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  #46   ^
Old Thu, Jul-17-08, 07:48
Aeon's Avatar
Aeon Aeon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LessLiz
Ya know, I'm feeling sorry for Jane Brody today. With the study published yesterday she lost about 95% of what harps on about.


No sympathy here for Jane Brody, nor for the Washington Post's Sally Squires.

When people have dedicated entire careers to misinforming the public -- after having been put on notice for years by folks more knowledgeable than themselves -- they are not deserving of solace. (Anyway, they will continue to insist that they are right despite all the evidence to the contrary.)
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  #47   ^
Old Thu, Jul-17-08, 08:07
ruthla ruthla is offline
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A couple of thoughts:

1) Even when they interpret this study to mean "all diets work equally well", it's still casting doubt on the universal low-fat guidelines

2) OK, so the groups lost 10 lbs or so on average. Did that mean any of them dropped from "obese" into "overweight" or from "overweight" into "normal weight"? I've lost 20 lbs in the past year, and after losing only 15 of them most of my obesity-related health problems were gone. If health is improved, most people lost weight, and what they lost they kept off, who cares if the results were modest?
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  #48   ^
Old Thu, Jul-17-08, 08:07
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Wifezilla Wifezilla is offline
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Bwaa haa haa!

Jane Brody is probably holding a statin bottle in her hand and sobbing as we speak.
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  #49   ^
Old Thu, Jul-17-08, 08:07
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pamlynn pamlynn is offline
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I saw Katie Curic's interview with some Dr.(?) and was thrilled about their findings and the fact that it was on a national TV station. Maybe this will help people to take a more serious look at Low Carbing and those who have done it before, will try it again. Awesome!

I told my Doc just today that I was low carbing and she was happy about it since she noticed my weight loss.
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  #50   ^
Old Thu, Jul-17-08, 08:11
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LessLiz LessLiz is offline
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Zilla, I picture her with a statin bottle in one hand and a blank computer screen staring her in the face as she tries to figure out what to write *now*!
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  #51   ^
Old Thu, Jul-17-08, 08:11
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ReginaW ReginaW is offline
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Default Newsweek: The Never-Ending Diet Wars

The Never-Ending Diet Wars
A new study reports that the Atkins diet can be just as healthy as a low-fat diet. But don't start buying bacon yet. This research has some serious flaws.

Dean Ornish M.D.
Newsweek Web Exclusive

A new study comparing the Atkins diet, a Mediterranean diet and a low-fat diet published on July 17 inThe New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM), is likely to inspire headlines saying that the Atkins diet is better for your waistline and your health than a low-fat diet.

However, as a lead investigator on numerous peer-reviewed studies of low-fat diets, and the author of several books about the benefits of healthy low-fat lifestyles, I believe this study is extremely flawed. Here's why:

The NEJM study, which was funded in part by the Atkins Foundation, reported that participants who ate a low-carb (Atkins) or Mediterranean diet (restricted calorie, moderate fat intake) for two years lost more weight, and saw more of an improvement in their glucose and cholesterol levels, than those who were on a low-fat, restricted calorie diet. However, participants in the study who were on the "low-fat" diet decreased their total fat intake from 31.4 percent to 30.0 percent, hardly at all.

I'm also very skeptical of the quality of data in this study. For example, the investigators reported that those on the "low-fat" diet consumed 200 fewer calories per day—or 10,000 fewer calories per year—than those on the Mediterranean diet, yet people lost more weight on the Mediterranean diet. That's physiologically impossible.

In addition, in the "Atkins diet" that was tested, "the participants were counseled to choose vegetarian sources of fat and protein and to avoid trans fat." A vegetarian Atkins diet? Most people associate an Atkins diet with bacon, butter and brie, not a plant-based diet like the one I recommend.

Then there's the question of what constitutes a "low-fat" diet. The one used in the NEJM study was not very low in fat. It was based on the American Heart Association (AHA) guidelines, which I have long criticized as not being enough of a change in diet to show much benefit. In earlier studies, as in this one, the AHA diet did not cause much of a reduction in either blood cholesterol levels, weight or blood sugar, so it's not surprising that the new NEJM study reported that the Atkins and Mediterranean diets were more successful at reducing these levels. In the Womens Health Initiative study, the AHA diet didn't do much to prevent heart disease, colon cancer or breast cancer, either.

