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  #151   ^
Old Fri, Feb-24-06, 10:41
PaleoDeano's Avatar
PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
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Posts: 1,582
 
Plan: antivegan,was subzerocarb
Stats: 200/187/175 Male 6' 0"
BF:27%/19%/12%
Progress: 52%
Location: Flyover Zone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlyA
nothing we can choose right now will support the current level of population, NOTHING.
Well put. During the "oil age" (just the last 150 years) the world’s population shot up from around 1 billion to nearly 7 billion. This is THE problem! Cheap, abundant energy used in a hierarchical fashion has doomed us (not the planet really, cuz it will survive us, even if it takes a few hundred million years - depending on how much further we destroy it). Life will win in the end... the only question for us is, will we be smart enough to be included. This is really the theme of this book "Lights Out". I love the way Wiley just blatantly points out that nature will "take us out" if we don't play by her rules. So very true! We have become so species-centric that we can't see the bigger picture (the real picture). The earth isn't flat, and we are not at the center of anything - except our own self extinction.

Last edited by PaleoDeano : Fri, Feb-24-06 at 12:47.
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  #152   ^
Old Fri, Feb-24-06, 14:17
TwilightZ's Avatar
TwilightZ TwilightZ is offline
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Posts: 359
 
Plan: meat and meat by-products
Stats: 270/191/150 Male 5' 11"
BF:
Progress: 66%
Location: TwilightZone (Phila, PA)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlyA
Technology will not save us. Technology harms us. Technology is NOT neutral.


If it had not been for technology, we would not know about our hunter-gatherer ancestors who preceded the agricultural period. If that technology had been available 10,000 years ago, perhaps we would not be in the mess in which we find ourselves today.[/QUOTE]
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  #153   ^
Old Fri, Feb-24-06, 18:02
PaleoDeano's Avatar
PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
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Posts: 1,582
 
Plan: antivegan,was subzerocarb
Stats: 200/187/175 Male 6' 0"
BF:27%/19%/12%
Progress: 52%
Location: Flyover Zone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwilightZ
If it had not been for technology, we would not know about our hunter-gatherer ancestors who preceded the agricultural period. If that technology had been available 10,000 years ago, perhaps we would not be in the mess in which we find ourselves today.
Do you mean "Hindsight Is 20/20"?... or is this just a "Catch 22"? I mean if we didn't have the agricultural period, we wouldn't have the technology to show us just how good the good life really was before the agricultural period? Perhaps we would be better off without the rear-view mirror?

I hope I didn't trip on anyone's circular logic there.

Naked with a sharp stick... now that is some technology we could live with!
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  #154   ^
Old Sat, Feb-25-06, 08:09
TheCaveman's Avatar
TheCaveman TheCaveman is offline
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Posts: 1,429
 
Plan: Angry Paleo
Stats: 375/205/180 Male 6'3"
BF:
Progress: 87%
Location: Sacramento, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwilightZ
If it had not been for technology, we would not know about our hunter-gatherer ancestors who preceded the agricultural period. If that technology had been available 10,000 years ago, perhaps we would not be in the mess in which we find ourselves today.


If it had not been for technology, we would STILL BE our hunter-gatherer ancestors who preceded the agricultural period. If that technology had NOT been available 10,000 years ago, perhaps we would not be in the mess in which we find ourselves today.
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  #155   ^
Old Sun, Feb-26-06, 13:11
PlaneCrazy's Avatar
PlaneCrazy PlaneCrazy is offline
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Posts: 1,146
 
Plan: Modified Paleo Atkins
Stats: 260/260/190 Male 71 inches
BF:Getting/Much/Bette
Progress: 0%
Location: Durham, North Carolina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaleoDeano
...Wiley points out the fact that back before the widespread use of the lightbulb, people slept around 10 hours a night. ...


Unless, of course, they had small babies.

It's amazing how you can actually function on only four or five hours of sleep for weeks and weeks on end. I wonder if the body compensates somehow when you have a baby. (both mother and father)

I'm one of those people who doesn't believe that we'll lose all of the energy and the infrastructure that results in the ten-thousand-mile ceaser salad. (It will be majorly disrupted for a time during the big flu epidemic, but it will resume) Part of my job is to look at the trends in technology and see what the very smartest people are saying is coming and compare that with my own observations. What I see happening is, as always, a double-edged sword. But it's a pretty massively powerful sword.

In the next 10-15 years we will have a much better understanding of how our body functions and how we need to adapt each individual's lifestyle to their own body chemistry. Conservatively, in less than five years from now, you'll be able to buy a machine that fits on a desk, costs less than $2000 and will be able to sequence your genome in under an hour. For those not familiar with genetic sequencing, that is a huge jump in cost (downward), size and speed for genetic sequencing. Why will we care?

