I think that one thing that you are not discussing here is that when you lessen your calories, your body adjusts to maintaining at that level. Therefore, everytime you start a new diet, you must go lower on the calories. This is why really obese people don't really eat more than normal people--their bodies are so efficient at using less calories that they can maintain their weight on less. But when they eat just a little more, they become heavier.

The thing I like about lc is that you can eat many more calories and still lose weight. You don't hit that starvation mode where your body needs less and less to maintain.

As far as I can see, any diet that promotes less than 1500-1800 calories is asking for failure.

It probably doesn't help that most fat people are more prone to undereat and not-eat and then rebound from that. Being fat creates actual fear. Creates a psychology tied to the you-eat-too-much cultural prejudice like it's a burning stake, and it's all so emotionally geared that reason doesn't touch it.

Maybe this doesn't affect everyone this way but it certainly did me, still does. Gradually the body adapts to more and more starvation-level while every time the body finally "rebounds" and demands you eat after awhile of that--often energy-food of sugar/carbs is the result--even more weight is gained.

My 13 year old tells me I'm anorexic. At 380#. Because she lives with me and she knows that I can simply go without eating for a day or two without it being that huge a thing to me; that I can undereat seriously; she knows because she doesn't want to cook, which means her eating is tied to mine, so she's aware of what I'm eating and how much. She apparently figured out that "refusing to eat when you should" -- starving oneself to various degrees -- does not require the person look emaciated; it's still anorexia, just to a much lesser extreme/degree. Lowcarb probably did more for me just by getting me to EAT more regularly and substantially, than anything else.

I do own GCBC, but it has been over a year since I read it. (Had to stop re-reading b/c the ranting was getting on dh's nerves...) What I got out of that was largely that, yes, lc is right, you cannot get fat eating meat, no matter what.

So my point is that everyone has varying degrees of "unlucky" and react to carbs by a driving NEED to eat more and more, or slightly less "more, but most people react this way to some degree or another. (of course, there are exceptions, the eternally skinny sister, etc...) but basically, everyone following the SAD (or even very extreme lf diets, etc...) has to white knuckle it "somewhat" in order to not overeat and gain slowly as they age, and most people struggle with this, forever. They may think it is normal, and they need to just eat less, etc, but they have this constant fight to various degrees, that is part of life apparently. (if you eat carbage) Everyone I know except a very few exceptions has to watch themselves to a certain degree (which to them means, not eat too many calories) to maintain their relatively fit shape, it is a constant thing.

So I think that while the social issues are much more distressing for an obese person, they are not the only ones experiencing a drive to overeat, they just have it worse, they are (perhaps) more unlucky and, or damaged their metabolism by not fighting as hard as someone who maintains a normal weight. I am sure it does get harder and harder the more you fat you accumulate and the worse your insulin response becomes. I am not saying the obese are lazy, etc, I am saying this is an almost universal struggle and some people are more motivated to fight before it becomes near impossible to do so. You are right, we are mammals, but we obviously DO NOT self regulate, like, at all, unless we eat like we would "in the wild" which means different things to different people, but to me means, lots of meat, not a lot else, maybe a little vegetation. A soon as we are given access to a huge supply of carbs, we dive in face first, and it is just a matter of time and luck (and I still believe a certain degree of willpower in most cases) to see who gains fastest.

We may have to wait an awfully long time to get real answers on how to solve a damaged metabolism and lose 200 plus lbs for anyone, but it is pretty clear how to prevent to problem in the first place, IF you find out before it's too late. I find the most frustrating thing currently that the information IS available, it's just refuted by authority and it takes a pretty free thinker to "buy in" essentially. There was a very funny thread a while back (I thought, apparently others not so much) about how lc is basically a religion, and I feel like that most of the time. The truth is out there, we've found it, but can't quite proselytize fast enough to help everyone.

I keep pushing PPLP, (and other books, I'm ordering FatHead dvd's for christmas gifts...) toward my Mom, but she just isn't interested, she's T2 diabetic (though it has apparently "gone away" since she cut out sugar, just sugar, not actually eating vlc or anything approaching it) and has an enormous assortment of health problems, is almost immobile, and still refuses to accept that we are not meant to eat grains, etc... She orders pizza not infrequently, etc... However, she does not consume high levels of calories (I should say, higher than required for her height probably, but not an OUTRAGEOUS level at all) and she still has been unable to lose weight past a certain point. What she is doing is not working, but to try something new, and DIFFICULT (b/c lets call it like it is, giving up carbs is HARD for a while until you adapt) is not going to happen.

I don't even know what she weighs, but at 5 ft or so I would estimate over 300 lbs, and this has been the case for at least the past 2 decades, before that I think she was probably just overweight-obese, but wouldn't/couldn't stop eating harmful things to her health before the situation became so bad. I think this colors my view of the super obese greatly b/c she absolutely didn't gorge herself into this state, she just slowly got fatter and fatter (well, not that slowly) eating a perhaps slightly above average number of calories heavy on the starches. thats it. But why not DO SOMETHING?! (you see where that came from now...) I know other people have of course "Done something" in the process and had the "somethings" fail, but I know from experience that some obviously do not. So I have a hard/impossible time accepting that all the super obese just got there b/c they were so unlucky that nothing worked, they couldn't help it. (or were stricken with an insanely more difficult to fight drive to eat)

I should also mention that my mom did Atkins in the 70's, not following the book obviously (that would have been HARD, and not been a quick fix) and explained that she did great and lost a ton of weight on a 30 day diet where you just eat eggs, as many as you want, and nothing else. So then what? I have a pretty "damaged" relationship with this woman more than a little colored by my view of her lack of interest/effort in making healthy choices (not only for herself, but for my siblings and I as well) and not excused by a lack of knowledge or ability to find things out. (She is a PhD in organic chemistry, homeschooled us, very smart lady otherwise) So, what percentage of people share this attitude/behavior that essentially does make their situation pretty hard to be compassionate about?

