I had originally posted this in the main forum, but I'm afraid it will be lost in that thread. We were discussing reasons for not losing weight - a hot topic. I hope it is okay to move it here. (I will delete it from the other place.) I am seriously interested in some opinions.

What is everybody's take on the cheese problem? In the PPP, they say that two main causes of not losing are overeating cheese and nuts. Is it the high calories? Fat?

At Superstore I can buy NN cheese lite that has virtually the same carbs as regular cheese. I looked at the Cheddar medium lite that is in my fridge. Per 30 g. it has .4 carbs, 91 calories and 5.9 g. fat. Their NN cream cheese also has almost the same carb count as regular.

Anyway, would using lite cheese make a difference?

There is a really good cheese on the market called Hi-Lo from Black Diamond. It may be worth taking a look at.

Cheese, and dairy is definitely a staller for me. In fact, even in my lowFAT days, I found skim milk and cottage cheese were problematic.

I've been thinking about the problem with dairy for a long time now. Just what is it that could be causing the problem?? Is it the carbs ?? Is it the fat ??? Is it the salt in cheese ?? Is it the binding effect it has on the bowel??? ....

For the record, I have scoured the web and the public library for information ... and haven't come up with any solid answers -- yet. But I have come up with some theories.

First, think of the hormones in milk. I'm not talking artificially added hormones. I'm talking about organic hormones that are found naturally in milk. Think about it ... big, lactating, ovulating cows = estrogen, progesterone, lactoferrin, etc ...... When I was a teenager, drinking milk made my acne worse, and the dr. told me it was the hormones in milk. It stands to reason those same hormones may be screwing up my weight loss efforts. And it seems to be that most lowcarbers experiencing the cheese/dairy stall problems are women. Hmmmm....

Second, I've pretty much ruled out the carbs in cheese as being a stall problem ... Unless of course a person isn't counting the carbs in cheese/cream, or assumes that dairy products are zero carb foods that can be eaten freely like meat or chicken. Most serious lowcarbers are taking the carbs into consideration in the daily total. Lactose is no better or no worse than any other sugar, unless of course you are lactose intolerant. It just doesn't stand to reason that 3 carbs' worth of lactose are any different from 3 carbs' worth of fructose or glucose from vegetables.

Third, the main protein in milk is casein. Casein is what gets separated out in the cheese-making process, and becomes the curds which are made into cheese. Casein is the protein most likely to cause milk allergy. Many food allergies go undetected, because the symptoms are very subtle. But frequent symptoms can be bloating; fluid retention; puffy face, hands and feet; constipation; weight gain --- likely due to the fluid retention. It's possible then, that some of us might have a mild allergy to the casein in cow's milk ..... I don't seem to have a problem with butter, because it's pure fat, there is no protein. I've also been using goat and sheep milk cheeses (sparingly) ... the casein protein from these mammals is smaller, much closer to human milk than cow milk. I certainly don't have the digestive gas and constipation effect as with regular cheese.

Interesting to note ... the better quality lowcarb shakes made from purified, filtered isolated whey protein contain NO casein. In fact, you're not supposed to add any milk or cream or other dairy to the whey protein, because the casein in the cream will bind with the whey protein, and prevent it from being absorbed. I usually just add water to mine, and some flax meal, a dot of vanilla or other flavour and use a blender to make it nice and creamy.

Ok, these are just my theories and ruminations, and hardly scientific. Definitely not double-blind, placebo controlled. But a little more than 2 cents worth, I hope...

Doreen

Thanks a lot, Doreen.

You've given me a lot to think about.

Doreen, I printed out your essay and read it over a few times last night. I'm glad I'm not the only one that has puzzled over this.

I have been eating less cheese as time goes by. At first it was such a delight that cheese was no longer a forbidden food (especially cream cheese . . . well, also melted cheddar, well . . . also brie); none of us could get enough. Lately the cheese seems to stay in the fridge a lot longer.

