet to see any proof that KFC is involved in this.

ps...I would like to apologize tothe whole forumn - I have not been overly kind on this topic, and I should not have spoken so harshly to anyone about it.

I just found this:

http://www.american-partisan.com/co...n/qtr3/0903.htm

That's right, this warm fuzzy bastion of animal rights kills every once beloved family pet who has the misfortune of being carried through PETA's doors. People take animals to PETA instead of local shelters because they believe that they will be placed into a home and will not be put down. Unlike local animal shelters, PETA doesn't even bother trying to find homes for these pets. All of them are killed within a few hours. In fact, PETA has gone through several area vets, and they refused to euthanize healthy animals. Finally PETA constructed their own facilities for this practice.

Any comments?