This proves Atkins is best diet, say scientists : LC Research/Media Forum : Active Low-Carber Forums

#196 ^

Thu, Mar-22-07, 10:21

arc

Senior Member

Posts: 1,186

Plan: Meat Only
Stats: 200/169.6/175 Male 5'11''

BF:
Progress: 122%

Location: Eastern WA

There's more:

Quote:

Trying to get my head round all this!!

Where does the fat we consume go whilst futile cycling takes place. If I drank a pint of double cream, it would all be absorbed into the bloodstream, rather than going down the pan, correct? As I understood it (from Malcolm Kendrick) the newly absorbed fat is mostly transported as triglycerides in chylomicrons direct to fat cells, bypassing the liver.
Now I read that with low insulin levels, the fat/triglycerides cannot enter fat cells.

So, where does my newly absorbed pint of cream spend the next couple of hours? Does it remain in the bloodstream? I must confess to getting more than a liitle confused, Dr Eades.
_________________________

Hi Neil–

The newly absorbed fat is transported in the lymphatic system and dumped through the thoracic duct into a large central vein near the heart. This fat is then in the bloodstream and does go to the cells, but it goes through the liver as well. The triclycerides probably do go into the fat cells, but then comes right back out if insulin is low. As the fat goes through the liver in a low-insulin situation it gets partially broken down into ketone bodies. These ketone bodies are fat that is soluble in blood and are transported to the various tissues that use them. The tissues extract the ketones they need and break them down to the high energy electrons that enter the electron transport chain (the oxidative part of oxidative phosphorylation) that are then used to pump protons across the membrane in one direction, which then get pumped back causing a dissipation of energy without any real work being done. Some ketone bodies are released into the breath, others into the urine, and some into the stool, getting rid of even more calories.

Hope this helps.

Cheers–

MRE

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#197 ^

Thu, Mar-22-07, 10:22

arc

Senior Member

Posts: 1,186

Plan: Meat Only
Stats: 200/169.6/175 Male 5'11''

BF:
Progress: 122%

Location: Eastern WA

And this, too:

Quote:

Another question related to very low carb, if you have the time. You wrote “if, however, one isn’t eating any carbohydrates, the body has to spend energy to convert the protein and trigylceride to glucose”.

I have read that this process is fairly inefficient. Does that mean that your protein requirements will go up if you eat very low carb since more of the protein will be converted to glucose (with some wasted in the process)? It seems that if you don’t eat enough protein, your body will cannibalize muscle to get the glucose it needs.

On the flip side though, if you eat extra protein, will all of the excess protein be converted to glucose and will this raise your insulin levels, causing you to store those extra calories taken in as fat, even with no carbs taken in?

Thanks again for your time.
_______________________________

Hi Ryan–

It takes about a gram of protein to make 0.7 grams of glucose, so if your only source of glucose was protein, you would have to eat 100 grams or protein to make 70 grams of glucose. But you don’t get all of your glucose from protein. Some comes from the glycerol backbone of the triglyceride molecule. When dietary fat or your own stored fat is broken down, the glycerol backbone holding the three fatty acids is released and can be used to make glucose. So, you do need extra protein on a low-carb diet to help keep the blood glucose stable without having to cannibalize your own lean tissue.

The body only converts the protein needed to keep glucose in the normal range, so you don’t have to worry about glucose levels going up and a resultant insulin rise. Doesn’t happen.

Cheers–

MRE

#198 ^

Thu, Mar-22-07, 11:19

JL53563

Senior Member

Posts: 1,209

Plan: The Real Human Diet
Stats: 225/165/180 Male 5'8"

BF:?/?/8.6%
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Location: Wisconsin, USA

Thanks again Ryan. This is awesome stuff.

#199 ^

Thu, Mar-22-07, 13:51

Angeline

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Posts: 3,423

Plan: Atkins (loosely)
Stats: -/-/- Female 60

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Location: Ottawa, Ontario

Quote:

Originally Posted by 33lbs

Hi everyone, I was just browsing and came across this very interesting informative posting. I am also trying to figure out how this diet really works. Does anybody have any comments about this statement from one of our doctors.

He said that we only have a certain amount of fat cells, when you gain weight you dont gain more fat cells you just increase your retention of water within those cells.

Does that make any sense?

Loretta

That does not make intuitive sense. So people who grow to huge proportions like the half ton man are just full of water??

