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  #46   ^
Old Mon, Oct-21-19, 05:44
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,120
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Thanks, Janet, I'll try and locate the threads with the Bikman links. That explains why I'm having no success with Advanced Search lately. It gives me a very short list of results from over 10 years ago.
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  #47   ^
Old Mon, Oct-21-19, 07:59
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,120
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Given the limitations of the Advanced Search function, we may need to start a new thread with Bikman videos and podcasts. Here are some of the ones I've watched, posted:

Bikman Links (videos that can be watched or listened to as podcasts):

Low Carb Breckenridge (3Mar2017):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t1JN0RgvO4

Low Carb Down Under (8Apr2018 - the one that drew attention to Ben Bikman with much information about protein consumption in low carb vs SAD):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3fO5aTD6JU

Low Carb Denver (28Mar2019):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCJS2m92KwI
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  #48   ^
Old Mon, Oct-21-19, 08:33
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,120
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
A good new podcast with Dr. Ben Bikman. https://www.peak-human.com/post/dr-...xSkbYy-AizOxT8o

Excellent information, and the interviewer complements and pulls out Bikman's findings and knowledge. Well worth the listen. Touches on the fear due to the mistaken notion of too much protein consumption by lc or keto people triggering spikes in blood glucose due to gluconeogenesis. Also, the observation based on findings that as long as one is producing ketones, they are still in a fasted state as opposed to starvation that triggers muscle waste for energy production. We are learning with better studies. These findings also support Dr. Westman's contention that the "onboard pantry" of fat is adequate, and there is no need to over-consume fat beyond that found in healthy whole foods. Thanks, Janet.
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  #49   ^
Old Mon, Oct-21-19, 09:43
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,211
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Great idea if you could start a Dr. Ben Bikman post/source of best talks. Are those the three mentioned in the podcast?
I was driving when Dr. Bikman mentioned how crazy it is for people to be drinking pure fat, that such a source of concentrated energy would not have even been available in ancestral diets. I hope not too many people at that light thought I was crazy talking to the media screen.
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  #50   ^
Old Mon, Oct-21-19, 10:58
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,756
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Well, there were coconuts... also much larger, fattier animals. And we would seek out fattier nuts and seeds. A lot is made of how lean wild animals are--even ten percent fat to lean gets you to a 50 percent fat diet (lean hydrated tissue, about 1 calorie a gram, fat, 9 calories a gram). Also animal fat stores well, even with old technologies. Remember oolichan grease, we were talking about that a lot when Jay Wortman came on the scene, yearly harvests of those little oily fishies gave people a source of monounsaturated fat that lasted them much of the year.

When food was seasonal--likely it made sense to fatten up alongside the animals on plant foods when gathering was more fruitful *cough* and then eat the animals once it wasn't. Deer might be possible to eat year-round, but a person with foresight might prefer to harvest when the animals are fat. Having some fatty pemmican stored up from the previous late summer/early fall is a better strategy than harvesting emaciated deer in the late spring.

The real problem for a lot of people was likely where to find fungus free organic fair trade coffee when they didn't even know coffee existed yet.
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  #51   ^
Old Mon, Oct-21-19, 11:01
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,756
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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I might be biased by my personal experience, going to fatty fat fat intake, I'm much leaner, have been for several years, than when I was on a more protein-centric low carb diet. Carbs have gotten stricter as well, but at the very least, there's some context under which much increased fat is not making me fatter.
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  #52   ^
Old Mon, Oct-21-19, 11:36
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,120
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Great idea if you could start a Dr. Ben Bikman post/source of best talks. Are those the three mentioned in the podcast?
I was driving when Dr. Bikman mentioned how crazy it is for people to be drinking pure fat, that such a source of concentrated energy would not have even been available in ancestral diets. I hope not too many people at that light thought I was crazy talking to the media screen.

I believe these were the ones referenced, and he particularly picked out the one posted on 8 April 2018, but all have enough differences that they're not repeats despite covering similar information. I'll try and find more. Given that Bikman is actively involved in research that is interesting to this forum, keeping abreast of his findings is informative, and it would be good to have a Bikman source we can all find.

Be careful talking to your media source at traffic lights, I've gotten some strange looks in those situations . . . .
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  #53   ^
Old Mon, Oct-21-19, 11:51
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,120
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
Well, there were coconuts... also much larger, fattier animals. And we would seek out fattier nuts and seeds. A lot is made of how lean wild animals are--even ten percent fat to lean gets you to a 50 percent fat diet (lean hydrated tissue, about 1 calorie a gram, fat, 9 calories a gram). Also animal fat stores well, even with old technologies. Remember oolichan grease, we were talking about that a lot when Jay Wortman came on the scene, yearly harvests of those little oily fishies gave people a source of monounsaturated fat that lasted them much of the year.