My colleagues and I at the nonprofit Preventive Medicine Research Institute and the University of California, San Francisco, have studied for more than three decades the effects of diets much lower in fat (10 percent) than the one used in NEJM study as well as lower in refined carbohydrates and higher in fruits, vegetables, whole grains, legumes and soy products.

We reported in a randomized, controlled clinical trial published in the Journal of the American Medical Association a 24-pound weight loss after one year and 13-pound average weight loss after five years in a group of men and women, much more than the 9.7 to 10.3 pounds lost in the new NEJM study. These findings were replicated in larger demonstration projects as well.

Using state-of-the-art measures, in a series of randomized controlled trials, we found that this low-fat diet (plus moderate exercise and stress management techniques) caused reversal of coronary heart disease after only one month, even more reversal after one year, and still more improvement after five years. We also found that it could stop or even reverse the progression of early prostate cancer. Our latest study, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, showed that these diet and lifestyle changes caused beneficial changes in gene expression in over 500 genes in just three months-"turning on" disease-preventing genes and "turning off" genes that promote heart disease, cancer, and other illnesses. This is why Medicare is now covering intensive lifestyle programs such as the one I recommend.

However, studies of people who go on an Atkins diet showed that their heart disease actually worsens when heart disease was actually measured rather than just risk factors.

In other words, improved health, not just weight, is important.

The current NEJM study statement that the low-carbohydrate Atkins diet has more favorable effects on HDL-cholesterol levels is based on the observation that HDL-cholesterol levels are higher on an Atkins diet than on a low-fat diet. Remember, HDL is just a risk factor for heart disease. We measured the effects of a healthy low-fat diet on actual disease states, not just on risk factors.

As I have written about before, there is tremendous confusion about what HDL does among both health professionals, as well as in the general public. There is often a simplistic view that HDL is good, so that anything that raises HDL is good for you, and anything that lowers it is bad for you. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Your body makes HDL to remove excessive cholesterol from your blood and tissues, a process known as "reverse cholesterol transport." Think of HDL as the garbage trucks of your body. HDL transports cholesterol back to your liver where it is metabolized and removed from your body. Your body's ability to make more garbage trucks (i.e., raise your HDL) is, in part, genetically determined. Some people can make more garbage trucks than others.

Most Americans eat a diet that's relatively high in saturated fat and cholesterol—i.e., a lot of "garbage." Those people who have a lot of garbage trucks—in other words, who have high HDL levels—are more efficient at getting rid of extra fat and cholesterol in their diet. As a result, they have a lower risk of a heart attack or stroke than those who eat a high-fat, high-cholesterol diet who have lower HDL levels. However, the relationship of HDL to risk of heart disease and stroke assumes that people are not changing their diet.

Not everything that raises HDL is good for you. For example, if you increase the amount of fat and cholesterol in your diet (e.g., an Atkins diet), you may increase your HDL because your body is trying to get rid of the extra "garbage" (fat and cholesterol) by increasing the number of available garbage trucks (HDL) if you are genetically able to do so. Eating a stick of butter will raise HDL in those who are able to do so, but that does not mean that butter is good for your heart. It isn't.

Not everything that lowers HDL is bad for you. If you change from a high-fat, high-cholesterol diet to a healthy low-fat, low-cholesterol diet, your HDL levels may stay the same or even decrease because there is less need for it. When you have less garbage, you need fewer garbage trucks to remove it, so your body may make less HDL. Thus, a reduction in HDL on a low-fat diet is not harmful.

We know this is true because instead of just measuring risk factors like HDL, we measured what actually happens to the progression of coronary heart disease in people who went on diets that were very low in "garbage"—i.e., very low in cholesterol, saturated fat, total fat and refined carbohydrates and high in fruits, vegetables, whole grains, legumes and soy products.

Their HDL levels came down by 9 percent after one year, but their LDL ("bad") cholesterol levels came down even more, by an average of 40 percent. None of these patients was taking cholesterol-lowering drugs. As mentioned above, even though their HDL levels decreased, these patients showed reversal of their heart disease using state-of-the-art measures.

A low HDL in the context of a healthy low-fat diet has a very different prognostic significance than a low HDL in someone eating a high-fat, high-cholesterol diet. People living in countries such as Asia that consume a low-fat diet have low HDL levels yet among the lowest rates of heart disease in the world.