Because along with this advance in genetic sequencing is a concurrent advance in our understanding of what that means, of our ability to decode that genetic sequence. By the time my baby graduates from high school, part of a regular doctor's visit will be a scan both of your genetics, but also of the hormone and other chemical levels in your body. This will allow for a regular tweaking of your body profile and help you maximize what your particular body needs.

Twenty-five years from now we'll begin to have cell-sized diagnostic tools that we ingest that tell us how well we're working from the inside out. They will also develop these helpful guys to clean us out of toxins, both artificial and those our body makes as part of the aging process, damaged genetic material and damaged protein strings that lead to other kinds of diseases.

Thirty to fourty years from now, we may not even have to eat because we will be able to use these artificial cells to deliver the proper amount of the right nutrients directly to our cells using basic molecular raw material. You will able to eat whatever you want, and whatever you need is taken from this material, excess is packaged and discarded and gaps are made up for in a regular supliment. There's also the possibility of massively more efficient artificial red blood cells that would make our metabolism so efficient that you could go without breathing for an hour. (snorkling anyone?) Or artificial white blood cells that can take intelligently search and destroy the bad guys, including reprogramming the genetic material of a cell to turn it off (like cancer cells) or reprogram a cell that has gotten old to tell it to keep on reproducing when natural aging would have it become less able to reproduce.

The bottom line is that as we learn more about just how our systems work best, we will learn that not everyone fits into a one-size-fits-all prescription. And we will be able to use technology to fine tune the individual's needs and have better and better ways of delivering these needs and taking care of our physical bodies.

I started out a skeptic, but with a great deal of research, I'm convinced that the odds are quite good that my nine-month-old son will, if he chooses, never have to die. How's that for a question never broached in parenting books? How do you raise a child who will be immortal?

If I'm lucky, and keep good care of myself, I may be able to benefit from these advances as well and make the cut off. (I'm only 42 now) The trick is to not be too unhealthy as the advances occur so that you're not too far gone to benefit.

Eat well, live smart and keep your eyes out, this will be a very interesting next 50 years.

Plane
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  #156   ^
Old Sun, Feb-26-06, 14:36
PaleoDeano's Avatar
PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
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Posts: 1,582
 
Plan: antivegan,was subzerocarb
Stats: 200/187/175 Male 6' 0"
BF:27%/19%/12%
Progress: 52%
Location: Flyover Zone
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On a more positive note... check this out. Although, I think transportation is in for a real change, and hence, communities are going to have to adapt to more local activities for a while. I don't know what will come out of all these changes, but, hopefully we can at least get away from using fossil fuels and destroying this planet (and all the other species on it!)... and get our own population in check!
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  #157   ^
Old Sun, Feb-26-06, 16:15
CharlyA CharlyA is offline
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Posts: 28
 
Plan: wild
Stats: 145/145/145 Male 64"
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Location: WNC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlaneCrazy
Unless, of course, they had small babies.

It's amazing how you can actually function on only four or five hours of sleep for weeks and weeks on end. I wonder if the body compensates somehow when you have a baby. (both mother and father)

I'm one of those people who doesn't believe that we'll lose all of the energy and the infrastructure that results in the ten-thousand-mile ceaser salad. (It will be majorly disrupted for a time during the big flu epidemic, but it will resume) Part of my job is to look at the trends in technology and see what the very smartest people are saying is coming and compare that with my own observations. What I see happening is, as always, a double-edged sword. But it's a pretty massively powerful sword.

In the next 10-15 years we will have a much better understanding of how our body functions and how we need to adapt each individual's lifestyle to their own body chemistry. Conservatively, in less than five years from now, you'll be able to buy a machine that fits on a desk, costs less than $2000 and will be able to sequence your genome in under an hour. For those not familiar with genetic sequencing, that is a huge jump in cost (downward), size and speed for genetic sequencing. Why will we care?

Because along with this advance in genetic sequencing is a concurrent advance in our understanding of what that means, of our ability to decode that genetic sequence. By the time my baby graduates from high school, part of a regular doctor's visit will be a scan both of your genetics, but also of the hormone and other chemical levels in your body. This will allow for a regular tweaking of your body profile and help you maximize what your particular body needs.

Twenty-five years from now we'll begin to have cell-sized diagnostic tools that we ingest that tell us how well we're working from the inside out. They will also develop these helpful guys to clean us out of toxins, both artificial and those our body makes as part of the aging process, damaged genetic material and damaged protein strings that lead to other kinds of diseases.

