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  #1   ^
Old Wed, May-16-18, 20:35
Star123's Avatar
Star123 Star123 is offline
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Plan: Keto/IF/LCarb
Stats: 208/175/142 Female 5' 5"
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Location: Surrey, BC Canada
Lightbulb Fat Adapted vs Ketosis

What is the difference between being fat adapted vs being in ketosis? I looked into it and this is what I found. Fat adapted vs being in ketosis is NOT the same thing, but you can have one and not the other. Being “in ketosis" on a ketogenic diet means that you are breaking down fatty acids at a fast pace, while they're being converted into acetoacetate, acetone, and beta-hydroxybutyrate.

Here is a link from Amy Berger's Blog: http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2016/0...-a-ketard1.html

Have a good night!

Last edited by Star123 : Wed, May-16-18 at 23:32.
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  #2   ^
Old Wed, May-16-18, 21:12
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thud123 thud123 is offline
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Plan: P:E=>1 (Q3-22)
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I'll take a shot from the arm chair here...

Fat adapted would me that your body is able, with out much trouble, use fat as it's main source for fuel. It will also happily use sucrose if you ingest it but rather quickly be able to use fat again if no sugar is available. I think there might be some biologic change that happens over a period of time, perhaps mitochondria change. I don't really know for sure and don't pretend too

A sign of being fat adapted would be the ability to go for extended periods of time with out eating (as long as your body has some fat on it that it can use to support your metabolism) and do this without discomfort or low blood sugar

Ketosis simply means that fat (ingested or your personal store) is being metabolized at some rate - the "level" of ketosis varies. The by products of fat metabolism show up in the breath, blood and urine (ketones for lack of the proper word)

You can be making ketones without being fat adapted, you probably do this every night as you fast in your sleep.

A metabolism that is "fat adapted" perhaps more readily can make ketones in the absence of sugar or if you like glucose.

So there's my uneducated ramble. Mostly this comes from reading the party line around here delusional or not, Probably half delusional and mythic.

These are stories we tell to make us feel better about ourselves and to try to explain and label things that we have very little understanding of.

#ImFatAdapted
#KickedOutOfKetoisis

You can probably find a thousand other takes on the mater here: https://www.google.com/search?q=Fat...chrome&ie=UTF-8

Last edited by thud123 : Wed, May-16-18 at 21:17.
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  #3   ^
Old Wed, May-16-18, 21:55
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Star123 Star123 is offline
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Posts: 47
 
Plan: Keto/IF/LCarb
Stats: 208/175/142 Female 5' 5"
BF:
Progress: 50%
Location: Surrey, BC Canada
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by thud123
I'll take a shot from the arm chair here...

Fat adapted would me that your body is able, with out much trouble, use fat as it's main source for fuel. It will also happily use sucrose if you ingest it but rather quickly be able to use fat again if no sugar is available. I think there might be some biologic change that happens over a period of time, perhaps mitochondria change. I don't really know for sure and don't pretend too

A sign of being fat adapted would be the ability to go for extended periods of time with out eating (as long as your body has some fat on it that it can use to support your metabolism) and do this without discomfort or low blood sugar

Ketosis simply means that fat (ingested or your personal store) is being metabolized at some rate - the "level" of ketosis varies. The by products of fat metabolism show up in the breath, blood and urine (ketones for lack of the proper word)

You can be making ketones without being fat adapted, you probably do this every night as you fast in your sleep.

A metabolism that is "fat adapted" perhaps more readily can make ketones in the absence of sugar or if you like glucose.

So there's my uneducated ramble. Mostly this comes from reading the party line around here delusional or not, Probably half delusional and mythic.

These are stories we tell to make us feel better about ourselves and to try to explain and label things that we have very little understanding of.

#ImFatAdapted
#KickedOutOfKetoisis

You can probably find a thousand other takes on the mater here: https://www.google.com/search?q=Fat...chrome&ie=UTF-8


Hi thud123 ~ I found your post quite interesting to read, as I'm just learning about this topic. I'm sure many others will be interested in knowing the difference between being fat adapted verses being in a ketosis state. This is why I started this thread.

Will be doing more research on this topic. So interesting!

Thanks!

