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  #16   ^
Old Thu, Dec-23-10, 06:47
mathmaniac mathmaniac is offline
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Plan: Wingin' it.
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It's too bad that there are studies utilizing metabolic chambers, measuring activity, and those are not the studies that show metabolic advantage.

I overeat sometimes and lose weight and I am not a strict low-carber. I also count calories. What I've learned from my own experience is that the body responds over time so that eating a lot of calories several times, even, does not mean much when balanced against other more moderate meals. Yes, I HAVE lost weight eating pizza and donuts. 'Falling off the wagon' does not doom your diet, every diet coach will tell you. Once in awhile, it relieves the monotony. You get back on the horse.

Not only that, but I've lost weight eating only potatoes, lard, salt and butter, when potatoes were the only thing I could afford and I was a starving student. I also drank tap water. You can add in all the alcohol and mixers a partying student can handle - there are calories in those beverages, also! Par-tay! I did that, without gaining weight - it was a small part of my week. And I got thin enough to have other people worry about my weight.

Years ago, Dr. William Bennet wrote 'The Dieter's Dilemma' about what the thought was the 'set point theory' (the body clings to a certain weight and must be cajoled into changing it with diet and behavioral changes). He only had a few guidelines for losing weight - it didn't matter what diet - and one was to restrict yourself to a certain food or food group. You will lose weight because of the monotony while you have the 'freedom' to eat all you want of it. This applies to any food. It is why the cabbage soup diet works. It was recently demonstrated with the Twinkie diet and now the potato diet, and also the guy who ate nothing but fast food and lost weight.

By the way, I ate Kentucky Fried Chicken and pepsi-cola an entire summer and lost a lot of weight. I was a teenager. But my only source of food was food at the KFC where I worked. My best friend and I lived on food we took home (she was the cousin of the manager/owner and we were working all summer at his store), drank pepsi all night and played cards, got up in the morning and went to the store to eat fried chicken. All day! And lost weight. There was no other food to eat. Note: we ate plenty of mashed potatoes and biscuits, which were part of the KFC menu, too!

Did we eat 7000 calories of KFC three times a day? Even once a day? Since we were restricted to that food (it was tasty, too), we got tired of it. We even bought potato chips for snacking during our card games. It was junk food heaven. We probably added more calories by adding the variety of the chips than by helping ourselves to buckets of fried chicken. As soon as you add variety (as soon as your diet is not purely what you've been restricted to), you start putting on weight and adding calories. Boredom with the food group will do that.

It's not a capricious process. Low-carbers and other dieters who are on 'isocaloric' diets lose the same amount of weight.

'Ad libitum' when you are restricted to eating only a certain food group is practically meaningless. Eat all the eggs you want. But don't eat anything else. Eat all the nectarines you want - knock yourself out - but don't eat anything else.

What you need to see, for days and weeks on end, is a dieter who can be proven to consume 7000 calories a day (and above) and doesn't do anything but watch TV and lay around the house. Weigh the food and consume it and have proof (on metabolic wards, in studies done by obesity researchers, no food is consumed without producing proof).

No fair being bulimic, either! Then you will know for sure that day in, day out, high levels of caloric intake, if they are zero carb, are an awesome way to lose weight, demonstrating a metabolic advantage that the world has yet to discover and has to be seen to be believed.

I'm waiting for a scientist who will show that.
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  #17   ^
Old Thu, Dec-23-10, 07:07
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
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I truly don't understand this obsession with the calorie. People obviously vary greatly in their caloric intake, but it does not correlate with their body size at all!
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  #18   ^
Old Thu, Dec-23-10, 07:10
mathmaniac mathmaniac is offline
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Plan: Wingin' it.
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It's not an obsession. It's a unit of measurement, utilized by obesity researchers when they conduct studies. It's why the words, 'isocaloric' and 'hypocaloric,' (which are the least-noticed words in a study, sometimes) are meaningful.
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  #19   ^
Old Thu, Dec-23-10, 08:45
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teaser teaser is offline
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MathManiac said;

Quote:
'Ad libitum' when you are restricted to eating only a certain food group is practically meaningless. Eat all the eggs you want. But don't eat anything else. Eat all the nectarines you want - knock yourself out - but don't eat anything else.