Thirty to fourty years from now, we may not even have to eat because we will be able to use these artificial cells to deliver the proper amount of the right nutrients directly to our cells using basic molecular raw material. You will able to eat whatever you want, and whatever you need is taken from this material, excess is packaged and discarded and gaps are made up for in a regular supliment. There's also the possibility of massively more efficient artificial red blood cells that would make our metabolism so efficient that you could go without breathing for an hour. (snorkling anyone?) Or artificial white blood cells that can take intelligently search and destroy the bad guys, including reprogramming the genetic material of a cell to turn it off (like cancer cells) or reprogram a cell that has gotten old to tell it to keep on reproducing when natural aging would have it become less able to reproduce.

The bottom line is that as we learn more about just how our systems work best, we will learn that not everyone fits into a one-size-fits-all prescription. And we will be able to use technology to fine tune the individual's needs and have better and better ways of delivering these needs and taking care of our physical bodies.

I started out a skeptic, but with a great deal of research, I'm convinced that the odds are quite good that my nine-month-old son will, if he chooses, never have to die. How's that for a question never broached in parenting books? How do you raise a child who will be immortal?

If I'm lucky, and keep good care of myself, I may be able to benefit from these advances as well and make the cut off. (I'm only 42 now) The trick is to not be too unhealthy as the advances occur so that you're not too far gone to benefit.

Eat well, live smart and keep your eyes out, this will be a very interesting next 50 years.

Plane



Thanks for the real life nightmare of technophilia.

Honestly, what you wrote disgusts me.
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  #158   ^
Old Sun, Feb-26-06, 22:19
PlaneCrazy's Avatar
PlaneCrazy PlaneCrazy is offline
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Posts: 1,146
 
Plan: Modified Paleo Atkins
Stats: 260/260/190 Male 71 inches
BF:Getting/Much/Bette
Progress: 0%
Location: Durham, North Carolina
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I'm sorry it disgusts you, because I'm afraid you're going to be more and more disgusted. I didn't even go into the merging of biological and non-biological intelligence.

The future's coming and there's not much any of us can do about it but adapt.

The bright side is that upcoming nanotechnology is making solar and other clean sources of energy cheaper and much more efficient. It will also help us clean toxic pollutions from the environment. There's good and there's bad, just as every technical innovation in the history of humanity. If we were still living like our ancient paleolithic ancestors our lives would be full of accident and a minor infection was mostly a death sentence. Many more women would die in childbirth, and minor childhood diseases would kill off most children.

Tribal life in not all it's cracked up to be, either. Just some thoughts. Perhaps heresy on this forum, but I don't make the reality, I just live in it.

Plane Crazy
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  #159   ^
Old Sun, Feb-26-06, 22:50
TheCaveman's Avatar
TheCaveman TheCaveman is offline
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Posts: 1,429
 
Plan: Angry Paleo
Stats: 375/205/180 Male 6'3"
BF:
Progress: 87%
Location: Sacramento, CA
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How are we going to do all of this fantastic/horrible stuff without electricity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlaneCrazy
If we were still living like our ancient paleolithic ancestors our lives would be full of accident and a minor infection was mostly a death sentence. Many more women would die in childbirth, and minor childhood diseases would kill off most children.

Tribal life in not all it's cracked up to be, either.


If your Reader's Digest vision of the future wasn't sad enough, you wrap up with an even larger delusional tableau of our past. How is it that Homo flurished for millions of years under the conditions that you paint for us? What do you think an evolutionary biologist would say to your guesswork about the past of our species?

Tribal life is not all it's cracked up to be. It is, however, the only way humans fit within the biological reality of this planet. Saying that people shouldn't live in tribes is like saying that birds shouldn't live in flocks.
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  #160   ^
Old Tue, Feb-28-06, 07:23
PlaneCrazy's Avatar
PlaneCrazy PlaneCrazy is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,146
 
Plan: Modified Paleo Atkins
Stats: 260/260/190 Male 71 inches
BF:Getting/Much/Bette
Progress: 0%
Location: Durham, North Carolina
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Sorry, I was being a little more flippant than I should have. This is a serious subject and perhaps this is not really the place to go into it in detail, but I'll address a few things.

When I tossed off the quote that tribal life is not all that it's cracked up to be, what I meant is that living a paleolithic life was not something I'd like to go back to. There were some good things, but a whole lot of bad as well. One of the most significant characteristics of small, tribal groups is the razor-thin margins you live with.

One bad season and you could have malnutrition. One bad year and you jettison the old, sick, very young and weak either through death, disease or abandonment.

