Spend some time in Pittsburgh and you can add "yinz" to your list of second person plurals!

Fernie

You guys are a trip! LOL.

Friday.... I don't know about the glutamine. I read that it's NOT a good idea on ketogenic diets because it can seriously interfere with ketosis. I think I'm living proof that it "can" happen, actually, because when I first started taking it, I would be knocked out of ketosis. I was forgetting to take it on some days...and was magically back IN ketosis. I began watching a bit closer and realized that EVERY time I would take glucosamine it would soundly knock me out---right into neutral.

don't know if it's like that for everyone, but it sure was for me. I wish I could remember were I read that...darn it. I think it was on this board somewhere.

Also, to keep the carbs at 20g, not sure I could do the shakes. I'm a firm believer in those hidden carbs in those things. I tend to stall big time using them. Darn it again.

Thanks for the heads-up, though, everyone. I'm still trying to figure out what to do---in the meantime I'm treating this like induction, only following the CKD parameters I have....which still confuses me! Do I use the parameters and up the fat each day, or do I just pick one and stay with it? Aye-aye-aye.

ok i think you are talking apples and oanges here.




Are you taking glutamine or glucosamine?

I take glutamine in capsule form and it is in my protein shake too so i get about 5 grams a day. If you read trainerdan's response here http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthre...&threadid=59695
he talks about taking well over 10 grams a day. Atkins even recommends it so i cant see where it would have that much of an impact on ketosis.

Nat, could you please?

I think that this 30-g (or whatever) quantity of protein is a datum that's interpreted and misinterpreted depending on what the interpreting person wants you to believe.

If I am not mistaken, this number came from nitrogen retention studies. Then we have to consider whether they were looking at active or inactive persons and what diet they were eating. Lyle made a very good case in his book showing that protein requirements are inversely related to the amount of carbohydrates one is eating - less carbs, more protein required, and vice versa. If those studies were done on persons eating a carb-containing non-ketogenic diet (as I'm nearly certain they were because hardly anyone studies ketogenic diets), then this number is moot for our CKD- and LC dieting purposes.

Activity obviously matters in both quantity and quality. Cardio-only exercise does not promote muscle growth/remodeling to a significant degree. Weight training clearly does.

I've gotten more concerned with that number because even though nitrogen retention may be showing that all 30, 60, 90, 120, or however much protein is used, this does not mean that it's not used to produce glucose as well, which would prevent ketosis. I have a damn hard time getting into ketosis (might have to do with low bf), and recently I've split my meals so that each contains only 40 grams or so. It wasn't a strictly controlled experiment but seems like I cut 1/2-1 days from the time it takes me to get there. Once I am there, it seems not to matter as much. I've tested this and found that after 4-5 days of eating keto and working out, I can eat 150 grams of protein in a sitting and ketones go up. So technically on Fridays I can skip the mayonnaise and have a big tuna party; I pass on the fun though.

Anyways, just rambling...

I've never really figured out the glutamine deal. It's glucogenic (i.e., can be converted to glucose), causes more insulin release than other amino acids do, and is used by the body as a nitrogen carrier. All that could contribute to getting kicked out of ketosis but exactly how much glutamine are we talking here? Even if you eat an ounce of glutamine, that's only an ounce of glucose that can be produced, and it takes time to do so there would not be a big spike. Maybe there's a study on insulin spike after glutamine ingestion?

West - I'll try to find the links Nat posted for you. I don't want her to have to dig em up twice.

Back soonish,

Friday

Here's a little info


When you ask so nice, how could I not?

It's not pubmed but here it is

N

L-Glutamine. I've tested this over and over and over again for about a month, and I was knocked out every time. Maybe it's not like that for everyone, but it sure was for me! It's like how some people can eat Atkins bars and not be affected at all, while it knocks others out of ketosis within an hour. I guess our bodies just react differently to different things.

West....