Last edited by Star123 : Wed, May-16-18 at 22:26.
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  #4   ^
Old Wed, May-16-18, 22:26
Star123's Avatar
Star123 Star123 is offline
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Posts: 47
 
Plan: Keto/IF/LCarb
Stats: 208/175/142 Female 5' 5"
BF:
Progress: 50%
Location: Surrey, BC Canada
Lightbulb

Another thing that I wanted to add to this thread is that the bodies we were given, or born with are so amazing! Everyone of us are unique in our own way, and have a different metabolism that functions at a different rate. Those of us who can't seem to stay on a diet, let alone lose weight on a "diet." End up yo-yo dieting. Jumping from one diet to the next. This is indeed a dilemma!

We all know that dieting doesn't work! Time and time again we fall-off-the-wagon on fad diets that just do not work, nor do they last. This is one of the reasons we as americans can't seem to stay slim. That is why there is an obesity epidemic in our country. The sad thing is that our children, who are the next generation are becoming obese faster then most adults who gained the weight in their adult years.

I believe our metobolisms are very difference from those with a normal weight. They seem to be able to eat anything and not gain an ounce. But, their metabolisms are different then ours. We, on the other hand need to follow a low carb, or ketogenic diet that gives us the results we so desire.

Just wanted to point that out there for discussion if anyone is interested, but still want to keep the "topic" of what is being fat adapted vs being in ketosis as the general focus on this thread.

Thanks!

Last edited by Star123 : Wed, May-16-18 at 23:37.
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  #5   ^
Old Wed, May-16-18, 22:49
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Star123 Star123 is offline
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Posts: 47
 
Plan: Keto/IF/LCarb
Stats: 208/175/142 Female 5' 5"
BF:
Progress: 50%
Location: Surrey, BC Canada
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Oh thud123 ~ I'm trying to figure out what the "party line" is that you mentioned ealier. Is that another thread that you visit?

Thanks!

Last edited by Star123 : Wed, May-16-18 at 23:58.
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  #6   ^
Old Thu, May-17-18, 03:22
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JEY100 JEY100 is online now
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Plan: P:E/DDF
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Amy Berger's four great articles on the topic are my go-tos on the topic also, but there is some new information coming to light with the Virta studies. Their patients continue to test ketones long term and the one year study has been released.

The basic article by Phinney and Volek to define all these terms including Keto-Adaptation and Fat-Adaptation (count me as one who has conflated these terms until this article was published last month) is excellent.

Ketones and Nutritional Ketosis: Basic Terms and Concepts
https://blog.virtahealth.com/ketone-ketosis-basics/

Also, Keto-Adaptation
https://blog.virtahealth.com/keto-adapted/

And what does all this mean for Weight Loss?..the reason most of us even care about these terms
https://blog.virtahealth.com/weight...ketogenic-diet/

Nutritional Ketosis and Weight Loss

Quote:
What This Means for Weight Loss and Weight Maintenance on a Ketogenic Diet

In summary, being in nutritional ketosis will accelerate the rate at which the body burns fat, and this is a fundamental key to the short- and long-term benefits of a ketogenic diet. If the extra fat that is burned is compensated by an increase in dietary fat, then no body fat loss will occur (but there still will be other benefits).

However, most people carrying excess fat tissue who achieve nutritional ketosis by eating natural low-carbohydrate foods initially feel more satiated, allowing them to eat less fat than they burn, which results in net fat loss. But eventually, even when one is in sustained nutritional ketosis, our natural instincts prompt us to increase fat intake to meet our daily energy needs resulting in a stable weight and body composition.

Bottom line: While there might be a ‘metabolic advantage’ to a ketogenic diet over one containing a fair amount of carbohydrate, on average the difference is small. This does not explain why some people seem to lose weight relatively easily when carbs are restricted, which may be due to inter-individual variation. However the common observation of significant and sustained weight loss over months and years (Hallberg et al, 2018) is more likely a result of the benefits of nutritional ketosis on fuel flow, appetite, and cravings; as well as the reduced inflammation that is triggered by modest levels of beta-hydroxybutyrate. Clearly humans following a long-term ketogenic diet can eventually remain weight stable by adjusting fat intake to balance daily fat use for fuel. For those wishing to lose weight additional rather than remain weight stable, one’s goal should be to reduce dietary fat intake down to the margin of satiety (just enough, but not too much) and avoid or limit non-satiating energy sources such as alcohol.


