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  #1   ^
Old Sat, Dec-31-11, 10:35
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,842
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
Default The case against chronic cardio

I see it all the time here: Someone, usually a woman, is doing a LOT of cardio exercise every week, sometimes daily. They stall, they drop their calories and increase their exercise, they continue to stall. They blame the diet. Why? Because we all know that the key to weight loss is exercise more, eat less. It is drummed into our heads through every possible auditory and visual orifice.

But despite the brainwashing our bodies don't believe it for a minute.

Here's a pretty good write-up.

http://renegadewellness.org/2011/03...ronic-cardio-2/

Quote:
The Literature

Recent research in exercise science has proven all of the following resulting from a regimen of chronic cardio:

hyperinsulinemia (chronically high insulin)
10-20x increase in oxidative damage
elevated cortisol (stress hormone) and therefore compounding any preexisting stress
increased systemic inflammation (including contributing to heart disease)
increased susceptibility to infection
loss of bone density/lean muscle tissue
encouraged fat deposit
increased taxation on adrenals
decreased testosterone (one of my personal favorite quotes from world renown strength coach Charles Poliquin: “exercise induced castration”)
proportionally high in overuse injuries
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  #2   ^
Old Sat, Dec-31-11, 11:05
cnmLisa's Avatar
cnmLisa cnmLisa is offline
Every day is day one
Posts: 7,776
 
Plan: AtkinsMaintenance/IF
Stats: 185/145/155 Female 5'5
BF:
Progress: 133%
Location: Oregon Coast
Default

Nancy....

Has anyone ever defined "chronic". I'm just wondering. (Not that chronic cardio would ever be MY problem ) But it would be nice to know what the so-called experts consider chronic.

I'm going to copy this list and use it for my patients.
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  #3   ^
Old Sat, Dec-31-11, 11:37
Judynyc's Avatar
Judynyc Judynyc is offline
Attitude is a Choice
Posts: 30,111
 
Plan: No sugar, flour, wheat
Stats: 228.4/209.0/170 Female 5'6"
BF:stl/too/mch
Progress: 33%
Location: NYC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnmLisa
Nancy....

Has anyone ever defined "chronic". I'm just wondering. (Not that chronic cardio would ever be MY problem ) But it would be nice to know what the so-called experts consider chronic.

I'm going to copy this list and use it for my patients.

Thats a great question Lisa!!
I'd like to be getting 15-20 minutes of cardio, 2-3 days per week. I think that would be ideal.
Chronic cardio, to me, is 40-60 minutes, or more, a day.
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  #4   ^
Old Sat, Dec-31-11, 12:02
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
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Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
Default

Here's what Mark writes:

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/chronic-cardio/

Quote:
30 minutes to an hour of low to moderate level aerobic movement such as walking briskly, hiking, cycling, etc.

That would be a lot in my book. Maybe 15-30 minutes, IMHO. I think the key is low to moderate.

Too much and you produce a lot of cortisol, inflammation and so on. I always felt that a little, low-key cardio with some momentary sprints (higher exertion) a couple times, always made me feel best.

Mark cites his own experience where his performance improved after he stopped training so much, and he stopped injuring himself all the time too.
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  #5   ^
Old Sat, Dec-31-11, 12:39
Judynyc's Avatar
Judynyc Judynyc is offline
Attitude is a Choice
Posts: 30,111
 
Plan: No sugar, flour, wheat
Stats: 228.4/209.0/170 Female 5'6"
BF:stl/too/mch
Progress: 33%
Location: NYC
Default

Is that 15-30 minutes daily, Nancy?
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  #6   ^
Old Sat, Dec-31-11, 13:49
madeyna's Avatar
madeyna madeyna is offline
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Posts: 936
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 168/128/130 Female 5.3
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Default

The article really does,t say anything because as already noted he doesn,t define what he considers cronic cardio. First he lightly links it with jumping around arobics (which we have know for a long time is a good way to get injured) then towards the end he links it with cardio machines. Considering all the evidence in favor of cardio I think this kind of half backed article is more harmful than good.
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  #7   ^
Old Sat, Dec-31-11, 16:01
LaZigeuner's Avatar
LaZigeuner LaZigeuner is offline
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Posts: 5,065
 
Plan: ZULCA!
Stats: 353/279.2/175 Female 64 in.
BF: For now...
Progress: 41%
Location: U.S.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by madeyna
Considering all the evidence in favor of cardio ... .


Links?

Is this evidence specific for showing the benefits of cardio as a tool to lose weight?

Does this evidence address the question of "chronic" vs. non-chronic---both as to definition(s) and as to supposed benefit?
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  #8   ^
Old Sat, Dec-31-11, 16:23
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,842
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
Default

Mark defines it as 70-80% of maximum heart, I believe.

What in our evolutionary history supports exercising that much for that long? Yeah, I know some bushmen will follow a deer for hours and run it down, but I doubt they do it every day.

Sustained sorts of cardiac (it doesn't have to be jumping around, it can be running, elliptical, climbing stairs, whatever...) produces a lot of cortisol. I'd really like to see chronic cardiacs take a 24 hour cortisol test and see what sort of results they get.
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  #9   ^
Old Sat, Dec-31-11, 17:04
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Neanderpam Neanderpam is offline
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Posts: 1,388
 
Plan: Ketogenic now
Stats: 277/121/125 Female 61 inches
BF:
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Location: NE Indiana
Default

The test that would be 'quicker' and show results of a 'too much cortisol burden' would be a fasting insulin test. If fasting insulin is high, then doing almost ANY cardio will be counter productive to losing weight.
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  #10   ^
Old Sat, Dec-31-11, 22:16
dmarie328 dmarie328 is offline
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Posts: 281
 
Plan: adkins
Stats: 140/122/110 Female 5'0''
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Progress: 60%
Default

The only exercise I like is swimming....but I'm kind of lazy...no I'm really lazy.
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  #11   ^
Old Sun, Jan-01-12, 08:08
aj_cohn's Avatar
aj_cohn aj_cohn is offline
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Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 213/167/165 Male 65 in.
BF:35%/23%/20%
Progress: 96%
Location: United States
Default

[citations needed]

Both of these blog posts are long on assertions and short on references. We're always clamoring for access to full medical nutrition studies to examine the methodology (much of which is shoddy). In this case, though, we're willing to accept arguments without so much as links to study abstracts. This smacks of confirmation bias.

Last edited by aj_cohn : Sun, Jan-01-12 at 08:19.
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  #12   ^
Old Wed, Jan-11-12, 10:06
Mike_O Mike_O is offline
New Member
Posts: 21
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 190/170/155 Male 68 inches
BF:
Progress: 57%
Location: Texas, USA
Default

I don't know who coined the term "chronic cardio" and its dangers but I believe the interpretation by many folks is wrong - certainly confirmed by reading this thread and the linked articles.

If we believe Mark Sisson (see link above) the definition of "chronic cardio" is "long stretches at a sustained heart rate in the 80+% range." According to Sisson, chronic cardio is very bad in many ways.

What Sisson DOES recommend is "30 minutes to an hour of low to moderate level aerobic movement such as walking briskly, hiking, cycling, etc.... For very fit people, this could be as high as 70-80% of your maximum heart rate, but we’re really talking 60-70% for most people." He goes on to suggest interval and strength training.

It is especially important to read these articles carefully and not jump to conclusions that might be detrimental to overall health.
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