I know that Atkins warns his patients that too much protein WILL convert to glucose and store as fat. One of the "stall-busters" that he recommends is to cut back on protein and up the fat. I've asked my dietition friend this question and she said the same thing----too much is too much, and ANY "excess" can impede weight loss by converting the excess protein into glucose----which stores as fat. She said that she's used Atkins to lose about 15lbs and that she feels confident that excessive protein could be the answer to the odd phenomenon of being in ketosis and not losing...which happens frequently on that plan. Tara also says that any misconceptions about low carb diets (Atkins, etc.) being too hard on the kidneys could be from people eating an excess of protein. She also says this is her opinion and that she's not done studies, etc. (standard disclaimer I guess..lol).

The Atkins Center Nutritionists tell people that 6-8oz of protein per meal is ideal, but as you lose to adjust what you're eating accordingly, or otherwise risk a stall.

well i have been on CKD/LC for 3 days now today is day 3. andi completely understand how hard it is to eat all the food needed. i dont even count the CALs as i know im no where near what the CKD calc said i should eat for my wieght. als o eat are high fat and high protein foods most of which have more fat then protein so by defult im eating 1.5 for 1 fat to protein. i dont have the numbers but i know its close.

its good to know about the whey i was actualy about to start eating that again.

i do wish i could split up my meals more but untill i get my own car i cant yet.

Yes, it IS difficult! I've broken down the meals somewhat, but not to 6 a day, but I'm trying to increase to at least 4 or 5.

I absolutely agree. The most common mistake people make when they do a lowcarb diet is going low on fat and high on protein. When I tell someone that I do a lowcarb diet, they usually say "Oh, so you just eat protein?"

It's easy to understand where that comes from - everyone has had it drummed into their heads that fat is bad.

The biggest bummer is that the med-sci-political complex assumes the same thing. When they come out with a study pointing a finger at lowcarb diets, it's nearly always a study based on an all-protein diet. All that stuff about kidney damage, acidosis, et al - well, I would not be too surprised if a high protein diet is indeed bad!

If you really tune into CKD, you'll be eating about 100-150 g of protein per day - hardly "high protein" by most measures.

When I started LC/CKD'ing I didn't bother with ketostix. Nor did I bother with getting the right fat/protein ratio. I just assumed that I'm in ketosis and everything is good. Was I surprised when after months of getting less than optimal results I finally got ketostix and discovered that I wasn't anywhere near.

I think that 6-8 oz of meat, fish, or poultry works out to be 35-50 g protein.

Good points, West. 145g of protein is a lot *to me*, and I have to break it up to eat it all. I also notice that on another board (Atkins) I go to a lot, those people grab protein for a snack. I'm sure they're getting in more than they need, most likely. But then again, what do I know?

I'm mostly wondering now about what to eat on the carb up phase. IF I do shakes for the protein portion----still sounds like a crash/starvation diet when I look at it like that----I'll have to eat candy all day? Oh god, please tell me I can vary this candy so I don't yak!

Please someone give me an idea of what to eat? This is what I've got so far....

Smarties (the pastel colored sugar candy in the clear wrapper).

Nat had a picture of other smarties (Canada?) that were chocolate! I COULD live with that!

Oh.. I forgot to ask: The carbs during the week...the 20g.. is there a specifice type of carb we're supposed to eat or avoid? In other words, on Atkins induction, you can't have nuts, berries, grains, etc., not even Atkins muffins, etc.

I'm SICK of salads!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Isn't it easier to just stick to 0? I have no experience with eating carbs during the week, so I can't tell ya...

Oh, heck no! LOL. My job means that I'm doing physical stuff practically all day long... broken into 2-3hr stints, but about 6 hours worth total...dance-related "training," gym, etc. I can barely hang onto this schedule with 20g a day. If I drop the carbs completely, it wont help weight loss...it will halt it. I kept my carbs too low on Atkins and had major stall-outs...at least that's what everyone says caused it.

I've always been told, and from what I've read, that for the body to take up the protein and use it----it has to be eaten with carbs or it doesn't metabolize properly.