And I've often heard that when you gain weight you gain more weight cells and that's why it's difficult to maintain your weight loss. However that might just be one of those things people say and that no real basis in fact. Maybe the more knowledgable people here can comment. I know I'm certainly not one of them

#200 ^

Thu, Mar-22-07, 14:15

VSL

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Angeline

I've read (wish I could remember where!) that you don't get more fat cells after a certain period of your life (maybe puberty?), just that they grow larger when you gain fat.

No idea if that's true or not.

But, to be honest, I've never seen any evidence either way when it comes to accumulation and loss of fat cells (or whether either really happens) - it all just seems to be who thinks what. Would love some info if anyone has some.

#201 ^

Thu, Mar-22-07, 14:41

Lisa N Lisa N is offline

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Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
Stats: 260/-/145 Female 5' 3"

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Location: Michigan

Quote:

The body only converts the protein needed to keep glucose in the normal range, so you don’t have to worry about glucose levels going up and a resultant insulin rise. Doesn’t happen.

Definitely gonna bookmark this one for the next post I see claiming that 'excess protein' will spike your blood sugar and insulin.

#202 ^

Thu, Mar-22-07, 15:13

dina1957

Registered Member

Posts: 1,854

Plan: My own
Stats: 194/000/150 Female 5'5"

BF:Not sure
Progress: 441%

Location: Bay Area

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa N

Definitely gonna bookmark this one for the next post I see claiming that 'excess protein' will spike your blood sugar and insulin.

Quote:

The body only converts the protein needed to keep glucose in the normal range, so you don’t have to worry about glucose levels going up and a resultant insulin rise. Doesn’t happen.

It does not in a healthy, non-diabetic body.

IN diabetics, liver will not stop gluconeogenesis until:
1) carbs consumed and insulin spiked,
Also, excessive protein can be also stored as ... body fat.

Hence, PP suggesting to calculate your protein requirements based on LBM. Too much protein =weigt gain on any diet.

Quote:

While protein is a structural component of muscles, just adding more protein to the diet does not make your muscles grow. Excess protein in the body is stored as fat.

http://www.rediff.com/getahead/2006/jun/01men.htm

Quote:

Excess protein cannot be stored in our body; instead it is converted into carbohydrates or fat

http://www.sciencetechnologyaction....yid=1&edition=1

Quote:

Protein is very seldom used as fuel, but excess protein also, can be converted to fat and glucose.

http://www.bodyfattest.com/index.ph...id=38&Itemid=49

Quote:

Excess protein consumption
Because the body is unable to store it, excess protein is broken down and converted into sugars or fatty acids. The liver removes nitrogen from the amino acids, so that they can be burned as fuel, and the nitrogen is incorporated into urea, the substance that is excreted by the kidneys. These organs can normally cope with any extra workload but if kidney disease occurs, a decrease in protein will often be prescribed.

Excessive protein intake may also cause the body to lose calcium, which could lead to bone loss in the long-term. However, many protein powders, for instance, come supplemented with various amounts of calcium per serving size so as to counteract the calcium-loss effect.

Some suspect excessive protein intake is linked to several problems:

Overreaction within the immune system
Liver dysfunction due to increased toxic residues
Loss of bone density, frailty of bones is due to calcium and glutamine being leached from bone and muscle tissue to balance increased acid intake from diet (blood pH is maintained at around 7.4). This effect is not present if intake of alkaline minerals (from fruits and vegetables, cereals are acidic as are proteins, fats are neutral) is high. In such cases, protein intake is anabolic to bone.[citation needed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_in_nutrition

Given that one with high degree IR and/or diabetic, even on a low carb diet still has high than normal insulin level, it explains very well why extra protein does both: raises BGs and gets stored as fat.

JMO and JME

#203 ^

Thu, Mar-22-07, 15:28

arc

Senior Member

Posts: 1,186

Plan: Meat Only
Stats: 200/169.6/175 Male 5'11''

BF:
Progress: 122%

Location: Eastern WA

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa N

Definitely gonna bookmark this one for the next post I see claiming that 'excess protein' will spike your blood sugar and insulin.

Note that that was in the context of very low carb. If you are eating enough carbs to bring up your insulin levels, all bets are off.

