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  #466   ^
Old Fri, Feb-22-08, 12:42
rightnow's Avatar
rightnow rightnow is offline
Every moment is NOW.
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Plan: LC (ketogenic)
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Quote:
Myers noted that his research team has made all of its data publicly available, meaning that other scientists are likely to use the information to perform all sorts of additional studies such as these.

That's the best part. I wish *all* science would do this.

PJ
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  #467   ^
Old Fri, Feb-22-08, 21:53
Beth1708 Beth1708 is offline
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Plan: Just no carbs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kneebrace
Look it's all just opinion anyway, your's, mine, Gary Taubes'. Sooner or later we'll discover who's right. Can you accept that at least?


I realize it has been days since this post, but I wanted to answer it, since I had just complained about Stuart not responding to my points.

I can certainly accept that there is much that we don't know about diet, nutrition, disease, evolution and all sorts of stuff. Happily, as you say, we are learning more often, which is very nice.

Or, to answer your question more succinctly, sure.

Beth
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  #468   ^
Old Wed, Feb-27-08, 09:40
RawNut's Avatar
RawNut RawNut is offline
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Plan: Very Low Carb Paleo
Stats: 270/185/180 Male 72 inches
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElleH
OMG! You mean *I* actually contributed something to this debate! Now I'm blushing!

I agree that's hard to think of my body as a concrete machine. I really don't think of it that way! I think of it as something I'll never understand! Like why is it, after a week or so on very low carb, I start to feel really REALLY badly. No energy, cravings, emotional wreck. I can eat all the fat and protein I can hold and I still feel worse and worse. Then I binge on carbs and I actually feel BETTER--not worse? What is up with that? (Stuart, I *know* it's unhealthy! I know I'm hurting myself every time I do it. At least I'm down to every 2 weeks now instead of twice a week, that's GOT to mean something!!! I'm starting to look at it as possibly a symptom of something else, since it is so predictable, and thinking maybe VLC isn't for me. I have to be very careful, however, which carbs I choose and how many. How many carbs do you eat when you eat, Stuart?)

I have heard that if one has adrenal fatigue, that VLCarb will make the person feel horrible and that eating carbs actually helps them to have better adrenal function. Not too many, of course. (Diana Schwarzbein) I just need to find the right daily number for me, somehow.



Very enlightening!

I've been looking for the reason some people never seem to be able to keto-adapt on zero carb. That's not it at all! Adrenalin is needed to release FFA so it makes perfect sense that people with adrenal fatigue would have less energy without carbs in their diets.

Thanks!
Craig
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  #469   ^
Old Wed, Feb-27-08, 11:56
ElleH ElleH is offline
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Plan: PP/Atkins Maintenance
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Thanks for the explanation re: adrenalin being needed to release the FFA's. I was wondering what the connection might be, since Dr Schwarzbein never really explained *why* it could happen that way (VLC makes some people feel worse), other than to say VLC really stresses the adrenals. The key for those so affected is to find the personal level (and choices) of carbs that makes them feel better w/o triggering cravings or weight gain.
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  #470   ^
Old Wed, Feb-27-08, 12:01
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RawNut
Very enlightening!

I've been looking for the reason some people never seem to be able to keto-adapt on zero carb. That's not it at all! Adrenalin is needed to release FFA so it makes perfect sense that people with adrenal fatigue would have less energy without carbs in their diets.

Thanks!
Craig


I wonder if sky diving might serve... that'd probably cause me to release a bit of andrenaline.
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  #471   ^
Old Wed, Feb-27-08, 12:04
ElleH ElleH is offline
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Plan: PP/Atkins Maintenance
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The point is not to find ways to "make" the adrenals produce more adrenalin--it won't work anyway, which is why exercise makes the person with AF feel worse and not better. The point is to let them "rest" so they can heal.
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  #472   ^
Old Wed, Feb-27-08, 12:24
RawNut's Avatar
RawNut RawNut is offline
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Plan: Very Low Carb Paleo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElleH
Thanks for the explanation re: adrenalin being needed to release the FFA's. I was wondering what the connection might be, since Dr Schwarzbein never really explained *why* it could happen that way (VLC makes some people feel worse), other than to say VLC really stresses the adrenals. The key for those so affected is to find the personal level (and choices) of carbs that makes them feel better w/o triggering cravings or weight gain.


I'm actually in the process of reading GCBC and had just read about the role of adrenalin in the release of fatty acids when I recalled your post. Adrenally fatigued people no doubt lose fat at a slower rate.
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  #473   ^
Old Wed, Feb-27-08, 12:27
RawNut's Avatar
RawNut RawNut is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
I wonder if sky diving might serve... that'd probably cause me to release a bit of andrenaline.