It's time to call a truce in the diet wars. Although many people feel more bewildered than ever when they hear seemingly contradictory advice about different diets, there is actually a convergence of recommendations that is evolving. While some significant differences remain, a greater consensus is emerging among nutrition experts than most people realize.

An optimal diet is one that is low in fat (because fat, whatever the type, has 9 calories per gram versus only 4 calories per gram for protein and carbohydrates). When you eat less fat, you consume fewer calories without having to eat less food, because the food is less dense in calories, as well as low in refined carbohydrates.

Also, an optimal diet is low in refined carbohydrates. When you remove fiber and bran, you turn an unrefined carbohydrate into a refined one. The fiber and bran fill you up before you consume too many calories—you can only eat so many apples without getting full—but you can consume virtually unlimited amounts of refined carbohydrates such as sugar without getting full. And because refined carbohydrates are absorbed quickly, they cause blood glucose levels to spike which, in turn, leads to repeated insulin surges and, over time, may lead to insulin resistance diabetes.

Whole grains are rich in fiber which slows the absorption of food, causing blood glucose levels to be more stable and actually reducing the incidence of diabetes. Unfortunately, many studies of "low-fat diets" are often very high in refined carbohydrates. It's low in trans fatty acids and saturated fats and with enough fish oil to provide the good fats of omega-3 fatty acids.

People have a spectrum of choices. To the degree that you eat a diet higher in fruits, vegetables, whole (unrefined) grains, legumes, soy products, some fatty fish like salmon, low in fat, low in refined carbohydrates and served with love, you're likely to look better, feel better, lose weight and gain health.

Disclaimer: I lecture and write books on the benefits of healthy low-fat diets, including my newest book, "The Spectrum," (Ballantine) but I do not endorse or receive royalties from any products other than books.

URL: http://www.newsweek.com/id/146641
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  #52   ^
Old Thu, Jul-17-08, 08:14
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LessLiz LessLiz is offline
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Dear ole Dean is another one I'm feeling sorry for. All those researchers out there talking about what a well done study it was....

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  #53   ^
Old Thu, Jul-17-08, 08:20
jschwab jschwab is offline
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Did the NYT get the obese part wrong, because I haven't read anywhere else that the participants were obese. More likely overweight and maybe members of the Israeli military considering where they were stationed? Not likely to all be obese.

Janine

EDITED: I looked again - BMI had to be at least 27, so not necessarily obese.
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  #54   ^
Old Thu, Jul-17-08, 08:24
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Judynyc Judynyc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ornish
In addition, in the "Atkins diet" that was tested, "the participants were counseled to choose vegetarian sources of fat and protein and to avoid trans fat." A vegetarian Atkins diet? Most people associate an Atkins diet with bacon, butter and brie, not a plant-based diet like the one I recommend.


Would someone please explain to me the "choose vegetarian sources of fat and protein"????

why would they tell them to do atkins vegetarian? It makes no sense to me at all!!
this has got to be wrong!! IMO, it should say "lean protein" But what do I know.
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  #55   ^
Old Thu, Jul-17-08, 08:26
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Donna7 Donna7 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moggsy
This study will change nothing on its own. It's not the first time a study indicated that low carb was safe and more effective for weight loss than low fat or low calorie.

I'd love to see a steady barrage in the media of "maybe Atkins was right all along" stories. I'd also like to see something that would make the tendency to temper these stories (or in this case, the study itself) with caution about meat and saturated fat. But I suppose we all would.


*sigh* I'm afraid you're right...just reading Taubes and seeing how many other studies have been twisted to report what's PC testifies to that.

I was curious where the 40% figure came from...did you read that somewhere in the study, Regina? I didn't see it, although it sounds reasonable if 35% was fat, leaving 25% for protein. But with 1500-1800 calories, that's still only 150-180g carbs...half the 300-375 recommended in the 2000-2500 calorie American dietary guidelines.

I'd be curious to see what the blood glucose markers looked like in the diabetics at the two month point, after being on induction-levels of carbs for that time frame. Doesn't look like they checked at two months, though...in fact, the only glucose markers I can see quoted in the study are at 24 months. Wish I could see those earlier numbers!
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  #56   ^
Old Thu, Jul-17-08, 08:44
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Wifezilla Wifezilla is offline
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Quote:
I'm also very skeptical of the quality of data in this study. For example, the investigators reported that those on the "low-fat" diet consumed 200 fewer calories per day—or 10,000 fewer calories per year—than those on the Mediterranean diet, yet people lost more weight on the Mediterranean diet. That's physiologically impossible.