When food was seasonal--likely it made sense to fatten up alongside the animals on plant foods when gathering was more fruitful *cough* and then eat the animals once it wasn't. Deer might be possible to eat year-round, but a person with foresight might prefer to harvest when the animals are fat. Having some fatty pemmican stored up from the previous late summer/early fall is a better strategy than harvesting emaciated deer in the late spring.

The real problem for a lot of people was likely where to find fungus free organic fair trade coffee when they didn't even know coffee existed yet.

Yeah, fungus free must have been very difficult to find in those times . . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
I might be biased by my personal experience, going to fatty fat fat intake, I'm much leaner, have been for several years, than when I was on a more protein-centric low carb diet. Carbs have gotten stricter as well, but at the very least, there's some context under which much increased fat is not making me fatter.

I have no doubt that your ratio of fat to protein works extremely well. You've found a ratio that works for you. I've increased protein consumption as I get older, and, as mentioned in other threads, blood ketones do not go down. It's nice to hear Bikman's research confirms that as well, and that I don't risk muscle wasting when I do IF. I also understand why the carnivore approach is so successful for some. There was a time when I thought bulletproof coffee was the answer. That was a short time, and my response to no dairy (eliminate HWC in my coffee, that was tough ) and increased protein has been very positive in maintenance.

Also, when we talk about oolichan grease and pemmican, the climate had a large influence on how much of an energy source was required to get through cold periods. Given that fat is easy to store and has a huge contribution of calories, it seems to have been the ideal source for many peoples. Closer to the equator, not so much.
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  #54   ^
Old Mon, Oct-21-19, 13:00
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,756
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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I come from a long line of pigment-challenge northern European people--although my personal colour seems to favour my 1/8th Italian heritage. So we have winter, fairly high fat animal foods get more important. Animals that fattened up in lusher seasons could also become more important during drought/dry seasons...anecdotes of pygmy feasting on elephant for days when one became available. Coconuts, palm oil, various nuts...I think it depends, we have peoples today who are basically neolithic (or were, things have changed even since we started talking about some of these folk not that many years ago on the forum), Tokelauns (sp?) eating 70 percent of calories or some similarily crazy sounding number when Taubes wrote GCBC is an example, I would bet there are places where at one time other groups were as highly dependent on palm oil. !Kung, the people featured in The Gods Must Be Crazy, get 65 percent plus (or got, who knows now) of their calories from Mongongo nuts much of the year, that one's an omega 6 "paradox," it's very high in linoleic acid. There's more year round fruit available near the equator, but the ratio of carbohydrate to fat/protein available is probably still significantly higher than before modern farming.

You didn't say--"people with ancestry closer to the equator do better with fruit, high carb, etc." so I want to address it while not putting words in your mouth. But I've seen people go there--and if that were the case, it predicts a low carb diet being ineffective for such people. Which doesn't seem to be the case, or at least doesn't seem to have been demonstrated, which is almost as good much of the time.
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  #55   ^
Old Mon, Oct-21-19, 16:21
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,120
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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My comment, which I could have stated more clearly, was a contention that people in the northern or southern arctic climes had food sources with much fat, saturated, mono, and poly sources from the animals harvested in those regions during fall and winter. I'm not sure whether people with ancestry closer to the equator would do better with fruit and high carb, but my assumption is that the indigenous people who lived closer to the equator had a different combination of fats available due to the longer growing seasons and adapted well to that. I'm not sure what even constituted high carb in those regions, but I'd wager their macros were very different than a SAD, and they never had to contend with manufactured seed oils.

I do know that none of them far north, south or equatorial had cheese doodles, as the grocery stores were very inconvenient to get to in those days . . . . . and deliveries were out of the question . . . .
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  #56   ^
Old Mon, Oct-21-19, 16:49
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,756
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

My very recent ancestors ate an awful lot of cheese doodle equivalents, but I can't say they thrived on them.

You probably did state yourself clearly, I just had time to be a fussbudget, Monday is part of my weekend. I do think it's a useful line of conjecture, don't know if outside of extremes--some groups that for longer time spans ate little or no carbs, some that ate what we would call very low protein--there's going to be that strong a variation from population to population. Some groups did eat omega six fat levels comparable to what we eat today--if it was found that they had some adaptation to omega 6 related metabolism, that would be interesting, if excess omega 6 was generally hazardous to humans, you'd expect some sort of adaptation in groups that have been exposed long enough.
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