I agree with you here... except for the "meaningless" part. There might be an important difference between eating to appetite and not eating to appetite. Which is more stressful? Eating 1600 calories of a mixed diet, when your body wants 3000 calories of the same food, or eating 1600 calories that your body is actually satisfied with? We can call it boredom, or we can say that the food is more satiating. Or we could say that excess variety might make food less satiating. When they put rats on cafeteria diets, the greater the variety of food offered, the more the rats will eat (and they get fatter, as well.) The effect of a bland or varied diet on intake throws into question comments like this one;

Quote:
"Food acceptance and the urge to eat in rats are found to have relatively little to do with 'a local condition of the gastro-intestinal canal,' little to do with the 'organs of taste,' and very much to do with quantitative deficiencies of currently metabolized materials"--in other words, the relative presence of usable fuel in the bloodstream.


That's from GCBC, the part in quotes is from Edward Adolph. There's sort of a problem with this statement; studies show that flavour and variety does affect food consumption.

Just before that last quote;

Quote:
The question most relevant to weight regulation concerns the quantity of food consumed. Is it determined by some minimal caloric requirement, by how the food tastes, or by some other physical factor--like stomach capacity, as is still commonly believed? This was the question addressed in the 1940s by Richter and Edward Adolph of the University of Rochester, when they did the experiments we discussed earlier, feeding rats chow that had been diluted with water or clay, or infusing nutrients directly into their stomachs. Their conclusion was that eating behaviour is fundamentally driven by calories and the energy requirements of the animal. "Rats will make every effort to maintain their daily caloric intake at a fixed level," Richter wrote.


Problem here-- if flavour increases body fat setpoint, as well as appetite, then replacing a monotonous chow diet with a monotonous chow diet that's been watered down, or laced with clay, wouldn't reveal this. Infusing nutrients directly into the stomach sort of bypasses flavour entirely. Immediate energy need is shown to be a determinant of appetite, but the idea that flavour has been ruled out as a co-determinant seems faulty. Even if we assumed that immediate energy needs were the sole driver of appetite-- then if an intervention such as increased variety and flavour is shown to increase appetite, increasing variety and flavour must have a negative effect on the immediate availability of energy. Which would give the body a pretty good motive for increasing fat stores...
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  #20   ^
Old Thu, Dec-23-10, 09:35
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathmaniac
It's too bad that there are studies utilizing metabolic chambers, measuring activity, and those are not the studies that show metabolic advantage.

Give us one example, please.
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  #21   ^
Old Thu, Dec-23-10, 11:56
mathmaniac mathmaniac is offline
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Plan: Wingin' it.
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3941694

There is a metabolic advantage to cigarette smoking. Yep, there you have it. There are 99 studies resulting from the search 'metabolic chamber' in NCBI. I think that this is not really a complete collection because I've read other studies with Pima Indians as participants and they don't show up. The metabolic chamber studies of Pima Indians and their food intake are pretty interesting.

However, this is a good start. Of these, only one shows that by putting something in your mouth, you get a result that could be counted as a metabolic advantage - that would be the cigarette in your mouth. An effect that has not gone unnoticed in other studies; however, the metabolic chamber is nothing if not measurement and control - if control and measurement matters.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/13485309
A look at the metabolic chamber in 1957. There have been improvements - and fine-tuning, all reported with other studies, some showing up in the search, 'metabolic chamber.'
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  #22   ^
Old Thu, Dec-23-10, 11:59
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Valtor Valtor is offline
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Plan: VLC 4 days a week
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coachjeff
M Levac - So do you believe all people should be able to lose weight on a 5,000 calorie per day diet, as long as carbs are near zero and excess insulin producing amino acids aren't consumed, and therefore insulin is kept very low?

You totally discount calories as a factor entirely?

I mean gosh...even Dr Eades says calories do indeed count...and that LC gives AT BEST a 100 to 300 calorie "metabolic advantage." He has also discussed the fact that nuts and cheese are why many LCers stay FAT, due to the fact they are easy to overeat...DESPITE their low carb content.

You think Dr. Eades is wrong?

You can check this thread.

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=418824

The subject has been beaten to death and I think most people would agree that Martin's view did not come out on top.
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  #23   ^
Old Thu, Dec-23-10, 12:03
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Valtor Valtor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
I truly don't understand this obsession with the calorie. People obviously vary greatly in their caloric intake, but it does not correlate with their body size at all!
That's because people's caloric output and body composition varies greatly too.
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  #24   ^
Old Thu, Dec-23-10, 12:03
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Plan: VLC, mostly meat
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Maybe there's been a misunderstanding. We're talking about calories, not smoking, not the metabolic chamber, food. So give us an example of that kind of study. How about those studies you've read that talk about metabolic advantage with different diets, those would do?