Reason #416 Dean Ornish is a dufus.

Humans do not COMBUST food, they DIGEST IT. A calorie is a unit of energy caused by combustion. Digestion involves a lot more than lighting something on fire and seeing how much heat is given off. It is not only physically possible to lose weight with more calories, it is done every stinking day by low carbers all over the world.
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  #57   ^
Old Thu, Jul-17-08, 08:48
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triplemom triplemom is offline
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I saw that report on CNN yesterday. Pretty cool!
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  #58   ^
Old Thu, Jul-17-08, 09:06
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big_loser big_loser is offline
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doesnt seem to have made it to the UK yet. i searched bbc for low carb and its bringing up old stories such as 'low carb diet health risk fears' and 'low carb diet cuts heart energy'

tut
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  #59   ^
Old Thu, Jul-17-08, 09:10
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ReginaW ReginaW is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jschwab
Did the NYT get the obese part wrong, because I haven't read anywhere else that the participants were obese. More likely overweight and maybe members of the Israeli military considering where they were stationed? Not likely to all be obese.

Janine

EDITED: I looked again - BMI had to be at least 27, so not necessarily obese.


The average BMI was 31 according to the abstract and full-text data.
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  #60   ^
Old Thu, Jul-17-08, 09:13
susieq0613 susieq0613 is offline
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I 'googled' this and found Ornish's response saying the study was flawed. (here is the snot's response)

I'm also very skeptical of the quality of data in this study. For example, the investigators reported that those on the "low-fat" diet consumed 200 fewer calories per day—or 10,000 fewer calories per year—than those on the Mediterranean diet, yet people lost more weight on the Mediterranean diet. That's physiologically impossible.

In addition, in the "Atkins diet" that was tested, "the participants were counseled to choose vegetarian sources of fat and protein and to avoid trans fat." A vegetarian Atkins diet? Most people associate an Atkins diet with bacon, butter and brie, not a plant-based diet like the one I recommend.

Then there's the question of what constitutes a "low-fat" diet. The one used in the NEJM study was not very low in fat. It was based on the American Heart Association (AHA) guidelines, which I have long criticized as not being enough of a change in diet to show much benefit. In earlier studies, as in this one, the AHA diet did not cause much of a reduction in either blood cholesterol levels, weight or blood sugar, so it's not surprising that the new NEJM study reported that the Atkins and Mediterranean diets were more successful at reducing these levels. In the Womens Health Initiative study, the AHA diet didn't do much to prevent heart disease, colon cancer or breast cancer, either.

My colleagues and I at the nonprofit Preventive Medicine Research Institute and the University of California, San Francisco, have studied for more than three decades the effects of diets much lower in fat (10 percent) than the one used in NEJM study as well as lower in refined carbohydrates and higher in fruits, vegetables, whole grains, legumes and soy products.

We reported in a randomized, controlled clinical trial published in the Journal of the American Medical Association a 24-pound weight loss after one year and 13-pound average weight loss after five years in a group of men and women, much more than the 9.7 to 10.3 pounds lost in the new NEJM study. These findings were replicated in larger demonstration projects as well.

Using state-of-the-art measures, in a series of randomized controlled trials, we found that this low-fat diet (plus moderate exercise and stress management techniques) caused reversal of coronary heart disease after only one month, even more reversal after one year, and still more improvement after five years. We also found that it could stop or even reverse the progression of early prostate cancer. Our latest study, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, showed that these diet and lifestyle changes caused beneficial changes in gene expression in over 500 genes in just three months-"turning on" disease-preventing genes and "turning off" genes that promote heart disease, cancer, and other illnesses. This is why Medicare is now covering intensive lifestyle programs such as the one I recommend.

However, studies of people who go on an Atkins diet showed that their heart disease actually worsens when heart disease was actually measured rather than just risk factors.

In other words, improved health, not just weight, is important.