Look around the Virta FAQs and other blog posts...much good info on nutritional ketosis, keto-adaptation, etc. Mentioned in Dr Phinney's talk at Breckinridge, a number of successful patients had ketone levels under .5 by the one year mark. It may be the longer one is Keto-adapted the level of ketones does not need to be as high? This is new, still being studied...but saw a graph of results so far somewhere. . Think it was the Breckinridge talk, but Marty Kendall also included it in his thoughts on the Lower BhB levels at one year. https://optimisingnutrition.com/201...ptimal-ketosis/

Last edited by JEY100 : Thu, May-17-18 at 04:05.
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  #7   ^
Old Thu, May-17-18, 04:52
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teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
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I just responded in my journal, I guess it makes sense to throw this into the general discussion here.


Fat adapted vs being in ketosis...

Okay, I'll bring Arctic mammals into this. If you look at seals and other sea mammals in the far north, these are very fat adapted animals. Some whales will basically be fasted for months every year, due to the changing seasons. These animals will get the vast majority of their energy from body fat.

Due to a large metabolism vs. brain size, these animals can pretty much run their brains strictly on glucose, even when fasting, sourcing the glucose solely from the glycerol contained in their on triglyceride stores, all this without resorting to ketosis. Our much larger relative brain metabolism means we can't do this, so we much more readily enter ketosis. But ketones aren't a prerequisite for fat adaptation as such.

Phinney and Volek have looked at ketoadaptation. Take some cyclists, put them on a ketogenic diet, at first they're going to suck because their bodies aren't used to the diet, after some weeks performance will recover. This is probably a case of combined fat and ketoadaptation--most calories will come from fat, if there's not enough glucose coming in to feed the brain, some portion of brain metabolism will come from ketones.

Muscle and heart can get their energy from mitochondria primarily through oxidation of fat or glucose. Adaptation to fat can spare both glucose and ketones for brain and other tissue that needs it more. So you've got this thing where, if muscle becomes fat adapted and spares glucose, becoming fat adapted could actually decrease ketone production.

So I'd say--while what Phinney and Volek advocate is both keto adaptation and fat adaptation, you do have to separate the two, and there's no reason you couldn't be fat adapted without being very ketotic. Could you be keto adapted without being fat adapted? Probably not in the usual course of events. Old fasting studies showed ketone production at maximum on day three of a fast. Blood ketones didn't reach a steady state maximum until day ten or so, the explanation was that early in the fast, muscle used ketones for energy. There's an adaptation away from ketone use by muscle--further into a fast, or further into adaptation to a ketogenic diet, muscle starts converting the acetoacetate that's a more direct fuel source for mitochondria into beta-hydroxybutyrate. That takes an extra enzyme to metabolize, this is something that can be upregulated in the brain, and the whole process allows those ketones to be spared for the brain.

The Nad+/Nadh ratio affects the tendency in muscle to convert acetoacetate into beta-hydroxybutyrate, and fatty acid oxidation affects this ratio--when muscle is getting lots of energy from fat, the more readily metabolized acetoacetate is pushed towards beta-hydroxybutyrate. So part of ketoadaptation is actually a consequence of fat adaptation that keeps the ketones from being wasted. But again, this also spares glucose.

Some made up numbers as an illustration. Somebody eats 70 grams of carb a day, otherwise a very high fat diet. At first they are not fat adapted--they may enter ketosis more readily, because their body isn't sparing that glucose yet. As they become more fat adapted, ketones may actually decrease.

Or they eat 20 grams a day. How do things go? Suppose they're in ketosis at first. What happens later on, if they keep eating exactly the same way? Okay, they become fat adapted. Less wasting of glucose and ketones. Do ketones go up or down? I think either direction makes sense, a person able to produce enough glucose for their brain, once it's not being wasted by other organs, may reduce ketone production. On the other hand--like a starving person, another person's ketones might go up with time, if the ketones are spared for the brain and they're really not capable of coming up with enough glucose, even with fat adaptation. This is more the situation you hope for if you're doing a high ratio 3:1 or 4:1 etc. therapeutic diet for epilepsy or cancer, there are some anecdotes for bipolar at a higher ratio, I'm one of them.

Sometimes people will say that measured ketones go down because they're being more "efficiently" used for energy. This is doubly untrue, first, entry of ketones into various cells depends on there being a chemical gradient, a significant difference in concentration between the exterior and the interior of the cell. The second problem is what I've outlined above, keto-adaptation doesn't involve increased use of ketones across the whole body, it involves a sparing of ketones just about everywhere but the brain.
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  #8   ^
Old Thu, May-17-18, 05:30
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thud123 thud123 is offline
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Plan: P:E=>1 (Q3-22)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Star123
Oh thud123 ~ I'm trying to figure out what the "party line" is that you mentioned ealier. Is that another thread that you visit?