I have found some (compassion) as I grow older and have moved far away from her, I see that her life is pretty miserable, and she has certainly harmed herself much more than my siblings and that she certainly must have felt overwhelmed by the situation, but I still don't understand how a person can make the choice to NOT make every possible effort to avoid living like that. How can one "give up"? Maybe watching my mom is what made me take a hold of myself and fight the situation when I did, I guess I'll never know how I would have reacted if it wasn't quite so urgent to NOT be like my mom.

A bit OT, I have been reading a lot lately about zc/carnivore, and it totally makes sense that if we eat like lean lions we will be lean too, though the process of giving up food as a sort of cultural thing and just eating what we need (psychologically hard, I don't think it would be physically hard once you adapt) would be exceptionally difficult for me. I wish though, that different lc options, including this one, were WIDELY known about from a young age so that people might have the chance at preventing so much pain. (again though, just b/c they have the info, I'm not sure they would use it in many cases)

I was thinking about how when I was most successful and reached within 30 pounds of goal I was on a dairy free stage (b/c of the new baby) and so happily busy running around doing things I was essentially doing IF and eating a huge very rare steak (with butter) or burger either once or twice a day, with only a couple of bites of salad, b/c I thought I "should". I was not happy about getting into that way of eating at ALL, it pissed me off enormously that all kinds of fruit and veggies that I liked were giving my baby rashes, and worst of all, CHEESE (!), but once I gave all that stuff up, I just felt amazing. I think we need detox centers (like methadone clinics) where people can go to just be fed meat and a little salad, if they want it. And teach all kinds of hobbies and other interests. Forget the exercise, forget "don't eat too much" just replace what you've been eating with lion food, and see how you feel. Maybe add things like broccoli back in when you are happy with your progress. But, yes, I guess that is a disney dream. (would we start having "interventions" about food? "put the cookie down, go to atkins land clinic for a month...")

I do think though, that most people realize they have a problem with food (addiction or other name) they just don't know how to effectively make it easier to deal with.

Bexicon, I think you've just channeled Edina Monsoon.

From Absolutely Fabulous, episode "Poor" -

Yes! This is what I have wanted to say but have been to ineloquent, lazy, slow typer, to do it.

I agree that some got a worse deal than others...but for the most part, we all struggle with our weight. And as much as I may not know the difficulties of the obese, perhaps some do not know the sheer willpower and determination that it also takes to stay thin all of one's life.

Perhaps the biggest problem is just waiting too long for action or acting and then doing the very wrong thing (LFHC) and then getting really fat. That said, I really don't know anyone who was just fat (not obese) and did not lose weight with eating less. And conversely, I don't know anyone who got GOT fat (not stayed fat) by eating rice crackers and fruit. There is 100% a big level of personal accountability.

Conversely, the obese person on the cruise could have seen a thin person going to the buffet for another round, or ordering yet ANOTHER dessert at dinner and think they have it so easy amd they're meant to be thin while they are meant to be fat. But they don't know that 49 days out of 50 that person is going to the gym, eating low calories, or low carb, and trying very very hard to maintain an appropriate weight.

Actually, someone I was sitting with on the cruise remarked exactly that. How I was so LUCKY that I could eat whatever I wanted and stay thin (went Very Off Plan for two days- was awesome). She doesn't know that I have controlled my eating since I was 13 and have been exercising on and off since I was 22. She doesn't know that I spend hours on forums trying to find the best information on the healthiest ways of eating and the best forms of exercising, or that I subscribe to more Science and Fitness blogs on Google Reader than I know what to do with. Perhaps it is easier for me than some, but I can guarantee you I am not fat because I CHOSE to not be and I still stand by the fact that for most it is a CHOICE.

Thoughtful essay, Bekkers!

yey! I was worried it was getting incoherent or offensive... typed on and off all morning while chasing the kiddos, when I posted it was one huge clump of text!

A friend of mine on the forum once said something like, "I wish someone had just told me [all that time ago], maybe other people can eat these things, but you can't. If you do, YOU will get fat and miserable, even though people around you eat the same things and are not." People just don't know WHAT is making them fat and miserable. They think, "Well, I did have a chicken and rice burrito from the lunch truck last wednesday. And I did have some birthday cake two weeks ago." They don't realize that they're going to go home and eat pasta and potatoes and corn that is the real (and constant) problem. (Two veggies and a whole-grain!) Not a problem for everyone. A problem for them.

In order to fix anything, from your car to your life, you have to have some clue what the problem is. Most people until they run into some variant related to lowcarb, honest to God just do. not. know. Most everything they do to desperately try and fix it makes it worse. So they vary between desperation that is worsening things, and angry frustrated fine-then-why-bother reaction that is also worsening things.

Oops, wouldn't be the first time