LOL! Scare the fat out of those of us who can produce enough of it.
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  #474   ^
Old Wed, Feb-27-08, 12:34
ElleH ElleH is offline
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I really need to pull out my copy and try to finish it. I read the obesity section, obviously not very thoroughly b/c I didn't pick up on what you pointed out!!! It was preaching to choir for me, and I should have asked for something different for xmas for that $30!
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  #475   ^
Old Wed, Feb-27-08, 13:14
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Wifezilla Wifezilla is offline
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There was a whole list of hormones that cause fat release and that darn insulin that negates all those other hormones.

I was thinking of sky diving and horror movies as a way to get things moving as I was reading that chapter....LOL
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  #476   ^
Old Sat, Nov-01-08, 06:48
mineralman mineralman is offline
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Taubes doesn't know what he talks about and what he did with this book is not serious research but cheesy cherry picking.

Taubes claims that carbs/glucose are recognized as the sole responsable
for insulin secretion. The fact that he doesn't seem to know or understand that as soon as we consume 1 gram of protein our insulin goes up because the role of insulin is also to metabolize proteins makes Taubes the most ignorant writer on nutrition ever.

What Taubes claims about insulin increasing fat storage is not only scientifically undemonstrable but also completely illogical and counterproductive to body survival.

There's a reason why the body stores excess calories as fat
and burn that fat where there's not enough dietary calories.
The reason is that this system is perfect and precise and allows
the best survival in whatever situation.

If really lowering one macronutrients (carbohydrates) would
result in less fat storage during excessive caloric consumption and more fat loss during defective caloric consumption, it would be the biggest metabolical flaw of the body and we would not be alive today.

Maybe it doesn't seem clear to our sedentary and glutton generation but the ability of the body to store excess calories as fat is a key of our survival. So is the ability to burn body fat at a steady rate, neither slower or faster occording to how many carbs one eats.

Have you ever wondered why insulin is high after eating proteins
or carbohydrates? Insulin is high because it is supposed to send
the amino acids and the glucose molecules in the cells.

Insulin is not a fat storage hormone !

Insulin is a transporter which either transports nutrients to the cells
or either transport fats to the adipocytes. It can't do both at the same time.

When there are amino acids and/or glucose in the blood insulin is secreted to transport these nutrients to the cells. Once the job is done insulin goes back to normal levels.

If the cells are full (hence an excess of calories) insulin tranports the molecules to the adipocytes where fat is stored.

It's absolutely ignorant and unscientific to believe that insulin can
trigger fat storage per se, even if there's no excess of calories and
that insulin means high storage.

Maybe you don't know that insulin also stores proteins as fat if there's an excess of calories. And maybe you don't know that a protein called ASP store dietary fat as fat if there's an excess of calories.

Dietary fat is glycerol and fatty acids and body fat is glycerol and fatty acid. In other words dietary fat remains the most easy to store as fat for the body and even if you eat nothing but butter, if you eat an excess of calories from butter, you gain weight, period.

The convertion of carbohydrates to fat is a very weak and irrelevant pathway. Under normal condition carbohydrates are never coverted to fat.
Something is needed to trigger such pathway and to increase the efficiency of carbs to fat conversion. This something is "too many calories"

But even if someone accepted the unscientific belief that insulin
triggers fat storage even when calories are normal or low, the whole
idea still would not make any sense.

If you eat carbs and the body instead of burning those calories store them as fat where your body is supposed to get the calories to function? From the stored body fat!

Hence if really insulin would trigger a fat storing mode it would
still promote fat loss by FORCING the body to use the body fat calories
instead of the carb calories as they're being stored and can't be burned.

If instead one believes that the body store carbohydrates calories
as body fat (just because of insulin presence) but doesn't take the
calories from body fat burning, then one must believe that the body
can't get the energy it needs to survive from carbohydrates.

If that scenario were true than having high insulin immediately after eating carbs would kill you in a matter of hours.

Both the ideas are completely ridiculous and the only option is that
indeed INSULIN HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BODY FAT AND WEIGHT GAIN.

There are an host of fat storing enzymes, proteins and hormones in the body and their job is to store EXCESS CALORIES as body fat.

If there's no EXCESS CALORIES there's nothing to store. Storing normal calories that are not in excess would either result in almost instant death or in weight loss.

Even without looking at the long term metabolic ward studies that show that there's no difference in weight gain or weight loss when a group
of people consumes a certain amount of calories as high-carb meals
and another group consumes the same amount of calories as high-fat low-carb meals or the studies that show that feeding the same amount of calories to people with chronically high insulin levels has no effect in their fat gain compared to feeding the same amount of calories to people
with low insulin levels; it is simple a matter of logic.