Thanks!

Stick around and you'll find out. Basically it's a changing target regurgitating the current meme of "low carb" dogma. Same as Vegan, Same as Paleo, Same as Carnivore, Same as... you name it Be dubious of what you think you know to be absolutely true.

Last edited by thud123 : Thu, May-17-18 at 05:38.
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  #9   ^
Old Thu, May-17-18, 06:04
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Plan: VLC, mostly meat
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If all we know is how much ketones in urine, and if all we understand from this is the more ketones in urine -> the winnar!, and if we know how to consistently produce ketones in urine - eating low-carb for example - then it's a win for fat adaptation as well, because low-carb is also how we achieve that. Ima say the more widely known this simple logic becomes, the more people benefit from it, rather than not.

If instead of low-carb we go ketone drinks, it's still a win cuz this has the potential to lead us eventually to low-carb by simple analysis of ketone drinks. Hey, ketone drinks do this, low-carb does the same thing, why not just do low-carb. Also, ketone drinks have the ability to accelerate fat adaptation by the same mechanisms low-carb does it, precisely because ketone drinks activate the same mechanisms, specifically insulin receptors in the liver primarily.
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  #10   ^
Old Thu, May-17-18, 07:44
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s93uv3h s93uv3h is offline
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Plan: Atkins & IF / TRE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
The basic article by Phinney and Volek to define all these terms including Keto-Adaptation and Fat-Adaptation (count me as one who has conflated these terms until this article was published last month) is excellent.

Ketones and Nutritional Ketosis: Basic Terms and Concepts
https://blog.virtahealth.com/ketone-ketosis-basics/
They surely don't like IF.

Starvation Ketosis

During total fasting when there is complete absence of any caloric intake for several days, the resulting increase in ketones is referred to as starvation ketosis. The absence of any dietary carbohydrate and protein over a week or more raises ketone concentrations to between 5 and 10 mmol/L, significantly higher than nutritional ketosis, but lower than concentrations in keto-acidosis. Starvation ketosis is an important physiologic process that evolved millions of years ago, enabling humans to survive for prolonged periods on body fat when food was not available.4 Obviously starvation ketosis is not sustainable long term, nor is it advisable to intentionally induce it for shorter periods (i.e., intermittent fasting) because of essential nutrient deprivation, lean tissue loss, and other potentially dangerous side effects.
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  #11   ^
Old Thu, May-17-18, 08:35
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teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
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They sort of have a point there with the essential nutrients. Not everybody has to be consistently in ketosis all the time to get the results they want. I find a problem I have, though, is that the usual increase in appetite that I experience coming out of a fast makes me feel a bit worse. We're not talking refeed syndrome zone here, just a shorter fast. I do get a bit of a buzz/mood lift during the fast itself, but making up the nutrient/protein gap during the refeed makes me feel a bit worse, maybe because of a decrease in ketosis. I'm not talking a 16 hour fast, my usual feeding pattern is pretty close to that, with two meals, breakfast at the beginning of the feeding period, supper at the end. This is more of a 24 hour fast thing.
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  #12   ^
Old Thu, May-17-18, 10:47
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Plan: VLC, mostly meat
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Just a heads up, I just posted an updated "Paradigm" post on my blog. It deals with ketones signaling primarily so it should be pertinent here, at least for reference. Not really pushing anything, just pointing out my point of view about ketones and anything related.
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  #13   ^
Old Thu, May-17-18, 13:11
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Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is online now
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Plan: atkins, carnivore 2023
Stats: 200/211/163 Female 5'8"
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Star--Im glad you asked...... I thought I knew, then saw how others used the terms, then got confused. Now back to what I originally thought.
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  #14   ^
Old Fri, May-18-18, 22:49
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Star123 Star123 is offline
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Plan: Keto/IF/LCarb
Stats: 208/175/142 Female 5' 5"
BF:
Progress: 50%
Location: Surrey, BC Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
Star--Im glad you asked...... I thought I knew, then saw how others used the terms, then got confused. Now back to what I originally thought.


That's okay. Your welcome!
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