#204 ^

Thu, Mar-22-07, 15:36

dina1957

Registered Member

Posts: 1,854

Plan: My own
Stats: 194/000/150 Female 5'5"

BF:Not sure
Progress: 441%

Location: Bay Area

Quote:

Originally Posted by arc

Note that that was in the context of very low carb. If you are eating enough carbs to bring up your insulin levels, all bets are off.

What if one's insulin is still higher than normal even on a very low carb diet: like extremely IR, T2 diabetics or when there is insulin producing tumor?

#205 ^

Thu, Mar-22-07, 19:56

Lisa N Lisa N is offline

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Posts: 12,028

Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
Stats: 260/-/145 Female 5' 3"

BF:
Progress: 63%

Location: Michigan

Quote:

Originally Posted by dina1957

What if one's insulin is still higher than normal even on a very low carb diet: like extremely IR, T2 diabetics or when there is insulin producing tumor?

Protein is converted to glucose when glucagon is dominent. It cannot be dominent when insulin is also high; the two cannot both be high at the same time. Insulin turns off gluconeogenesis, glucagon stimulates it. So...if insulin is high, you don't need to worry about protein being converted to glucose.

#206 ^

Thu, Mar-22-07, 20:13

dina1957

Registered Member

Posts: 1,854

Plan: My own
Stats: 194/000/150 Female 5'5"

BF:Not sure
Progress: 441%

Location: Bay Area

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa N

Lisa,
I know what insulin and glucagon balance each other. Unfortunately, IR and T2 diabetics are not sensitive to insulin, so even if the circulating insulin is higher than normal, body is not sensitive to it, and gluconeogenesis continues. Also, high insulin makes weight gain "piece of cake", no pun intended.

Sorry, exessive protein, carbs and fat, everything wil be stored as long as there is IR and/or diabetes.
JMO

#207 ^

Fri, Mar-23-07, 11:03

33lbs

Senior Member

Posts: 234

Plan: Atkins
Stats: 189/182/154 Female 5"4'

BF:
Progress: 20%

Location: Toronto,Canada

Does anybody have any comments about this statement from one of our doctors.

He said that we only have a certain amount of fat cells, when you gain weight you dont gain more fat cells you just increase your retention of water within those cells.

Does that make any sense?

Loretta[/QUOTE]

I thought I would try and limit my liquids to just a normal 8 glasses of liquid per day. 2 with each meal and one inbetween. The scale finally moved after atleast 3 weeks.
Loretta

#208 ^

Fri, Mar-23-07, 20:06

Lisa N Lisa N is offline

Contributing Member

Posts: 12,028

Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
Stats: 260/-/145 Female 5' 3"

BF:
Progress: 63%

Location: Michigan

Quote:

Originally Posted by dina1957

Sorry, exessive protein, carbs and fat, everything wil be stored as long as there is IR and/or diabetes.
JMO

Right...we're all doomed.

#209 ^

Sat, Mar-24-07, 12:56

dina1957

Registered Member

Posts: 1,854

Plan: My own
Stats: 194/000/150 Female 5'5"

BF:Not sure
Progress: 441%

Location: Bay Area

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa N

Right...we're all doomed.

In terms of weight loss, yes, this may explain your struggle to get into normal weight range, and many other diabetics still being overweight and even obese despite religiously following Atkins diet. This adds some frustration to me not being able to control my FBG as well. Otherwise, everything is just peachy.

#210 ^

Sat, Mar-24-07, 14:01

Lisa N Lisa N is offline

Contributing Member

Posts: 12,028

Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
Stats: 260/-/145 Female 5' 3"

BF:
Progress: 63%

Location: Michigan

Dina, I think you would be hard pressed to prove that IR persists even in T2 when low carb is followed correctly and consistently. I believe we had some discussion about this a while back regarding Triglyceride ratios being a good indicator of IR and how those improve dramatically on low carb.

You seem to have this notion that absolutely nothing can improve IR once you have it. I happen to believe otherwise.

Quote:

In terms of weight loss, yes, this may explain your struggle to get into normal weight range

Who's struggling? Can I remind you, Dina, that weight loss was never my primary motivation for picking up low carb but rather blood sugar control? The weight loss was a nice side benefit, but given that I've achieved my primary goal, I'm just not that motivated to do more than maintain at the moment since I'm fairly happy with where I'm at and I have more important priorities in my life right now than seeing how thin I can get just for the sake of it.