However, it's interesting that you would link to a study that supports the idea that calories don't matter. I mean, smoking increases Eout? That's right out of Taubes' book.
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  #25   ^
Old Thu, Dec-23-10, 12:06
mathmaniac mathmaniac is offline
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Plan: Wingin' it.
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Watching the subject being beaten to death is painful.
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  #26   ^
Old Thu, Dec-23-10, 12:10
mathmaniac mathmaniac is offline
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Plan: Wingin' it.
Stats: 257/240.0/130 Female 65 inches
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Actually, what I said is that I'm waiting for the study that shows, with a metabolic chamber's environment, a metabolic advantage.

The avenue is wide open for such a study.

It does turn out that the effects of exercise have been measured with a metabolic chamber. And food, too. But nothing is a metabolic advantage. Until you bring in the cigarettes!

There are 99 studies for 'metabolic chamber,' as I said. And that's the one result I can see that shows putting something in your mouth (usually that would be calorie) would give a metabolic advantage.
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  #27   ^
Old Thu, Dec-23-10, 12:13
mathmaniac mathmaniac is offline
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Plan: Wingin' it.
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Valtor, don't forget hormones! And gender. And age.
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  #28   ^
Old Thu, Dec-23-10, 12:19
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Plan: VLC, mostly meat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathmaniac
Actually, what I said is that I'm waiting for the study that shows, with a metabolic chamber's environment, a metabolic advantage.

The avenue is wide open for such a study.

It does turn out that the effects of exercise have been measured with a metabolic chamber. And food, too. But nothing is a metabolic advantage. Until you bring in the cigarettes!

There are 99 studies for 'metabolic chamber,' as I said. And that's the one result I can see that shows putting something in your mouth (usually that would be calorie) would give a metabolic advantage.

Maybe we should update you on what the debate is all about. It's between calories and hormones. A metabolic advantage is precisely when hormones act independently of calories. If we have to smoke to produce the metabolic advantage, then we've proven that it exists. If smoking doesn't change the equation, then calories is all that matters. That's the debate, those are the arguments. When you start to talk about smoking and how it affects energy expenditure, you stop talking about calories. There's only two sides to the debate. It's either calories, or hormones. If it's calories, then smoking should have no effect whatsoever on energy systems. If it's hormones, then calories don't matter.

You said you read studies that didn't show a metabolic advantage. You cited one that shows a metabolic advantage. The other merely explains how the metabolic chamber works. Just give us one example of a metabolic chamber study that you read that does not show a metabolic advantage.
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  #29   ^
Old Thu, Dec-23-10, 12:22
mathmaniac mathmaniac is offline
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Posts: 6,639
 
Plan: Wingin' it.
Stats: 257/240.0/130 Female 65 inches
BF:yes!
Progress: 13%
Location: U.S.A.
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teaser,

I think that flavor and monotony go hand in hand. You will tire of flavor and call the diet 'monotonous'; the whole point of the Twinkie diet was to show that something people consider flavorful enough to buy as a snack becomes something you cannot overeat when it is a main part of a monotonous diet.

Yes, variety does stimulate appetite, because people crave a variety of flavor in addition to other things (texture is a good example). I vaguely remember reading somewhere that eating food all of the same color will make you less hungry, too.

If you can be satisfied drinking varying foods through a straw (as people do who have their jaws wired shut), you will eat more and more 'ad libitum.' But the texture of puree for weeks on end is going to lessen your appetite.

Also, stress and that motive for eating is a factor. The idea behind 'comfort food' is that it is NOT something given to you to satisfy an energy need. If people eat when stressed, they learn to deal with the stress-food connection while dieting. 'Chicken and Dumplings' are not the same as a can of tuna. Cold is not the same sensation as steaming hot or lukewarm, all of which are appreciated in different foods. For some reason, I like cold oatmeal lately and not hot. Don't know why and can't ask my body why!
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  #30   ^
Old Thu, Dec-23-10, 12:24
mathmaniac mathmaniac is offline
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Plan: Wingin' it.
Stats: 257/240.0/130 Female 65 inches
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Progress: 13%
Location: U.S.A.
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M Levac,
When I made my statement, I was talking about metabolic advantage. You're defining makes every response have to fit your argument. Well, good luck!

(I'll repeat myself - or maybe it wasn't clear: there are no studies that show a metabolic advantage, as measured using the metabolic chamber - I'm waiting for one.)

And speaking of pesky science and scientists: I'm off to have my boobs squished in a chamber of sorts - it's called a mammogram.

And - playing word games is not that interesting.

Last edited by mathmaniac : Thu, Dec-23-10 at 12:33.
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