The current NEJM study statement that the low-carbohydrate Atkins diet has more favorable effects on HDL-cholesterol levels is based on the observation that HDL-cholesterol levels are higher on an Atkins diet than on a low-fat diet. Remember, HDL is just a risk factor for heart disease. We measured the effects of a healthy low-fat diet on actual disease states, not just on risk factors. As I have written about before, there is tremendous confusion about what HDL does among both health professionals, as well as in the general public. There is often a simplistic view that HDL is good, so that anything that raises HDL is good for you, and anything that lowers it is bad for you. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Your body makes HDL to remove excessive cholesterol from your blood and tissues, a process known as "reverse cholesterol transport." Think of HDL as the garbage trucks of your body. HDL transports cholesterol back to your liver where it is metabolized and removed from your body. Your body's ability to make more garbage trucks (i.e., raise your HDL) is, in part, genetically determined. Some people can make more garbage trucks than others.

Most Americans eat a diet that's relatively high in saturated fat and cholesterol—i.e., a lot of "garbage." Those people who have a lot of garbage trucks—in other words, who have high HDL levels—are more efficient at getting rid of extra fat and cholesterol in their diet. As a result, they have a lower risk of a heart attack or stroke than those who eat a high-fat, high-cholesterol diet who have lower HDL levels. However, the relationship of HDL to risk of heart disease and stroke assumes that people are not changing their diet.

Not everything that raises HDL is good for you. For example, if you increase the amount of fat and cholesterol in your diet (e.g., an Atkins diet), you may increase your HDL because your body is trying to get rid of the extra "garbage" (fat and cholesterol) by increasing the number of available garbage trucks (HDL) if you are genetically able to do so. Eating a stick of butter will raise HDL in those who are able to do so, but that does not mean that butter is good for your heart. It isn't.

Not everything that lowers HDL is bad for you. If you change from a high-fat, high-cholesterol diet to a healthy low-fat, low-cholesterol diet, your HDL levels may stay the same or even decrease because there is less need for it. When you have less garbage, you need fewer garbage trucks to remove it, so your body may make less HDL. Thus, a reduction in HDL on a low-fat diet is not harmful. We know this is true because instead of just measuring risk factors like HDL, we measured what actually happens to the progression of coronary heart disease in people who went on diets that were very low in "garbage"—i.e., very low in cholesterol, saturated fat, total fat and refined carbohydrates and high in fruits, vegetables, whole grains, legumes and soy products.

Their HDL levels came down by 9 percent after one year, but their LDL ("bad") cholesterol levels came down even more, by an average of 40 percent. None of these patients was taking cholesterol-lowering drugs. As mentioned above, even though their HDL levels decreased, these patients showed reversal of their heart disease using state-of-the-art measures.

A low HDL in the context of a healthy low-fat diet has a very different prognostic significance than a low HDL in someone eating a high-fat, high-cholesterol diet. People living in countries such as Asia that consume a low-fat diet have low HDL levels yet among the lowest rates of heart disease in the world.

It's time to call a truce in the diet wars. Although many people feel more bewildered than ever when they hear seemingly contradictory advice about different diets, there is actually a convergence of recommendations that is evolving. While some significant differences remain, a greater consensus is emerging among nutrition experts than most people realize.

An optimal diet is one that is low in fat (because fat, whatever the type, has 9 calories per gram versus only 4 calories per gram for protein and carbohydrates). When you eat less fat, you consume fewer calories without having to eat less food, because the food is less dense in calories, as well as low in refined carbohydrates.

Also, an optimal diet is low in refined carbohydrates. When you remove fiber and bran, you turn an unrefined carbohydrate into a refined one. The fiber and bran fill you up before you consume too many calories—you can only eat so many apples without getting full—but you can consume virtually unlimited amounts of refined carbohydrates such as sugar without getting full. And because refined carbohydrates are absorbed quickly, they cause blood glucose levels to spike which, in turn, leads to repeated insulin surges and, over time, may lead to insulin resistance diabetes.

Whole grains are rich in fiber which slows the absorption of food, causing blood glucose levels to be more stable and actually reducing the incidence of diabetes. Unfortunately, many studies of "low-fat diets" are often very high in refined carbohydrates. It's low in trans fatty acids and saturated fats and with enough fish oil to provide the good fats of omega-3 fatty acids.

People have a spectrum of choices. To the degree that you eat a diet higher in fruits, vegetables, whole (unrefined) grains, legumes, soy products, some fatty fish like salmon, low in fat, low in refined carbohydrates and served with love, you're likely to look better, feel better, lose weight and gain health.

Disclaimer: I lecture and write books on the benefits of healthy low-fat diets, including my newest book, "The Spectrum," (Ballantine) but I do not endorse or receive royalties from any products other than books.

so....that's the spiel

Sue

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