Even what we would consider common and entirely treatable problems could get you into a lot of trouble. Sure, with a better diet there's less of the lifestyle diseases like heart attacks and diabetes, but accidental injury, broken bones, infections, food-born and water-born diseases could all be fatal.

Childbirth and childhood are risky times. So much can go wrong. The strategy of hunting and gathering tribal societies, and even ours as well up until very recently, is to have lots of kids. Eventually, some will survive. You may end up with three or four kids who live to adulthood and reproduction. That's enough for survival of the species, but you may well have had eight kids to begin with. Even with the wonders of modern medicine we still lose mothers and children. I would not have a child now except for these very same wonders. Even just 20 years ago he would not have survived. 100 years ago I would have lost both him and his mother. Now I have a healthy baby boy and a healthy wife.

The world is not a naturally nice place. Hominids were able to survive and thrive not because of some great natural strength or speed, but because of our intelligence. Our intelligence and ability to model and change and adapt to our natural environment seems to have been the driving force for our evolution for quite a while now. It's just that I'm not completely ready to throw out all of the last 10,000 years of that evolution.

Look, I see, and agree with much of what I read and observe about the benefits of eating like we ate while our physical evolution developed. I just don't think I'm willing to chuck it all and live like my ancestors did 10-12,000 years ago. (actually, some of my ancestors were still wandering nomadic hearders some 2500 years ago)

I think where the disagreement in our perspectives may come from is definition of the problem. I believe the problem is that we don't know enough, about how our body really works, about how we can get the most out of what we have both physically and mentally. Others, and I'm not saying this is you, I'll obviously let you speak for yourself, may feel that we have forgotten the real knowledge, how to live "naturally" in this world.

The world is the same, but the approach is different. I think that if we know more, we can use our intelligence to live well, we just don't know enough yet. Others think that we need to forget and return to some time in the past where some think we were all better off. Reality is, that won't be happening.

The genie is out of the bottle, we can either progress towards a future where we understand our environment and our selves better, and strive towards goals of harmonious existence, or we continue on our path of ignorant destruction of our environment and poisoning of our selves. Regardless of what we may want, technology is progressing. Even if someone is somehow able to move back to the savannah, they will not escape for long. It's still a running away.

I will be the first to admit that technology has brough death and destruction along with the benefits. Like all of our human inventions from fire onwards, with power comes responsibility, with every extension of our abilities comes the possiblity of abuse. The answer to this, I believe, is to be vigilant and careful because there is no going back.

My 2-cents. I don't want to hijack this thread, so we can stop here or you can respond but I won't keep up this side-track. Sorry I caused the kerfuffle (sp?)

Plane
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  #161   ^
Old Tue, Feb-28-06, 08:01
Duparc's Avatar
Duparc Duparc is offline
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Plan: self-designed
Stats: 216/189/190 Male tad under 6'
BF:
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Location: Kirriemuir, Scotland
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A lovely and optimistic peace of mind-thought PlaneCrazy and I have little doubt that much of your prediction will manifest itself and possibly within the foreseeable future (for some).

I doubt if survival is due solely or mainly to our intelligence and I do accept that adaptation comes across strongly but, there is a feature that is almost unnoticeable yet is evident in human kind and may not exist in other species; it is the phenomenon of each generation having to re-invent itself. We see this evidence in the young who perpetually reject the values of their parents and earlier generations and it is this regeneration of thought precesses that seems to push humanity towards some yet unknown future.

I readily accept that we may wish to live longer but in that same desire will exist the seeds of destruction.

I enjoyed your postings; quite refreshing to have something to agitate the grey-matter.
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  #162   ^
Old Tue, Feb-28-06, 10:47
PlaneCrazy's Avatar
PlaneCrazy PlaneCrazy is offline
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Posts: 1,146
 
Plan: Modified Paleo Atkins
Stats: 260/260/190 Male 71 inches
BF:Getting/Much/Bette
Progress: 0%
Location: Durham, North Carolina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duparc
the phenomenon of each generation having to re-invent itself. We see this evidence in the young who perpetually reject the values of their parents and earlier generations and it is this regeneration of thought precesses that seems to push humanity towards some yet unknown future.


An interesting point. It seems to be in our nature to not just accept the status quo but to go through a period of questioning and more-or-less rebellion. I doubt you could find an example of any society that stays exactly the same, but some may have more limited resources, or more limited tools with which to make change and so the changes come slowly and are more subtle. These tend to be what we view as more "traditional" societies. Change doesn't happen quickly, and to the outside observer may seems to not happen at all. But, as we gain more powerful tools, we increase our abilities to change our world, and thus our society in greater ways.