His ideas on exercise are absurd. All studies show that when diet is accompained by exercise even if exercise increases appetite the calories
intake (mediated by this appetite) is still lower than the calories consumed during the exercise. In other words exercise does promote fat loss.

Not to mention that many people lose weight from diet just to find
themselves switching from overweight and fat to skinny and flabby.
The reason is that dieting and losing weight is just a component
of what is needed to become lean, thin and healthy.

Building lean body mass and preventing lead body mass loss while losing fat is even more important than dieting to really take advantage of the fat loss. Many people are dissatisfied with their fat loss because losing fat just allow them to uncover the skinny person below that fat. It's muscles that make people (either men, women or children) lean, firm and toned and remove the flabbiness and sagginess.

Fat-phobia was a nonsense but this carb-phobia is not any different
and almost dumber. Low carb diets work. They work because fat
(for many) is satiating and filling.

People who are lean by nature and never seem to gain fat are
gifted. They're not genetically gifted though! Their gift is an intact
instinct that allows them to know when they're in an energy balance and
to eat accordingly to such instinct.

Many people seem to restore such instinct when they lower their carbs intake and raise their fat intake and it makes sense, since we were never meant to consume 10% fat diets that only by artificially removing the fat from every food on earth can be accomplished.

Also people who have problems with their sugar metabolism become victims of the physiologically raveous hunger. Decreasing carbs, increasing fats and getting a better glycemic control allow them to remove such ravenous unhealthy hunger.

There are good reasons to choose to lower carbs and eat more fats.
The nonsensical, illogical and (if true) counterproductive to survival,
magical effect of low carb diets is not one of them!

Weight gain and fat gain still depend on an energy balance and besides
the studies and evidences proving this, it is also the only logical
way the body could work as any other way would result in metabolically
dangerous messy circumstances.

Carbohydrates and insulin are not evil and without insulin we would be dead. And this is way people on no-carb diets still have as much insulin in their body as any person eating 50% carbs.

If you look at the data from 100 years ago you can see that we ate MORE CARBS and consumed little less calories but were very physical active and daily sedentarity was unknown. Whenever we wanted to reach a place, fix something, spend free time, spend time with friends, play, work ... it involved physical activity.

Only nowadays physical activity is such an option and a person doesn't
get bored or does get things done even without physical activities.
We consume more calories and are very sedentary and this is enough to explain the weight loss incidence of the last years.
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  #477   ^
Old Sat, Nov-01-08, 08:14
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
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Quote:
Taubes doesn't know what he talks about and what he did with this book is not serious research but cheesy cherry picking.

LOL! /sarcasm Yeah, he's such a hack. You clearly out-credential him.

Quote:
Freelance writer Gary Taubes won his third Science in Society award with his Science magazine story, “The soft science of dietary fat.” Following his prize winning technique of evaluating how inadequate scientific tools are used to dictate important national health issues — what people should eat — he once again shows there is still much to be mined in a topic long considered settled and indisputable. With painstaking research and in-depth reporting, he challenges the accepted wisdom on dietary fat and displays the chinks in its armor. Many of his reported findings are still controversial, yet judges lauded his risk-taking reporting, making us think twice about obsessing about our dietary choices.

Last edited by Nancy LC : Sat, Nov-01-08 at 09:24.
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  #478   ^
Old Sat, Nov-01-08, 09:09
Wifezilla's Avatar
Wifezilla Wifezilla is offline
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Nothing like digging up an old thread for a gold old fashioned rant.

Quote:
If you look at the data from 100 years ago you can see that we ate MORE CARBS and consumed little less calories

Wrong-o Keebler. We ate MORE fat and MORE calories.
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  #479   ^
Old Sat, Nov-01-08, 15:58
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LarryAJ LarryAJ is offline
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Plan: PP/PPLP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mineralman
Taubes doesn't know what he talks about
<snip>
And YOUR qualifications are ??

Since you list NO books that you have read, I assume you have not read any of Dr. Mike Eades books and probably not any of his blog. In one of Dr. Eades blogs, he talked about the fact that he was reviewing the book Taubes was then writing. Dr. Eades gave the book HIGH marks for being accurate.

I, and many of the people that post here, have a high regard for Dr. Eades. That comes from his clinical experience and his blogs where he shows how poor some research is by looking at the data and then at the conclusions that do not have the support of the data.

If Dr. Eades agrees with most of Taubes, that is good enough for me - AND I think for most of the rest posting here.
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  #480   ^
Old Sat, Nov-01-08, 17:55
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girlbug2 girlbug2 is offline
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Plan: Ketogenic paleo
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"most ignorant writer on nutrition ever"?
Okay that lost me right there.

I normally want to give the other side a chance to make a well-reasoned point, but not when it starts off like that . And then goes on to become a huge ramble that's way out of proportion. Grinding an axe much?
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