Have you looked into the yeast theory in Chapter 13 of the New Diet Revolution? I sure would hate to have to go that far - give up my occasional slice of low-carb yeast bread, or sauted mushrooms as well? No! It's asking too much!
(It's okay - on rereading the chapter I decided I don't have the symptoms.)

I was quite shocked to learn that I shouldn't use cream with whey protein powder. In other words, the combination is a total waste of protein powder? Goodbye to quite a few of my low-carb dessert recipes! What are your thoughts on using soy milk? The carbs are low - 4 g. per cup, and some of that is fibre. We did dairy-avoidance for years while my daughter lived at home so I am very comfortable with using soy products.

Anyway, thanks again for all the helpful information. I am going to take another look at my dairy consumption and see what needs to be tweaked.
Hmmm . . . butter in my coffee?

In my humble opinion, these are two of the low carb foods that are particularly "more-ish." I can easily eat 1/2 cup of almonds or maybe 4 ounces of cheese at a time. I suspect that's just a huge whack of calories to have to deal with, especially on a daily basis. I don't want to overgeneralize, but as a 40-something woman who could be more active, and who has maybe 30 pounds to lose, I need to watch calories (somewhat) as well as carbs. Cheese and nuts, if I'm not careful, put me over the top.

Rachel

hi Kay,

Wow, somebody actually read my big, long spiel! ..

I'm glad it's food for thought, but as I said, they're only theories I've had about why dairy foods might be a staller for myself and a few others. The larger percentage of lowcarbers don't seem to have problems, and they've been enjoying cheese and cream -- and losing weight and fat just fine. There's no reason to stop eating a food they enjoy if it's not causing any problems. Remember, you're not really stalled until it's been 4 to 6 weeks with no lbs. AND no inches lost.

Rachel, I hear ya about the "calorie-denseness" of cheese and nuts. Certainly portion control is a big problem. Cream too -- it's way easy to dump too much in the coffee, and who's satisfied with 1/12 of a small rich "sugar-free" cheesecake? Ok, I'm a glutton.

I'm just mystified why, eating 3 oz of cheese, at 330 calories, 27 gm fat and 2 carbs will stall ME out, when eating an 8 oz steak with 1/2 cup broccoli (622 cal., 35 gm fat and 4 gm carbs) won't? I mean, the fat in cheese is the same saturated fat as in beef -- they're both from COW?? And once it's in the bloodstream, a gram of carb is a gram of carb, no matter the source. Everybody's different, I'm just trying to think if there's something else about cheese and high-fat dairy that might be causing the problem.

Please listen to your own body. If dairy isn't causing a problem, continue to enjoy. If you're having troubles, maybe there's something here to think about.

Happy lowcarbing, and remember YMMV.

Doreen

Kay, about the protein shake mix and using cream. Most folks do use cream and have no problem. Where I read this was a sport nutrition site, where athletes require fast absorption of the protein for their muscles post-workout. If there's a possibility that casein might be a problem for you, then yes it would be a waste of the shake. For the average person, it likely slows the absorption, and isn't a huge problem.

If you choose to use soy milk (Ugghh) good luck at finding one that is low in carbs, and palatable. I'm convinced it doesn't exist ... maybe home-made, but who has the time??? Most commercial soy milks are 14 to 20 carbs per cup, or else they are lower carb and taste gross.

Doreen,
(who is slowly cutting back the cream in the coffee, and cutting back the coffee too --- hey, I'm down from 4 mugs to 2, and a 250 ml carton of 18% cream lasts all week ... I confess to my addiction .. )

I can't imagine soy milk in coffee. Apparently one famous expresso chain makes lattes with it. Yuck.

You definitely have to read the labels. Unsweetened, of course is the best choice, but there is one flavoured type in cartons that is relatively low carb. Compare. I am also told that you have to be sure that the label says that is is not made with genetically altered soybeans. What next?

I generally use soy milk in recipes I make, never straight to drink. It's not that noticeable in shakes and baking. Or maybe we are just used to it.