But all of this points to our innate human desire to explore the boundaries of our world and our recognition of our own ability to change our world. This, to me, is what really seperates us from almost all other animals, and is the primary driver to our evolution.

Sure, other animals adapt to changing environments, but there are few, if any, who actively bring on that change themselves. For a while now, we've known that humans are not the only tool makers. But, we are the only ones who continually try and make the tools better, even when the ones we have are sufficient. When chimps strip the leaves off of a twig and use it to fish in termite mounds (the classic observation), once they find a way that works, they stick with it. Humans, on the other hand, once they discovered how to purposely chip rocks to create a sharp edge, continuously worked to improve that edge and were able to effectively pass the accumulated knowledge from generation to generation. This striving for a better way to model and change our world, and the ability to communicate the results of our intelligence work is what has allowed us to become more efficient hunters and thus able to support larger populations. These larger populations caused us to develop more effcient means of social organization. These larger populations allowed some to actually specialize in craftsman roles, like tool-maker, which allowed the development to happen even faster. This observation is born our in the fossil record. We find hominid evolution begins to happen at a faster rate once we become tool makers. Once we become proficient at tools, and some think the ability to communicate our knowledge, our evolution begins to exhibit itself in other ways and our physical evolution essentially stops. That's the point that this forum takes as the last step in evolutionary development from a dietary point of view.

The result is also that we can't stop change. If we weren't so darned curious about ways to do and make things better, faster, cheaper, we wouldn't be in the fix we're in, nor would we be human.

Plane
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  #163   ^
Old Tue, Feb-28-06, 12:25
CharlyA CharlyA is offline
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Plan: wild
Stats: 145/145/145 Male 64"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlaneCrazy
If we weren't so darned curious about ways to do and make things better, faster, cheaper, we wouldn't be in the fix we're in, nor would we be human.

Plane


Let me get this straight...

so

To be human, we must believe in "progress"...no...we equal "progress"...we are "progress".

The inevitability of "progress". I don't buy it. That is not true.

It's all smoke and mirrors, civilization shaping our very selves, to believe, like our egos do so well, that without it, we vanish.

With it, we vanish.
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  #164   ^
Old Tue, Feb-28-06, 14:17
PlaneCrazy's Avatar
PlaneCrazy PlaneCrazy is offline
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Posts: 1,146
 
Plan: Modified Paleo Atkins
Stats: 260/260/190 Male 71 inches
BF:Getting/Much/Bette
Progress: 0%
Location: Durham, North Carolina
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Let me state it somewhat differently.

Few people are ever completely content with the way things ARE. (many people claim to have been completely content with the way things USED to be, but things changed) Out of this discontent comes improvements, or at least what are seen as improvements at the time. Further knowledge may prove to us that these "improvements" were actually detrimental, but that is because we now have progressed in our knowledge.

The constant in the human condition is change. To survive in a changing world requires adaption. When we change, we rarely look for worse ways to do and to create. Even if we look to some "classical" or "golden" age, we never go absolutely back to a faithful recreation. Modernity always affects us in some way. To completely deny modernity and change takes such a herculean effort that it is by nature the exception. The norm is for change and "improvements" to happen.

Hopefully that more fully explains my observations.

Plane
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  #165   ^
Old Tue, Feb-28-06, 14:20
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kallyn kallyn is offline
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Posts: 1,998
 
Plan: life without bread
Stats: 150/130/130 Female 5 feet 7 inches
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Location: Pennsylvania
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Civilization/culture is a part of what makes us human. Part of being a member of the human species is a complete and irreversible dependence on culture. It has become one of our adaptations to the world around us...not an adaptation of the physical body perhaps, but of the mind. If you took an average human being and tossed them defenseless into the African savannah, odds are that person would not survive. He or she is completely dependent on culture for his very existence. A human without his tribe (and all that that entails) is like an lemur without its enormous eyes, a bat without its sonar, or a polar bear without its white fur and blubber.

Humans have been a successful species because of our big brains, and those big brains have clearly evolved culture as a mechanism for the survival of our species. To dismiss culture is folly. Without it, the human species as we know it WOULD vanish.

Wherever there are humans, there is culture. And wherever there is culture, there is civilization. Some civilization comes in the form of stick huts. Some comes in the form of cell phones. Trying to ignore civilization and run away back to the wilderness is counterproductive. It will go on without you, and it will probably eventually overtake you anyway. If you want real change in the direction of our human endeavor, try to work from the inside to effect the changes you want to see. Anything else is akin to jamming your fingers in your ears and going "la la la la I can't hear you."
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