BTW I can't imagine having to live with the smell of bread baking all the time. That would be my downfall.

I was under the impression that Candida sufferers could not eat cheese due to the high mold content.

I have done lo carb in the past (with cheese) and barely lost any weight. Now that I am strictly on a anti-candida I have dropped about 7 pounds in 2 weeks.

LBG

Persons properly diagnosed with systemic Candidiasis should avoid all cheeses during their treatment program. Fresh milk products are avoided because the lactose sugar feeds the yeast. Properly fermented yogurt, with active cultures is sometimes permitted, depending on your doctor.

My sensitivity to yeast, in particular the saccharomyces cerevisiae strain - which is the common yeast used in bread, wine and beer - is more of the allergic variety, and is definitely dose-dependent. Tiny doses I'm fine, large amounts, or repeated exposure, ie if I have it every day .... will trigger intestinal symptoms, headaches and malaise.

I tried 4 weeks completely dairy-free last winter, and it did not make any difference for me. I was completely stalled for months. For me, taking a Tbsp of flax oil daily, plus increasing fat intake in the form of olive oil, and using homemade mayo with lemon juice and canola has made the difference.

Doreen

I too have a theory about dairy products in relation to weight loss\gain.

Cow milk is really supposed to be for turning calves into big, strapping cows and bulls.

So there is quite a possibility that drinking cow's milk will do the same thing to us.

We're the only species that continues to drink milk after we're weaned, and it's not human milk. It comes from an animal.

Something to think about...

Karen

**sigh** I confess to my addiction.

On the other hand, we're also the only species that COOKS its food before eating it too.

Something else to ponder on.

Doreen

That's part of how we got to the top of the food chain...

Killing and cooking other animals and plants!

Hmm. A triple cream unpasturized brie and a nice medium rare haunch of tyranosaurus rex would go just great with this glass of water I'm drinking. !LOL!

Karen

Ever heard of the Arrogant Worms? They just happen to hail from Kingston Ontario ... Anyway, the guys really are funny, and this song I do get a kick out of when I hear it. Your comment on killing and cooking plants brought it to mind. Enjoy!

CARROT JUICE IS MURDER

Listen up brothers and sisters
Come here my desperate tale
I speak of our friends of nature
Trapped in the dirt like a jail

Vegtables live in oppression
Served on out tables each night
This killing of veggies is madness
I say we take up the fight

Salads are only for murderers
Cole Slaw's a fascist regime
Don't think that they don't have feelings
Just cause a radish can't scream

Refrain:
I've heard the screams of the vegtables
Watching theirs skins being peeled
Grated and steamed with no mercy..
How do you think that feels?
Carrot juice constitutes muder..
Greenhouses prisons for slaves
It's time to stop all this gardening
Let's call a spade a spade.

I saw a man eating celery
So I beat him black and blue
If he ever touches a sprout again
I'll bite him clean in two

I'm a political prisoner
Trapped in a windowless cage
Cause I stopped the slaughter of turnips
By killing five men in a rage

I told the judge when he sentenced me
This is my finest hour..
I'd kill those farmers again
Just to save one more cauliflower

Refrain:
I've heard the screams of the vegtables
Watching theirs skins being peeled
Grated and steamed with no mercy..
How do you think that feels?
Carrot juice constitutes muder..
Greenhouses prisons for slaves
It's time to stop all this gardening
Let's call a spade a spade.

How low as people do we dare to stoop
Making our broccilies bleed in the soup?
Untie your beans, Uncage your tomatoes
Let potted plants free, Don't mash that potato!

(Spare the spud, eat a cow instead!)

Refrain:
I've heard the screams of the vegtables
Watching theirs skins being peeled
Grated and steamed with no mercy..
How do you think that feels?
Carrot juice constitutes muder..
Greenhouses prisons for slaves
It's time to stop all this gardening
Let's call a spade a spade.
(Is a spade is a spade is a spade is a spade... )